Weaponsmith Archive

Thread: Gernade prices

Ybagi
Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:40 am
#27






Brilyn wrote:


I didn't say *you* were charging significantly more. Though, 1400 is 40% more, so yeah, I guess I'd consider that pretty close to 'significanly more'.





I believe you called me a "ripoff merchant", and 400 credits in this game is nothing; even to a new player;


if 400 credits is significant to you then maybe you are the one that isn't charging enough.





Yv
Undead Warrior
Alchemist
Malganis Server
World of Warcraft
Bajbongiovanni
Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:59 am
#28

People charge so much becasue so many people want them. I'd charge a lot because i odnt use factories. Actually im having trouble wth my macro so i gotta mkae em by hand. But if any non WS here on Chilastra send me a tell if u have reactive gas ill make a singleset( 5 grenades )per every 9 units for free.




Cukora: Wookie Jedi
Aiten Edi: Master Structure Trader/Master Politician
Resource Vendor (-5911 2636) outside of Theed
gblfxt
Sun Oct 10, 2004 8:23 am
#29

on the idea of using "cheap" resources? spacing constraints keep me from stocking nothing but the best resources, keeping track of those is enough of a pain.



gbltech -1191, 2113 mining outpost, dantooine - master weaponsmith, master artisan, master shipwright
EdOWar
Sun Oct 10, 2004 8:30 am
#30






Brilyn wrote:

< It is a pain to craft C12 due to alot of factory time. >


I don't understand this sentiment.


I don't get how factory time = pain.



I mean....


I create a Light Warhead Schem, and a Warhead Fusing Schem.


I put both into a factory.



I come back 24 hours later, and make a C12 Schem.


I put that into a factory.



I come back 24 hours later, and retrieve all my crates of C12s.



What's the problem?







It actually takes about 33 hours for each sub-component (120 secondsx1000 = 2000 minutes/60 minutes = 33.33 hours). I don't recall exactly how long it takes for the final C-12 grenade, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least another 120 seconds each, so assumeanother 33.33 hours. So you're talking about 3-4 days, depending on how often you can get on to change factory loads--some of us work, so we can't jump into the game right away to switch over a factory load.


What's a pain aboutC-12s and factory timeis the opportunity cost--that's 66.66 hours that your factories could spend making something that sells for a higher CPU withthe same, or less,factory time, such as T-21's, VK's , etc. If you're only selling your C-12's for 1K each, that's roughly 18 cpu for 66.66 hours of factory work. 18 cpu isn't horrible, but in the same time I could have made 100 T-21's that would sell for 30+ cpu, or top-notchVK's that I can sell at a whopping 92 CPU. I suppose if you have 10 factories set up, then it's no big deal to set aside a few to do constant runs of grenades. But not everyone has 10 factories set up, nor wants to.


As for storage, the reason storage is such a problem for crafters, especially for those dependent on high quality resources, is that we never know when, or if, an equivalent or better resource will spawn again. On Corbantis we once went four months with no Diatium copper. So if you depended on only your 100K stack, you'd run out soon enough and then find yourself making blasters with inferior damage compared to those WS that had stockpiled 500K of Diatium. That's the primary reason why crafters stockpile so much when a good resource spawns.


There is also another cost associated with storage, in that we spend a good amount of money to stockpile large amounts of resources, then a new resource spawns in that's better. The old resource then losses a good deal of it's value: you can't use it to make weapons (not if you want to stay competitive); you might be able to sell it for 3 cpu, but that's a far cry from the 18-92 cpu we could have gotten for a finished product. Thiscost is partly reflected in the price of weapons. If SWG had a more efficient resource system, then it wouldn't be necessary to stockpile so many resources, and I think prices for many weapons would be somewhat lower.


In the end, it doesn't really matter what you or I think is a fair price. All that matters is what the customer thinks. If the demand is there, and the customer is willing to spend the money, then the price was right. There's no one holding a gun to the customer's head forcing themto buy our weapons. Every server has dozens of weaponsmiths they can go to, so there's plenty of competition out there.


Slim Vargo, Corbantis

Ogeda
Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:27 pm
#31

Guy, just browse through flurry trade forum. The price of C12 auction went to 100k per crate. Whoa.

It is a pain to craft C12 due to alot of factory time. If at 100k per crate, maybe time to up production of C12.

I remember before this new FS grind, my C12 sit on a vendor for 3 months and no one is interested. LOL.



Master Weaponsmith (12 points) ,Master Rifleman
Vendor in LEON MALL near Coronet Starport, 348, -5457
Bermag
Mon Oct 11, 2004 3:13 am
#32

C12s and C22 are pretty easy / quick to make IMO. The high-end grenades is a pain however since you can not put all components into input hopper (I always make full runs of grenades).


My price for grenades are: C12 - 15k, C22 - 18k, Thermal 40k, Imp 50k, Protones 60k





---
Bermag [SiyBer Arms]

ex-NGE 12 pt Master Weaponsmith/FS Crafting Mastery- Wanderhome
Corellia: (Coronet -200, -5500) Dantooine Imp op -4422 -2383
High quality and low price
Now playing Eve
SeaRaptor
Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:50 am
#33

Anyone wondering why grenades are expensive needs to read Slim's post. He explains it perfectly. It is ALL about opportunity cost. Do people really expect me to tie up my factories for 4 straight days just to GIVE grenades away? No thanks. If they want that, I'll just quit making the damn things. They take up too much time as is.


As an aside, arguing weapon pricing is like arguing religion. You have your opinion, the other guy has his, and neither of you is going to change the other's mind.



Felton Kel
Master Weaponsmith, FelKel LTD Weaponsmiths

Old weaponsmiths never die, they buy a planet and retire in luxury.
Now on MMORadio - Where Gamers ROCK!
d0qtrX
Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:51 am
#34






Brilyn wrote:

< I used 30cpu as the lowest I would accept because I was selling powerups at the time as fast as I could make them at 30cpu, investing more skill points and collecting more resources should yield a better return. >


So....



You're prepared to pay 30cpu on a Heavy Harvester then?






It's the architect's fault they sold themsleves so painfully short early on.
Cacao
Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:22 am
#35



d0qtrX wrote:


Brilyn wrote:
< I used 30cpu as the lowest I would accept because I was selling powerups at the time as fast as I could make them at 30cpu, investing more skill points and collecting more resources should yield a better return. >
So....
You're prepared to pay 30cpu on a Heavy Harvester then?



It's the architect's fault they sold themsleves so painfully short early on.




Selling short early on is irrelevant now, over a year later. The difference between architect prices (in terms of cpu) and weaponsmith prices boils down to one word: decay. How much do you think a T21 would go for if a rifleman only had to buy one and it would last forever (provided they paid to "maintain" it)?

Not to make this an architect discussion, but the devs ultimately made the architect prices screwy, not the architects themselves.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but the higher prices for grenades are a direct result of their "decay." Use it once, and you have to buy another. This increases demand, and since weaponsmiths are just learining of the demand for grenades (at least on Corbantis), there isn't the supply to bring the prices back down. On each server, as more weaponsmiths make more grenades, the prices may go down, but they will never be what prices are for architect wares (in terms of cpu). From what I recall, a heavy harvester at 150k works out to about 5-6cpu, adn takes about 2.5k of "quality" resource (the kind we put in weapons for 30cpu). Weapon prices will never be that low, so in the meantime, let everything work out naturally (which it is bound to do).

Cacao



~~Cacao-Wachu Bilbloba-Rokesbeard Xavier~~
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jason67
Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:28 am
#36






kettmalice wrote:

Okay those of you that are selling for 35k+ thats highway robbery.....



At least for me,


I bought enough resources at 2/unit to make 8k grenades. I will go back tomorrow and buy some more, but I sepnt a totall of about 600-800k. 8k grenades at 1k wach is 8 million....


The cpu for that is insane, please weaponsmiths try to remember we are here to make some money but not to rip people off. If your vendor goes dry then just keep making more as fast as you can, I dont see any reason to sell them for 35k+ a crate. As weaponsmiths we make plenty of money, being greedy is what screws up the economy of the servers. I know the supply and demand rule...but there is a point to stop raising prices, at least thats my opinion.







Some may make their weapons with 2cpu grind quality resources but not all smiths do. Some value quality over qty and that quality can drastically effect costs as well as prices in the end. Nothing personal but anything that sells at 8k per crate simply isn't worth my time to try and produce. I'm not a crafting feind and don't particularly enjoy mass crafting. I got into WS because I enjoyed the custom work. This thread wasn't meant to be a flame war about price gouging etc... as it's turned out to be. This was meant to get some general feed back on grenade pricing. As I understand it this is the general pricing scheme for grenades:



C12 - 25k-50k


C22 - 35k-65k


Imp Det - 100k(most other grenades falling into this category as well)



Please post constructive information on a pricing scheme that you use on your server(also keep in mind server economics vary). Please don't bother posting if your simply going to state that you think someone else's prices are too high, just simply state what price you use and let each smith determine on his own which scheme sounds like it best fits their particular server economics.






HostageH
Master Lightsaber /3003Enhancer /4100Healer /0044Defender
/0044Force Reflexes /Master Force Combat

Arisa
MasterWeaponsmith(125exp/130assembly/25repair/22weapons repair) /MasterArtisan(14pt) /MasterShipwright /4400Force Crafting
Vendor Location 2355, -3922 just outside Coronet
Starfellow
Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:42 pm
#37

Wow this ended up being more interesting then I had hoped. I do have to say that it Grenades ARE pretty anoying to make (esp with all the subparts) and I put about 5 or 6 crates in my vender on scylla for 25k and i have yet to sell them. Mabe i need to advertise better.




Starfellow / Starhunter(retired) /Starcrafter/ SaveCrafting(retired)




For more information on ARES check out: http://ares.stonehenge.dk/
ElanMak
Mon Oct 11, 2004 3:23 pm
#38

I must throw my 2 cents in here:


First off, I had 6 factories and found it was completely inadequate for making grenades and keeping up with making my other weapons at the same time. It would have taken weeks to complete the grenades, which is unacceptable. So, last friday I rallied all my lots and now have 15 factories. With that, over the weekend I made 1000 C12's, C22's, and about 500 Glops, Imperials, and just a few of the rest which are onmy vendor after working on grenades all weekend with all 15 factories running. So the time factor for making grenades in factoriesis a very big part of the price. Unlike architects who only use factories for walls and for when identical subs are needed, we weaponsmiths have to use factories for EVERYTHING. And factories are very slow.


So, this time factor is a big deal. Granted, most of my time is waiting for the darn factory to get done, but still, making subcomponents and moving them from factory to factory and making schematics from finished subs takes a lot of running around and a lot of organization. In reality, there is not as much waiting as it may seem. I was kept pretty busy all weekend, and that was time I could have spent on my other char's doing more fun stuff or making money from missions.


Beyond the time to craftanything is the time spent gathering resources- some of those grenades use several hundred resources per grenade, and people buy them by the crate, not individually! My supply of resources has taken a big hit by making 1000 of each type of grenade this weekend. Granted, for the subs, I use junky resources so that is mainly stuff that is out of date from my main collection of resources for weapons. But, I always have to add extra steel and metals and reactive gas cuz there's never enough of that.


So, once you've invested all that game time to gather resources, craft schematics and run factories for several days, then you expect to be paid for all that effort. In this respect, all crafters are the same. The cost of the resources is really a small part of the cost of the final product. Its the time and effort that really drives the price. Using resources as a base for cost is just a simple way to price things assuming that items with more resources also take more time to build because they are more complicated. But with grenades, that factor isout of whack from other weapons due to the intensive factory time and unusually complicated subcomponents. Even simple C12's and C22's are twice as complicated as most melee weapons, and again, they are purchased by the crate, not one at a time, so the time to produce them is 25 times more than melee weapons andeven simple grenades have twice as many subcomponents.


This grenade pricing topic is an excellent example of supply and demand. When there was little demand for grenades, then most weaponsmiths did not bother to make them because they were too time-consuming and too low ofa profit (the hassle-factor!). Now that there is more demand, then the prices have about doubled and thus its now worth it to make grenades. It a classic case of supply and demand where the reality of pricing is that at a certain point, its not worth it to make the product, and above that point, it is. This is where the supply curve and demand curve meet, and on one side you get commerce, and on the other side, no activity.


So don't complain about the prices of anything in a free-market economy like SWG. Fact is, if the price is too high for your taste, then you can try to find someone hungry enough to make the items at a lower price. If you can't find anyone, then the price must be fair and you just need to adjust your expectations.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tree - a very tall Wookiee: Hunter of all things that move.
Stilgar - a FAT blue Rodian: Maker of all things that do not move (* TRADERS NEED LOVE TOO, DEVS! *).
Former Mayor of Artisan Arches and Master Weaponsmith. Recently joined AoF and moved to Edoras. * Tempest Server *
Irxosskisx
Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:47 pm
#39

My Prices were set by my first Customer.


I got a Large Order for Proton gernades at 5Kper stack (read 100k for a crate of 20)


I only have the time to make Protons, (well acctually they sell faster than I can make them) If I can squeeze it in I sometime do C12 runs and sell them for 25K per crate.



Irxosskisx (Lowca) - 12 Point FS Master Weponsmith,Master Armorsmith, Master Artisan, Mayor of Mojovia Trandosan For Ever!

Aermei (Lowca) - Jedi Nublit
Ocesco - he's a Bothan...
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