Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Proof that the players DO NOT know what they want
Skedoozy wrote:
Yes, but it hurts 90% of the WS's who dont have 12 EXP points and rewards the 10% who do because they wont feel a hit at all. The only people who want this change are the ones who will not be effected by it poorly. It's good for them, not the game, and themselves are the onlything they care about.
I don't know why you are trying to make this personal, as if I'm a bad person or selfish because I think it's a good idea. I'll be just fine patch or no patch, don't worry about that. But the economy in this gameis a joke right now. Money for most people is pointless, that needs to be fixed. Right now the weapon market is flooded with maxed out weapons. I could probably go to 50 different weaponsmith shops on Ahazi and find a deviation of MAYBE a few points of damage or durability between all those shops. The WS's that have higher numbers have those numbers because they play a lot, probably spend a lot of time gathering resources, they don't make a schematic with anything less than all great successes, and maybe they have skill tapes. In my opinion those people deserve to have an advantage because they work for it.
Lets look at a real life situation. I own a Kimber .45 auto pistol. It is a customized pistol made by someone who used to be a champion pistol speed shooter.It is a better gun than a colt .45, and it's costs more. Does that mean EVERYONE is going to stop buying Colt .45's? No. IsKimber a bad person because he has the skills to makea better handgun than most other people? No. Of course some people will buy Kimber, because they can afford it, and some people can't. Granted, the economy of real life isn't totally wacked out, but you get the idea. There is always a market for your gun, you just have to find it.
The fact is, there needs to be some seperation between masters. I don't think being a master should just automatically make you as good as everyone else. If there are a few WS's on a server that just flat out make better guns that others, for whatever reason, so what. Do you think they are going to have the time or desire to supply the whole server?? I think not. There is always someone better than you or me. Get over it.
Gnosis wrote:
EdOWar wrote:
And who the hell are you to claim you speak for the 'silent' crafters? If 90% of the smiths on the forums opposed these changes, then sure as hell about the same percentage of 'silent' smiths oppose them too. It's called statistics, you may learn about it some day.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Wheee flames. You want to argue statistics with me? Alright lets do it. If you could somehow run a regression analysis to determine how well the views presented on the boards reflect the views of the games population you would end up with a low enough of an R-squared as to make the board's views statistically insignificant. The reason is pretty straightforward, posters on this forum are a self-selecting group, thus they can not be used as an accurate sample.
But I took your challenge. Previously on Wanderhome the best ABPHs that could be made were 20/40, today with 12 skill points I started pumping out 21/42s. I then dropped down to 11 skill points and made identical 21/42s. When I dropped down to 10 skill points I was back to making 20/40s. If I only used 3 skill points the result wasnt very good... so maybe you have a point there, lol. I love making T21s, its the rifleman in me, so I've messed around with them a bit today, I can make the same 416 T21 with 11 skill points that I can with 12 points, it just takes a few more attempted combines. With the introduction of WS toolkits you only need to come up with +7 skill point tapes to be at 11 points, I dont see how this is such a horrible burden on the community.
Look I have resources that date back to July, I mined them myself with my fleet of 10 personal harvestors, only a few k of each are left granted but when looking at this new system suddenly it makes a difference that I have a stock of the best of the best that has ever spawned. Isnt that the way it should be?
As it is now a smith who started on our server 6 weeks ago is almost indistinguishable from a smith who started 3 months ago and within a few points of a smith who started when the game went live. Complete market homogeny... this obviously is not the way the system was meant to work.
All right, you have a point that posters on the forums are a self selecting group. However, this doesn't mean that we aren't necessarily represenative of the entire crafting community. After all, it stands to reason that our concerns should be similar to concerns of most other crafters. And the reason many crafters don't post here is primarily because they don't even know the forums exist. If the forum community represents even 2 or 3% of the entire crafting community that would still be a valid enough sample for statistical purposes, even given that forum posters are self-selecting.
I also agree that a smith with the best resources and with maxed out skill tapes should have an advantage, and with the old system they did have an advantage. Just not an overwhelming advantage. If the new system goes live having the +2 experimentation points will be absolutely vital.
There is not currently complete market hegemony, even in the damage stat. Prior to the patch, there was still a few points difference in damage, but even greater difference in condition, accuracy and HAM costs. Now, you can put all 12 points into damage, but that doesn't leave anything to play with for durability, efficiency or accuracy. That sounds like less variation in product to me, not more.
However, the point may be moot. Unlessany new schematics are reverted with tomorrows hotfix the damage has alreadybeen done (my apologies to Ail, you were correct about this). Which may have been the devs purpose all along.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Gnosis wrote:
All the flaming rabid whiners who freaked out on these boards because of rumors and heresay are a bunch of mindless sheep.
LOL, there I said what every skilled smith is thinking today.
I have yet to make a weapons today that isnt better than what I made yesterday. Finally a way to distinguish the skilled veteren WS's from the masses of macroing holo-smiths.
As Raph Koster once said, "The players don't know what they want." He is proven right yet again.
I never said that a master weaponsmith who had the best resources and had spent 40 million credits (or more) to get his +2 experiment points would not make a slightly superior weapon.
What I *did* say is that only a MWS with +2 to experimentation would ever sell another single item post patch without losing money. You remember everyone quoting the rich get richer the poor get screwed? Thats is exactly what would happen post-nerf if this stays up. Now, to afford the new weapons, combat types would simply take a few more over-priced missions thus opening the faucets in an over-heating economy even more and AFK looters would sell even more skill tapes at even higher values further plunging the economy (what is left of it) into the chaos of rampant inflation. This would effectively gate new players without the means to get the lucrative missions or skill tapes from being either effective combat players or crafters until they spent 6 months grinding low-cost missions and the experience of their profession of choice. This is not fun, this is work. I hope it wasn't what the developers had in mind when they said they wanted to even the playing field for crafters (not true), fix the economy (not likely), and increase the variability of crafted items (not even possible since it takes more points to achieve the same results as before).
As it is, I'm sure you and other 12-point master craftsman are grinding away schematics today so that you can screw the economy for the next six months and get wealthy beyond your dreams in credits. After which, the combat balance set for the new more powerful weapons and armor will be out of whack and crash when those legacy items dry up. The only chance to fix this before it comepletely destroys the game is to remove the schematics made with the nerf when the nerf is removed tommorrow.
Vosscat wrote:
With this patch the average weaponsmith has been exposed, and they don't like it. If you want to be the best you need the absolute best resources that have spawned on your server, and 12 point experimentation. Stop whining about it, collect theseitems and start crafting, or recognize that you are not willing to do what others have andbecause of this youare average.
Before the patch it was oh so wonderful to know that all my time since the game went live, collecting the very best resources, yielded me 1 or 2 points of damagewhen compared to the new WS. Yippee.
But there are more average weaponsmithsthen there are great ones so the whininghas caused the devs to reverse their original plan. Too Bad.
WILDCAT
Bloodfin
I'm all for competition, but this system would reduce competition and give '+' smiths an overwhelming advantage over the rest of us who haven't camped the Bat Cave for weeks or bought 30 million credits off E-bay orhaven't been weaponsmiths since the game came out. It is a nerf. There are no two ways about it. I belong to a guild that consists of primarilty crafters, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM IS MAKING WORSE ITEMS THAN BEFORE. They have top-quality resources, and everyone I've talked to is a master. Weaponsmiths, doctors, combat medics, Bioengineers, armorsmiths--everyone.
No, 12 points should not be necessary to make satisfactory goods. No, the crafting nerf would not have repaired the damage done to the economy--it would have inflicted more. And no, the player base will never accept this change, no matter how much the greedy 12-point crafters dream of choking the life from the SWG goods market.
Logix, I salute you. Truly you are the best corresopndant we could hope for. Thank you for so accurately and intelligently relaying the voice of the vast majority. Thank you for keeping your sense through all this, and for knowing the dangers of the road ahead. Thankfully, we have escaped that road, and the pro-nerf (children, whiners, masochists, 12-point ego-freaks, etc.) will not get their wish of destroying the game for their own benefit.
Gnosis, you want to kick the dead horse into oblivian--you can't stand the fact that you can't reign supreme in WSing, well too bad for you. EVERYONE deserves a fun game and a rewarding experience, not just those who devote their entire lives to gathering skill tapes.
EdOWar wrote:
After all, it stands to reason that our concerns should be similar to concerns of most other crafters. And the reason many crafters don't post here is primarily because they don't even know the forums exist. If the forum community represents even 2 or 3% of the entire crafting community that would still be a valid enough sample for statistical purposes, even given that forum posters are self-selecting.Slim Vargo, Corbantis
For someone who levied a personal attack based on anothers knowledge of statistics you are surprisingly ignorant on the subject. You may think that it 'stands to reason' but a self-selecting sample group, unless it in itself forms the majority, can almost never be statistically significant. Period. This is about as basic a concept as there is in stats.
This board is not representative of the views of the community as a whole, not even close.
EDIT: fixed typo
Message Edited by Gnosis on 03-16-2004 06:50 PM
The Skill tapes need to me more easily obtainable... they are insanely expensive and If you don't belong to a guild or have a few friends willing to AFK Loot the hotspots where weaponsmithing tapes appear...you're basically SOL.
I'm a 11 point smith and I reject these changes. The only reason I am +11 is becauseI have a nice customer that lovingly handed to me a +6 tape at no charge. I've been a MWS since August.I have very little combat skills so how the HECK am I suppose to get those tapes? My bankroll is certainly not that large, becauseI prefer to do OTHER things with the game like go on a guild Krayt Hunt and be the bait, laugh and have a good time... not crafting weapons, maintaining harvesters, and bidding on the trade forums.
Phetro wrote:
Yes, the forum group IS representative. They didn't "self-select" to beat the polling odds, therefore they can be considered as accurate a representation as any. There are members of every profession on every server on these forums, and UNIVERSALLY the majority was, and IS against the crafting nerf.
Saepiroth wrote:
There will always be new players and they will always need cheap weapons.
So what will non-master WS's do?
Right now, the only way a non-master WS can make any money is by selling cheap guns to the newbie market on the Bazaar. So if the 10-point MWS's take over that market since they can't compete with 12-point MWS's, what are non-master WS's supposed to sell?
Hmmm so this is where Vertex, Gnosis, and Siymon been all day. I was wondering why I have not seen much post from you guys.
Anyhow, anyone care do post some stat comparison between weapons please.
10pts - Before Patch
T21, Laser Rifle, Scout Blaster, Republic Blaster, VK
10pts - Post Patch
T21, Laser Rifle, Scout Blaster, Republic Blaster, VK
12pts - Before Patch
T21, Laser Rifle, Scout Blaster, Republic Blaster, VK
12pts - After Patch
T21, Laser Rifle, Scout Blaster, Republic Blaster, VK
If someone could post full stat damage, condition, HAM on these that would be great. I've read soooooooooooooo many post regarding this topic and yet to see a good comparison, all yappy yap.
Hopefully after that, only then we could make "proper" judgement on the patch and end the bicery between WS with 10pts and 12pts.
BTW: Now how the hell are you guys able to get all those skills tape, I rarely see them auction and camp out for days w/o seeing one. I got +10 on weapon repairs and +8 or10 on Weapon Assembly, but still a few short on experimentation.
DK
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