Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: SeaRaptor, are you fighting this?
KRONOS1974
Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:28 am
#27
_Monroe_ wrote:
Another thing that might impact some of you is an apparent hard cap on a weapon's damage. This means a weapon will have a maximum damage output. If a crafted weapon is at that max a smuggler will not be allowed to slice it. If that is true I would think no longer will people be buying 10 of a cerain weapon trying for the perfect slice.
Hmm so possibly be best to go into speed mostly and hope for a good damage slice? Wouldnt there be a hard cap on speed also? Man so many changes hard trying to keep up.
I really have to sit down my next day off and read these forums and every forum section. SO many posts.
Kind of fun actualy 
_Monroe_
Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:32 am
#28
KRONOS1974 wrote:
_Monroe_ wrote:
Another thing that might impact some of you is an apparent hard cap on a weapon's damage. This means a weapon will have a maximum damage output. If a crafted weapon is at that max a smuggler will not be allowed to slice it. If that is true I would think no longer will people be buying 10 of a cerain weapon trying for the perfect slice.
Hmm so possibly be best to go into speed mostly and hope for a good damage slice? Wouldnt there be a hard cap on speed also? Man so many changes hard trying to keep up.
I really have to sit down my next day off and read these forums and every forum section. SO many posts.
Kind of fun actualy
Who knows! LOL It could be DPS based. Guess we'll have to wait for it to go live to really test it out as I doubt there are very many good resources on tc. (There aren't for AS anyway.)
PhoenixSaint
Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:17 am
#29
Someone needs to remove mind altering substances from board meetings.
Honestly, where does this change begin to make any sort of sense..... Im master rifleman, let me whip out my certed NS energy lance. This does nothing but destroy the fragile bit of stability that weaponsmiths were clinging to. How do they expect us to sell anything anymore. sure, i may sella few more high end weapons, but all the low end sale is gone, thus they become special order. Never have i heard of a system in which newbie weapons are special order while elite weapons were common.
Well, i had some hopes for keeping a craft in the CU, because i very much enjoyed it... but hey, 3 combat characters isnt looking so bad now.
I don't blame SeaRaptor for not talking, he'd probably get fired too, if he represented our thoughts.
Message Edited by PhoenixSaint on 04-15-2005 03:20 AM
Message Edited by PhoenixSaint on 04-15-2005 04:46 AM
SeaRaptor
Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:44 am
#30
The info on every weapon cert level is good. What level is a toon with one elite combat profession? 54?
One of our long-stated goals for the CU -- OUR goals, not necessarily the developers... just to point that out -- was to have every weapon schematic useful. We have many schematics right now that no one even makes because they're junk. The overriding majority of this community wants to sella wide variety of weapons, not the same 10. In order for that to come about, all of the weapons we make need to be useful. Ideally, even a Master Pistoleer would have the occasional reason to whip out his or her D-18 for a few shots. Maybe because it's super fast or super accurate... whatever. The point is that we want everything we make to have a use to someone.
As things stand right now, we don't look like we're headed in that direction. That's a concern for all of us. I'll do what I can to raise this issue with the development team, but one of the quirks of the correspondent program is that we can't promise anything. =[
Abbell
Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:54 am
#31
I feel ya
SeaRaptor wrote:
The info on every weapon cert level is good. What level is a toon with one elite combat profession? 54?
One of our long-stated goals for the CU -- OUR goals, not necessarily the developers... just to point that out -- was to have every weapon schematic useful. We have many schematics right now that no one even makes because they're junk. The overriding majority of this community wants to sella wide variety of weapons, not the same 10. In order for that to come about, all of the weapons we make need to be useful. Ideally, even a Master Pistoleer would have the occasional reason to whip out his or her D-18 for a few shots. Maybe because it's super fast or super accurate... whatever. The point is that we want everything we make to have a use to someone.
As things stand right now, we don't look like we're headed in that direction. That's a concern for all of us. I'll do what I can to raise this issue with the development team, but one of the quirks of the correspondent program is that we can't promise anything. =[
Summerflame
Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:36 am
#32
SeaRaptor wrote:
The info on every weapon cert level is good. What level is a toon with one elite combat profession? 54?
One of our long-stated goals for the CU -- OUR goals, not necessarily the developers... just to point that out -- was to have every weapon schematic useful. We have many schematics right now that no one even makes because they're junk. The overriding majority of this community wants to sella wide variety of weapons, not the same 10. In order for that to come about, all of the weapons we make need to be useful. Ideally, even a Master Pistoleer would have the occasional reason to whip out his or her D-18 for a few shots. Maybe because it's super fast or super accurate... whatever. The point is that we want everything we make to have a use to someone.
As things stand right now, we don't look like we're headed in that direction. That's a concern for all of us. I'll do what I can to raise this issue with the development team, but one of the quirks of the correspondent program is that we can't promise anything. =[
I have to admit that I havent tested CU very much since the first couple of days. So some of the following might be done allready or have a great reason for not being implemented in the game.
I dont know why, but I had gotten the Idea that CU would introduce a lot of new damage types and thus I believed that allmost every weapon would beof use against something. Instead it seems they have reduced the damage types to only 2? Very strange move indeed.
I dont Understand the elemental damage, but I guess Ill have to read up on that somewhere else. Perhaps elemental damage is where every weapon could become viable?
Anyway, in lights of the AS drama (which I didnt follow from the beginning so I dont wanna state right or wrong in the case thou it is clearly handled poorly by SOE) I wanna give my sincere thank to you Searaptor, that you provide this great amount of work for the rest of us
/curt
hopefully youll be able to get some answers
Mor-Dan
Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:35 am
#33
Earland wrote:Rifleman to pistoleer:Buys 1 Modified Republic BlasterAverage price 20k.You made 1 sale for 20k.Rifleman to pistols 1-4 and novice pistoleer:Buys 1 dl44, buys 1 scout, buys 1 fwg5, buys 1 dx2.Average price 25-40k for all 4 weaponsYou make 4 sales for 25-40k.Not to start anything... but I just made an alt because I wanted a smuggler to support my WS and I bought a cdef on the bazaar for 1k, a scout blaster for 3k, and a republic for 10k and mastered smuggler...Nri Talani
i guarentee what you have is no where near your server's best for those weapons. cheap weapons have always been available, but you get what you pay for... lower damage, less accuracy.
Mor-Dan
Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:40 am
#34
here is one of the best written statements on how this negatively affects not just us, but the combat community as well...
sabacc1000 wrote:
As a crafter:
Sure, it wouldn't have made much difference with the current masters of their professions, but let's face it, with NDKs and rediculous loot, the dedicated pistoleers or riflemen, or swordsmen, or especially pikemen, aren't going to be buying many weapons anyway. So they're not really the issue anyway.
And no, the immediate impact wouldn't make much difference since everyone gets a respec, but we're thinking long term here (a 6 month profession curve tends to do that to you ).
If someone ever wanted to change professions, they'd need new weapons to do it. New players enter the game all the time, and they need weapons. Some people choose not to master their professions, but rather dabble, or take their time, and master casually. These people all need weapons. Now they'll need significantly fewer weapons over time.
One of the biggest concerns from the WS community, almost since the game launched, has been that we have a whole plethora of weapons that we can make, that nobody wants to use. This is extremely frustrating to the entire community. We had been told that during the combat upgrade this issue would be addressed. Remember when we were told about how all weapons would have a specific function in combat? Remember them saying that switching weapons would be an "on the spot" way to get an edge in battle after sizing up the opponent? I was thrilled when we were told such things, as it seemed that finally the longest running, and arguably the largest concern of the WS community was being addressed.
Between the low (perhaps insignificant ?) effect of elementals, the seeming insignificance of accuracy and specials cost, and the fact that current DPS levels of the frog weapons suggest one or two dominant weapons for the masters out there, it has become apparent that unless some serious tweaking is done low and intermediate level weapons will be equally, or perhaps more useless than they are on live. The only difference was that the certs were moved upwards in the profession trees, so at least these weapons would be marketable to grinders as they'd have to spend a significant amount of time in between upgrades. Now this comes out, and the last market for such weapons has all but dried up.
If this stays, the only people who will buy low and intermediate level weapons will be first time grinders. Anyone else gets to skip over that step.
Why this:
I suspect that in the next few days we'll be getting a patch that will be giving the "iconic and profession defining weapons" their associated skill box requirements. I obviously don't know any more than anyone else on this, but from what we've been told, i'd suspect that we'll see maybe 3-5 weapons max from each profession tied to skills. Whatever number it is though, there will be exactly 1 weapon below it that anyone will likely want to buy. Whatever has the highest DPS but doesn't require a skill cert. That will leave us with a lot of useless schematics.
According to the HoC chat, it seemed like this new level cert system was in response to the fact that it was difficult for players with higher levels to begin grinding out a new profession. It made sense to me at the time, but after thinking about it for a while, it just doesn't add up. If your combat level is reasonably high that XP gains from lower level MOBs become a problem, they you've probably been doing some reasonably high level fighting already, probably in groups. But since XP is based on your combat level relative to what you kill, and since it is in no way tied to damage done, all you'd really have to do, is go out with a group, touch the MOB once, and you've got your full XP with your new weapon of choice. How is that difficult exactly? And even leaving all that aside, why was the fix to the problem not making character levels calculate based on the weapon equipped? That just seems like a much more constructive and logical solution to me. So why this? If there's a good reason, I'm willing to be convinced...I just don't see it.
Also, weren't we just recently told that the reason for making weapons unequippable by those not certed was to add to the "uniqueness" of being able to use the weapon, and that its being rare would add to the "cool" factor of actually being able to hold it out in public? Weren't we also told that this would help with combat tactics, since seeing what weapon someone was using would give a sense of what role they were playing in the group and hence how to counter it? It seems that both these points become moot with this new level cert system.
As a combatant:
I know this may seem selfish and possessive, but I think it's merited. I like the professions I've chosen for combat, for reasons other than their combat efficacy. I like my pistoleer and the weapons he is able to use for having chosen that profession. I really like my pikman, and love the weapons that come with that. It seems like it will somehow cheapen these weapons sentimentally, if everyone who masters a profession can use all but a couple of the weapons that I worked hard to acquire, specifically because I wanted those weapons.
I like the fact that I have a whole line of weapons that most other people can't use. This uniqueness adds to the attachment to the profession.
sabacc1000 wrote:
As a crafter:
Sure, it wouldn't have made much difference with the current masters of their professions, but let's face it, with NDKs and rediculous loot, the dedicated pistoleers or riflemen, or swordsmen, or especially pikemen, aren't going to be buying many weapons anyway. So they're not really the issue anyway.
And no, the immediate impact wouldn't make much difference since everyone gets a respec, but we're thinking long term here (a 6 month profession curve tends to do that to you
).If someone ever wanted to change professions, they'd need new weapons to do it. New players enter the game all the time, and they need weapons. Some people choose not to master their professions, but rather dabble, or take their time, and master casually. These people all need weapons. Now they'll need significantly fewer weapons over time.
One of the biggest concerns from the WS community, almost since the game launched, has been that we have a whole plethora of weapons that we can make, that nobody wants to use. This is extremely frustrating to the entire community. We had been told that during the combat upgrade this issue would be addressed. Remember when we were told about how all weapons would have a specific function in combat? Remember them saying that switching weapons would be an "on the spot" way to get an edge in battle after sizing up the opponent? I was thrilled when we were told such things, as it seemed that finally the longest running, and arguably the largest concern of the WS community was being addressed.
Between the low (perhaps insignificant ?) effect of elementals, the seeming insignificance of accuracy and specials cost, and the fact that current DPS levels of the frog weapons suggest one or two dominant weapons for the masters out there, it has become apparent that unless some serious tweaking is done low and intermediate level weapons will be equally, or perhaps more useless than they are on live. The only difference was that the certs were moved upwards in the profession trees, so at least these weapons would be marketable to grinders as they'd have to spend a significant amount of time in between upgrades. Now this comes out, and the last market for such weapons has all but dried up.
If this stays, the only people who will buy low and intermediate level weapons will be first time grinders. Anyone else gets to skip over that step.
Why this:
I suspect that in the next few days we'll be getting a patch that will be giving the "iconic and profession defining weapons" their associated skill box requirements. I obviously don't know any more than anyone else on this, but from what we've been told, i'd suspect that we'll see maybe 3-5 weapons max from each profession tied to skills. Whatever number it is though, there will be exactly 1 weapon below it that anyone will likely want to buy. Whatever has the highest DPS but doesn't require a skill cert. That will leave us with a lot of useless schematics.
According to the HoC chat, it seemed like this new level cert system was in response to the fact that it was difficult for players with higher levels to begin grinding out a new profession. It made sense to me at the time, but after thinking about it for a while, it just doesn't add up. If your combat level is reasonably high that XP gains from lower level MOBs become a problem, they you've probably been doing some reasonably high level fighting already, probably in groups. But since XP is based on your combat level relative to what you kill, and since it is in no way tied to damage done, all you'd really have to do, is go out with a group, touch the MOB once, and you've got your full XP with your new weapon of choice. How is that difficult exactly? And even leaving all that aside, why was the fix to the problem not making character levels calculate based on the weapon equipped? That just seems like a much more constructive and logical solution to me. So why this? If there's a good reason, I'm willing to be convinced...I just don't see it.
Also, weren't we just recently told that the reason for making weapons unequippable by those not certed was to add to the "uniqueness" of being able to use the weapon, and that its being rare would add to the "cool" factor of actually being able to hold it out in public? Weren't we also told that this would help with combat tactics, since seeing what weapon someone was using would give a sense of what role they were playing in the group and hence how to counter it? It seems that both these points become moot with this new level cert system.
As a combatant:
I know this may seem selfish and possessive, but I think it's merited. I like the professions I've chosen for combat, for reasons other than their combat efficacy. I like my pistoleer and the weapons he is able to use for having chosen that profession. I really like my pikman, and love the weapons that come with that. It seems like it will somehow cheapen these weapons sentimentally, if everyone who masters a profession can use all but a couple of the weapons that I worked hard to acquire, specifically because I wanted those weapons.
I like the fact that I have a whole line of weapons that most other people can't use. This uniqueness adds to the attachment to the profession.
Earland
Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:22 pm
#35
Am I understanding this correctly... we are complaining because instead of the grinders buying low level weapons... they will be buying higher level weapons to grind with??? I am sorry if I don't see some mystical armageddon here... but I really don't see a difference here other than the people that have huge stockpiles of low level weapons won't have to make anymore for a long while.
Nri Talani
Maceey
Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:44 pm
#36
Earland wrote:
Am I understanding this correctly... we are complaining because instead of the grinders buying low level weapons... they will be buying higher level weapons to grind with??? I am sorry if I don't see some mystical armageddon here... but I really don't see a difference here other than the people that have huge stockpiles of low level weapons won't have to make anymore for a long while.
Nri Talani
Well one of the biggest issues for most weaponsmiths is the following.( And we were hoping they would fix it in the CU) People now only use the best weapon. There isn't much use to craft the lower level ones since they are only needed for a very short time during the grind. We want people to use more different weapons instead of all crafting the same weapons and them using the same weapons. It sounds to me like we are getting the same thing as we have now. We only crafte the highest dps weapons and that's the only weapons people use and 50% of our schematics are useless...
KRONOS1974
Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:55 pm
#38
You would lose out on all the small sales. I mean say if you want to be a pistoleer ( or customer ) and he is master rifleman. He can jump right into a republic blaster. Not having to use other pistols to gain exp and skill boxes.
Rifleman to pistoleer:
Buys 1 Modified Republic Blaster
Average price 20k.
You made 1 sale for 20k.
Rifleman to pistols 1-4 and novice pistoleer:
Buys 1 dl44, buys 1 scout, buys 1 fwg5, buys 1 dx2.
Average price 25-40k for all 4 weapons
You make 4 sales for 25-40k.
So though you sell that 1 pistol for 20k, you miss out on another 25-40k possible sales.
Plus less business to your shop, all they have to do is buy a crate and that will last them. So you will make basicaly a 1 time sale instead of having them return.
Or atleast this is what it sounds like/looks like.
That cant be good for business nor new WS's that might not have all the resources to make high end weapons and rely on lower end weapons to earn money.
Might not be this way but possible it might end up this way.
Earland
Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:59 pm
#39
If you are looking at making all types of weapons... then that is what is going to happen, but you are only looking at the CU. The smuggler revamp is supposed to happen pretty soon after the CU and they have stated the "lower" weapons will have a higher slice %. Plus, you also must consider the fact that the only way we are going to be selling ALL of our weapons forever is that they make them all the same... and simply put, they will not and should not ever be that way. If you look at the higher level weapons, there is quite a variety of viable weapons in comparison to the current system... you also must take into consideration the different speed calculations in the CU. It is not longer the easy "100 means capping everything no matter what" system that it is now. The higher "special" dps is going to be important... not weapon dps... and since general accuracy and speed comes into account you are going to see some "lower" (but not marksman and brawler weapons) coming into play because they have viable "special" dps's. Just my two cents.
Nri Talani