Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: DPS does matter, mod speed does influence cooldown timers.
Alristico
Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:13 am
#27
Lycantha wrote:
each special has it's own cooldown, yes, genius. You are NOT worth a reply anymore, as you cannot even explain your own testing method adequately. Manual Toggling requires a keystroke, timing and introduces error, and cannot possibly be done accurately over the time period it takes to test properly. We are dealing with unseen fractions of seconds in the speed calculation, and no method that requires a human keystroke will be valid. End of subject, and I'm done.
Alristico wrote:
Lycantha wrote:
"you have to toggle between two specials with different cooldowns in order to properly test speed."
Why? Manually toggleing between two specials is meaningless unless it was macroed, which in itself would be meaningless because of the timer issues using a macro.
My testing was on a single rooted elite animal.. same conditions each time, same range, same accu, a kinetic animal that did nothing but stand there rooted and take hits. No variables, no debuffs done to me, no states applied.
Auto Attack allowed the comp to dictate the timing of shots in a predictable measurable fashion without introducing human variables manually toggling separate shots.
The test was to determine what powerups were more effective at my level and mods. Since I tested guns with speed powerups and higher DPS against the same guns equipped with Damage powerups and lower DPS there was no variation at ALL in the guns except the powerup. Results were the same with each gun tested, E-11Mk 11, Elite, Proton, Czerka, etc. In all cases the damage over 10 shots using the Damage Powerup was higher than the same gun with a speed pwp applied, even though the speed powerup generated a higher DPS number.
Please explain WHY you feel toggleing is necessary to test.. toggleing is a tactic, not an inherent test of a weapons ablilities. Your methodology is flawed, your premise is wrong, and you cannot support it.
the cooldown of using one special is different from the cooldown of using two specials.
manual toggling between two specials is accurate as long as you keep the next special queued.
you can't properly test the affect of speed if you don't test it under the same conditions that would occur in normal combat. You would never use just one special in succession.
manual toggling does not introduce error as long as you keep the next special queued. Then it will fire as soon as it possibly can. Do you know what the word "queue" means?
XobNoics
Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:55 am
#28
Using the same special in an auto-attack will not give you accurate results as there is a "static" timer of 3 seconds. So if you're using say Range Shot and have that set, the next Ranged Shot will be 3 seconds later.
To get a more accurate result with speed mods, you will need to toggle between different specials because some are on different cooldown/recover timers. An example of this would be me firing
1) Underhand Shot
2) Ranged Shot
3) Adv. Critical Shot
4) Imp. Head Shot
in 4 seconds. Firing 4 Ranged Shots in 4 seconds is not possible but it is possible with the example above (see screenshot on 1st page for proof).
Alristico
Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:05 pm
#29
ShugFlurry wrote:
The only way you would be able to make identical weapons, ie SAC, Acc mod, wound, the same and have different dps would be to use less experiment points.
different resources also, plus different enhancer components, extra exp points, the exp roll....
Your test seems to say experiment dps, not SAC.
thats an assumption based on no valid facts. I never said or alluded to this in any way
ShugFlurry
Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:11 pm
#30
Why use different resources................. could you please list full stats (just for fair test). Personally I would've created 9 different rifles, 1 using 1 point of experiment for each speed value using identical components.
Alristico
Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:16 pm
#31
ShugFlurry wrote:
What was the base speed on the rifles btw?
i just listed them in the first post.
Alristico
Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:17 pm
#32
ShugFlurry wrote:
Why use different resources................. could you please list full stats (just for fair test). Personally I would've created 9 different rifles, 1 using 1 point of experiment for each speed value using identical components.
you wouldn't create rifles at all if you weren't a ws. You would have to shop around for them. Which is when dps can be a helpful reference if you understand it and compare it to sac.
player-xyz
Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:43 pm
#33
Alristico -- thank you for your posts on this topic. I do not understand why some people insist that you are "wrong".Your data is helpful and consistent with what I have tested.
- DPS does matter, as you clearly state and have proven.
- DPS is not the sole way to measure a weapon, and you have not claimed that to be the case.
If the SAC on a weapon is so high that you are out of action in 5 shots, then, duh, DPS does not matter.
My advice to customers is to look at modified DPS divided by SAC, and have 2-3 weapons with varying SAC's. Use the weapon based on the fight -- if you are okwith food and spice, and the battle is almost over, use the higher SAC weapon. If your action regen is low, switch to the lower SAC weapon.But in all cases, DPS is a good -- but not entirely complete -- way to compare weapons.
DPS is not, as so many have claimed, a worthless measure of a weapons effectiveness.
Lycantha
Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:51 pm
#34
XobNoics wrote:
Using the same special in an auto-attack will not give you accurate results as there is a "static" timer of 3 seconds. So if you're using say Range Shot and have that set, the next Ranged Shot will be 3 seconds later.
To get a more accurate result with speed mods, you will need to toggle between different specials because some are on different cooldown/recover timers. An example of this would be me firing
1) Underhand Shot
2) Ranged Shot
3) Adv. Critical Shot
4) Imp. Head Shot
in 4 seconds. Firing 4 Ranged Shots in 4 seconds is not possible but it is possible with the example above (see screenshot on 1st page for proof).
Show me 5 screenshots with that.. prove it is repeatable. I don't think you can. You're basing an argument on a freak accident. If you can show me that you can repeat that AT WILL then it may be relevent.
Again.. bottom line is, DPS is skewed because weapons speed calculation does not correlate to Combat Speed. Simple. Weapons speed does effect specials speed, but to a much smaller % than the simple formula used to generate DPS.
Again.. not testing tactics, testing whether DPS is an accurate measurement. A single special can and will prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt.
The concept you are NOT getting is that the speed figured into the simple mathematical formula for calculating DPS is NOT being applied in the same ratio reducing the speed of combat specials. Therefore, on any given special you are not recieving the speed bonus that WAS applied to the calculation of DPS.
Firing a single special, IF the speed was taken into effect fully, would give superior results to the higher DPS weapon. When Testing, you remove EVERY single variable but the one you want to test. DPS does NOT convert to Damage per Action. DPS is false.
Using the same special in an auto-attack will not give you accurate results as there is a "static" timer of 3 seconds. So if you're using say Range Shot and have that set, the next Ranged Shot will be 3 seconds later.
To get a more accurate result with speed mods, you will need to toggle between different specials because some are on different cooldown/recover timers. An example of this would be me firing
1) Underhand Shot
2) Ranged Shot
3) Adv. Critical Shot
4) Imp. Head Shot
in 4 seconds. Firing 4 Ranged Shots in 4 seconds is not possible but it is possible with the example above (see screenshot on 1st page for proof).
Show me 5 screenshots with that.. prove it is repeatable. I don't think you can. You're basing an argument on a freak accident. If you can show me that you can repeat that AT WILL then it may be relevent.
Again.. bottom line is, DPS is skewed because weapons speed calculation does not correlate to Combat Speed. Simple. Weapons speed does effect specials speed, but to a much smaller % than the simple formula used to generate DPS.
Again.. not testing tactics, testing whether DPS is an accurate measurement. A single special can and will prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt.
The concept you are NOT getting is that the speed figured into the simple mathematical formula for calculating DPS is NOT being applied in the same ratio reducing the speed of combat specials. Therefore, on any given special you are not recieving the speed bonus that WAS applied to the calculation of DPS.
Firing a single special, IF the speed was taken into effect fully, would give superior results to the higher DPS weapon. When Testing, you remove EVERY single variable but the one you want to test. DPS does NOT convert to Damage per Action. DPS is false.
Alristico
Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:06 pm
#35
thats both illogical and impossible. DPS stands for damage per second. A single special can not measure damage over time. It can only measure the damage of an instant.
Lycantha wrote:
Again.. not testing tactics, testing whether DPS is an accurate measurement. A single special can and will prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Message Edited by Alristico on 06-20-2005 05:06 PM
ShugFlurry
Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:15 pm
#36
Alristico wrote:
ShugFlurry wrote:
Why use different resources................. could you please list full stats (just for fair test). Personally I would've created 9 different rifles, 1 using 1 point of experiment for each speed value using identical components.
you wouldn't create rifles at all if you weren't a ws. You would have to shop around for them. Which is when dps can be a helpful reference if you understand it and compare it to sac.
Ah I apologise I perceived it as you were a weaponsmith yourself crafting these weapons to test. Yes DPS does matter but in no way should it be what most people think, Joe Bloggs just believes damage per second = good. I've been approached by FAR too many people who solely want dps w/o even trying to understand the situation. Yes if your not going to be draining your action pool dps may matter but the fact is the difference in speed is so great between the weapons. Personally since DPS in this case is a product of the differing speed, damage was only slightly different. It seems this test was proving that speed does affect the weapon. Just seems too... artificial.
Serit: The main point is that you WILL empty your action cost when fitting mobs of equal level so SAC does come into play.
XobNoics
Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:06 pm
#37
Lycantha wrote:
Show me 5 screenshots with that.. prove it is repeatable. I don't think you can. You're basing an argument on a freak accident. If you can show me that you can repeat that AT WILL then it may be relevent.
Again.. bottom line is, DPS is skewed because weapons speed calculation does not correlate to Combat Speed. Simple. Weapons speed does effect specials speed, but to a much smaller % than the simple formula used to generate DPS.
Again.. not testing tactics, testing whether DPS is an accurate measurement. A single special can and will prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt.
The concept you are NOT getting is that the speed figured into the simple mathematical formula for calculating DPS is NOT being applied in the same ratio reducing the speed of combat specials. Therefore, on any given special you are not recieving the speed bonus that WAS applied to the calculation of DPS.
Firing a single special, IF the speed was taken into effect fully, would give superior results to the higher DPS weapon. When Testing, you remove EVERY single variable but the one you want to test. DPS does NOT convert to Damage per Action. DPS is false.
I don't have 5 but I will show you 3 screenshots with 4 rounds that I just did. Wasn't able to show you round #5 as the opponent was triple incapped.
Don't scream Photoshop because all I did was crop the images. If I really wanted to PS the image I would have changed round #4 strengthen my point.
Of course weapon speed does not correlate to combat speed, but it is a modifier of the cooldown/recover timer. The lower you can get mod speed on the weapon, the faster you are able to dish out combinations of special attacks. Without my +50 speed tapes (+25 rifle speed and +25 ranged speed), I would NOT have been able to replicate this at will. As I mentioned on the first page of this thread. +25 rifle speed attachment changed my mod speed by 0.04 and +50 rifle/ranged speedchanged my mod speed by 0.10. So imagine putting 2 or 3 points into a weapon... you're basically getting +50 at the cost of the weapon vs. millions in tapes.
With my above screen shots, I just shot down yourpoint "Again.. not testing tactics, testing whether DPS is an accurate measurement. A single special can and will prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt." Why fire off single specials when you can take an opponent down quicker with a combination of specials? You ARE including tactics when fighting the mobs you mentioned... actually, I don't know your playstyle but I try not to get hit my MOBs if I can. There is no way you can stand toe-to-toe with any Krayt unless you are a Jedi with Master Defender.
Again, I'm not saying DPS is an accurate measure but itIS a measure. DPS doesn't show accuracy and SAC.
The concept that YOU are not getting is that speed matters. Sure speed skews DPS but speed is used in the calculation for how quickly your cooldown/recover timer lasts. Take my rifle, add 0.10 speed to it, and I guarantee that you will not be firing off specials once per second without a speed power up.
Firing one special over and over is not an accurate test of what kind of damage a person can really do. Of course a high damage/low SAC weapon will beat a DPS-centric weapon because both weapons are basically firing at the same rate. What you want to know is how the weapon will do if you fire a combination of attacks.
Damage/SAC wins if you use auto-attack on one attack. If that's what you wanted, then I agree that it'sa fact. However, Damage/SAC might not win against a well balanced weapon.
Lycantha
Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:14 pm
#38
Xob said
"Firing one special over and over is not an accurate test of what kind of damage a person can really do. Of course a high damage/low SAC weapon will beat a DPS-centric weapon because both weapons are basically firing at the same rate. What you want to know is how the weapon will do if you fire a combination of attacks."
Ok, you win.. you did manage to reproduce the results. I hope to find PvP and Mission npcs that stand there like a lump and take it and do nothing. Would have loved to have your Action bar included in that series too.
Bingo.. what a PERSON can do. I'm testing Speed mods upon warmup-cooldown times. Correct, speed does not effect them to a very large extent but it DOES effect them. Repeating a single special will prove this.
Repeating it for all shots will give a better idea of the effect. If all specials are are impacted by speed in such a minor fashion speed generated to create a low damage high DPS weapon with speed is a waste of exp points and time. Even if rotating specials, DPS generated by excessive speed will not be a correct reading of a weapon's potential.
Speed, as you have proven, is better generated by skill mods and other items.
I have the screens of my testing today.. two nearly Identical D-44 XTs as far as DPS, One gun is 263-729. the other is 340-829. DPS is 353.74 and 353.45 respectively. SAC is 77 and 63 respectively.. SAC was sacrificed on the fast gun to generate speed. So far no action problems that effect testing. For the crowd who cannot accept controlled environment testing, I'm using these on Level 80 mission npcs using my normal series of attacks.. because, for the slow, I repeated a single special for testing purposes only.. have a tough time grasping that? or that measuring the cooldown/warmup effect on a single special can be extrapolated to a series of specials or default shots?
It will take a lot longer to generate the data this way.. polluted by missed shots, states, etc it will take longer to establish a baseline.. but so far I see no difference in the shot times using the slower, higher damage gun vs the speedier gun.. but a signifigant difference in damage per shot, every shot. Im able to stack 3 shots in 4 seconds easily with either gun..and I have no real pistol mods. I used the XT because I wasnt going to waste more than two 120 dam tissues on this project. So far, in approx 30 level 80 mission NPCs the higher damage, slower gun is killing faster..yet has .30 less dps than the fast gun. IF DPS were an accurate measure, both guns should be performing nearly identically, but they are not.
But whaever. Im sure whatever I chart and post will not be good enough.
"Firing one special over and over is not an accurate test of what kind of damage a person can really do. Of course a high damage/low SAC weapon will beat a DPS-centric weapon because both weapons are basically firing at the same rate. What you want to know is how the weapon will do if you fire a combination of attacks."
Ok, you win.. you did manage to reproduce the results. I hope to find PvP and Mission npcs that stand there like a lump and take it and do nothing. Would have loved to have your Action bar included in that series too.
Bingo.. what a PERSON can do. I'm testing Speed mods upon warmup-cooldown times. Correct, speed does not effect them to a very large extent but it DOES effect them. Repeating a single special will prove this.
Repeating it for all shots will give a better idea of the effect. If all specials are are impacted by speed in such a minor fashion speed generated to create a low damage high DPS weapon with speed is a waste of exp points and time. Even if rotating specials, DPS generated by excessive speed will not be a correct reading of a weapon's potential.
Speed, as you have proven, is better generated by skill mods and other items.
I have the screens of my testing today.. two nearly Identical D-44 XTs as far as DPS, One gun is 263-729. the other is 340-829. DPS is 353.74 and 353.45 respectively. SAC is 77 and 63 respectively.. SAC was sacrificed on the fast gun to generate speed. So far no action problems that effect testing. For the crowd who cannot accept controlled environment testing, I'm using these on Level 80 mission npcs using my normal series of attacks.. because, for the slow, I repeated a single special for testing purposes only.. have a tough time grasping that? or that measuring the cooldown/warmup effect on a single special can be extrapolated to a series of specials or default shots?
It will take a lot longer to generate the data this way.. polluted by missed shots, states, etc it will take longer to establish a baseline.. but so far I see no difference in the shot times using the slower, higher damage gun vs the speedier gun.. but a signifigant difference in damage per shot, every shot. Im able to stack 3 shots in 4 seconds easily with either gun..and I have no real pistol mods. I used the XT because I wasnt going to waste more than two 120 dam tissues on this project. So far, in approx 30 level 80 mission NPCs the higher damage, slower gun is killing faster..yet has .30 less dps than the fast gun. IF DPS were an accurate measure, both guns should be performing nearly identically, but they are not.
But whaever. Im sure whatever I chart and post will not be good enough.
Message Edited by Lycantha on 06-20-2005 06:31 PM
Lycantha
Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:20 pm
#39
Alristico wrote:
thats both illogical and impossible. DPS stands for damage per second. A single special can not measure damage over time. It can only measure the damage of an instant.
Lycantha wrote:
Again.. not testing tactics, testing whether DPS is an accurate measurement. A single special can and will prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Message Edited by Alristico on 06-20-2005 05:06 PM
Um, make a leap.. a single special "repeated" as I stated numerous times.. doh..
And by the way.. DPS is calculated and placed on the weapon without a single shot being fired!! Impossible!!
and that is the rub..its a simplistic formula that can generate false dps with excessive speed experimentation and manipulated by speed powerups, yet that speed does not translate to actual combat useable damage.