Weaponsmith Archive

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Lycantha wrote:

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Alristico wrote:

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Lycantha wrote:

Again.. not testing tactics, testing whether DPS is an accurate measurement. A single special can and will prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt.

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thats both illogical and impossible. DPS stands for damage per second. A single special can not measure damage over time. It can only measure the damage of an instant.

Message Edited by Alristico on 06-20-200505:06 PM

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Um, make a leap.. a single special "repeated" as I stated numerous times.. doh..

your statement did not say "repeated"

And by the way.. DPS is calculated and placed on the weapon without a single shot being fired!! Impossible!!

calculating it and testing its usefullness are two separate things.

and that is the rub..its a simplistic formula that can generate false dps with excessive speed experimentation and manipulated by speed powerups, yet that speed does not translate to actual combat useable damage.

As I've already stated, there may be a lower cap on speed which when surpassed would cause a misleading dps. But this is only speculation. I haven't seen one valid test from you yet. Please stop making statements without backing them up. If you think you have made a valid test I suggest you review my guidlines as to what will make a test that shows how speed matters. I would welcome any valid tests corroborating or contradicting my results.

since the cooldown of one special is on a different timer than the cooldown of toggling between two or more specials, how do you know that speed affects one special in the same way that it affects using two specials? I ask because I don't yet know this and it seems that you might since you say you don't have to test speed using two specials.

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Lycantha wrote:
Xob said
"Firing one special over and over is not an accurate test of what kind of damage a person can really do. Of course a high damage/low SAC weapon will beat a DPS-centric weapon because both weapons are basically firing at the same rate. What you want to know is how the weapon will do if you fire a combination of attacks."

Ok, you win.. you did manage to reproduce the results. I hope to find PvP and Mission npcs that stand there like a lump and take it and do nothing. Would have loved to have your Action bar included in that series too.

Bingo.. what a PERSON can do. I'm testing Speed mods upon warmup-cooldown times. Correct, speed does not effect them to a very large extent but it DOES effect them. Repeating a single special will prove this.



Repeating it for all shots will give a better idea of the effect. If all specials are are impacted by speed in such a minor fashion speed generated to create a low damage high DPS weapon with speed is a waste of exp points and time. Even if rotating specials, DPS generated by excessive speed will not be a correct reading of a weapon's potential.

Speed, as you have proven, is better generated by skill mods and other items.

I have the screens of my testing today.. two nearly Identical D-44 XTs as far as DPS, One gun is 263-729. the other is 340-829. DPS is 353.74 and 353.45 respectively. SAC is 77 and 63 respectively.. SAC was sacrificed on the fast gun to generate speed. So far no action problems that effect testing. For the crowd who cannot accept controlled environment testing, I'm using these on Level 80 mission npcs using my normal series of attacks.. because, for the slow, I repeated a single special for testing purposes only.. have a tough time grasping that? or that measuring the cooldown/warmup effect on a single special can be extrapolated to a series of specials or default shots?

It will take a lot longer to generate the data this way.. polluted by missed shots, states, etc it will take longer to establish a baseline.. but so far I see no difference in the shot times using the slower, higher damage gun vs the speedier gun.. but a signifigant difference in damage per shot, every shot. Im able to stack 3 shots in 4 seconds easily with either gun..and I have no real pistol mods. I used the XT because I wasnt going to waste more than two 120 dam tissues on this project. So far, in approx 30 level 80 mission NPCs the higher damage, slower gun is killing faster..yet has .30 less dps than the fast gun. IF DPS were an accurate measure, both guns should be performing nearly identically, but they are not.

But whaever. Im sure whatever I chart and post will not be good enough.

Message Edited by Lycantha on 06-20-2005 06:31 PM

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XobNoics wrote:

Using the same special in an auto-attack will not give you accurate results as there is a "static" timer of 3 seconds. So if you're using say Range Shot and have that set, the next Ranged Shot will be 3 seconds later.

To get a more accurate result with speed mods, you will need to toggle between different specials because some are on different cooldown/recover timers. An example of this would be me firing

1) Underhand Shot

2) Ranged Shot

3) Adv. Critical Shot

4) Imp. Head Shot

in 4 seconds. Firing 4 Ranged Shots in 4 seconds is not possible but it is possible with the example above (see screenshot on 1st page for proof).

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Speed did affect the cooldown speed times of specials.. its not a static 3 seconds or 4 seconds..as the system is NOT reporting fractions of seconds it is impossible to read it over a single series of shots, instead you have to average the times over a longer period of the SAME shots.

And to repeat myself, I was testing the inherent qualities of the weapon, not the efficacy of spam techniques. IF DPS was a valid measurement, a weapon with higher DPS would perform at a higher level of damage over time, regardless of technique. A higher DPS weapon firing the exact same special should outperform a lower DPS weapon in all circumstances. They do not. DPS is a false reading. Period.

DPS is only remotely accurate for ranged shot. For every other shot DPS is skewed by combat time.

Furthermore, I soloed all of Sordaans bets in less than 10mins, Soloed Scratch yesterday, Wiped the ground with the 5 Blackscales that jumped me during the Trando rifle mission, etc. My low SAC/High Damage guns work where it counts, kill big HAM nasties that take time and consistant damage to kill, something you wont do with no action left from too fast or too high SAC weapons. You may indeed have success with a speedy false DPS gun kiddie dueling in Coro, but your noob Cannon will fail you when you have 20-30K ham to chew up.

Tested in static tests, Tested in Combat.. a High Damage gun with Low SAC, combined with dual mastery speed mods, will outperform a lower damage gun artificially showing hi DPS by speed experimentation or powerup. This is why I destroyed a 365 Base DPS conversion MKII to get my ADK back.. 0 accu, 94 SAC, and a DPS skewed by conversion of a speed sliced fast krayt gun. It was inferior to a low SAC Higher damage gun, plain and simple.

Bottom line has not changed. DPS in itself is not reliable as a measure of weapons performance.

Message Edited by Lycantha on 06-20-2005 12:35 PM

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ShugFlurry wrote:
Overall there is still very little difference between a 1.95 and a 2.05 gun (where did I say that this specific difference is profound in any way?) when in the hands of an MBH/MP the mod speed difference is even less. I was talking to a friend whos guild WS has been crafting for DPS because "DPS sells" maybe for him.......but my customers and myself only want the lowest SAC with good damage, no use having the lowest speed if all your using is Ranged shot.

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The only way you would be able to make identical weapons, ie SAC, Acc mod, wound, the same and have different dps would be to use less experiment points. Your test seems to say experiment dps, not SAC.

What was the base speed on the rifles btw?

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Lycantha wrote:

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XobNoics wrote:

Using the same special in an auto-attack will not give you accurate results as there is a "static" timer of 3 seconds. So if you're using say Range Shot and have that set, the next Ranged Shot will be 3 seconds later.

To get a more accurate result with speed mods, you will need to toggle between different specials because some are on different cooldown/recover timers. An example of this would be me firing

1) Underhand Shot

2) Ranged Shot

3) Adv. Critical Shot

4) Imp. Head Shot

in 4 seconds. Firing 4 Ranged Shots in 4 seconds is not possible but it is possible with the example above (see screenshot on 1st page for proof).

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Speed did affect the cooldown speed times of specials.. its not a static 3 seconds or 4 seconds..as the system is NOT reporting fractions of seconds it is impossible to read it over a single series of shots, instead you have to average the times over a longer period of the SAME shots.

And to repeat myself, I was testing the inherent qualities of the weapon, not the efficacy of spam techniques. IF DPS was a valid measurement, a weapon with higher DPS would perform at a higher level of damage over time, regardless of technique. A higher DPS weapon firing the exact same special should outperform a lower DPS weapon in all circumstances. They do not. DPS is a false reading. Period.

DPS is only remotely accurate for ranged shot. For every other shot DPS is skewed by combat time.

Furthermore, I soloed all of Sordaans bets in less than 10mins, Soloed Scratch yesterday, Wiped the ground with the 5 Blackscales that jumped me during the Trando rifle mission, etc. My low SAC/High Damage guns work where it counts, kill big HAM nasties that take time and consistant damage to kill, something you wont do with no action left from too fast or too high SAC weapons. You may indeed have success with a speedy false DPS gun kiddie dueling in Coro, but your noob Cannon will fail you when you have 20-30K ham to chew up.

Tested in static tests, Tested in Combat.. a High Damage gun with Low SAC, combined with dual mastery speed mods, will outperform a lower damage gun artificially showing hi DPS by speed experimentation or powerup. This is why I destroyed a 365 Base DPS conversion MKII to get my ADK back.. 0 accu, 94 SAC, and a DPS skewed by conversion of a speed sliced fast krayt gun. It was inferior to a low SAC Higher damage gun, plain and simple.

Bottom line has not changed. DPS in itself is not reliable as a measure of weapons performance.

Message Edited by Lycantha on 06-20-2005 12:35 PM

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Message Edited by XobNoics on 06-20-2005 01:45 PM

sigh.. tired of repeating this. My tests showed that speed did have an effect on weapons cooldown and refire rate.. that was the purpose of the test. again.. repeating one special will show this happening as well as pretending im winning a leet duel. The purpose of my initial testing was to see if specials times were a set time or were they modifiable.. and they are modifiable by speed, but not much. One elite showed it the most, in that with the damage pwp it would consistantly fire at 4 seconds, then with the speed pwp would cycle at 4/4/3/4/4/3, indicating a fractional change in combat speed for that special.

Ok on to test two.

both pistols are powered up with a 21% 0 neg speed pwp. Speed on the low damage pistol is 1.49/.90 my mods. Speed on the high damage pistol is 1.65/1.05 my mods. this brought them both to nearly identical DPS, which was a happy accident, I built the speed pistol on speed alone, but as I stated used a decent tissue on both.

Please dont lecture me on "balanced weaps" because that is exactly what I build and sell. As with most I exp speed and SAC cost on comps and Damage and SAC final build. People are asking for low capped SAC to outlast Jedi healers, and I provide that.

now, out of a total of 40 level 80 Rebel Specforce NPCs killed tonight, 20 with each pistol, rotating between pistols the average kill time for the Higher Damage, slower pistol was 26 seconds. Average time for the faster, lighter damage pistol was 31 seconds. All kills were done maximizing speed of the kill with Kd, crit, alternating specials and usually getting off 3 shots in 4 seconds at least once per NPC and sometimes more, that was my target speed. My goal was to lay as much damage as I could in the shortest time possible.. and yes I am aware of the technique. They were shooting back, I got KD'd, stunned and dizzied, there were misses, it was a combat scenario and not a passive target. I ran out of action one time when I aggroed three NPCs, on the last NPC, and it was nearly dead. Time on that kill was thrown out of the results.

time was taken between first shot on target and the "you have been awarded x faction" message. Specials were to open with KD/crit, root, then alternate rapidfire/crit/ranged. I focused on one NPC at a time, even when taking damage from a second I did not area or break target. I stuck with one type of NPC, the Specforce, as they kill just a bit harder. Pistols were hotkeyed and switched prior to engaging a new target. I did not kite, as I wanted no break in damage from being out of range, basically this was stand and slug.

I dont think 20 per pistol is representative yet.. I plan to go to 100 per, and then possibly trading the guns off for a blind test, if I can find someone willing. At this point it is backing up what I had already found.. DPS can be a false reading and can be tweaked with excessive speed. DPS by itself is a poor indicator.. the full build of the gun is far more important.

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Lycantha wrote:
sigh.. tired of repeating this. My tests showed that speed did have an effect on weapons cooldown and refire rate.. that was the purpose of the test. again.. repeating one special will show this happening as well as pretending im winning a leet duel. The purpose of my initial testing was to see if specials times were a set time or were they modifiable.. and they are modifiable by speed, but not much. One elite showed it the most, in that with the damage pwp it would consistantly fire at 4 seconds, then with the speed pwp would cycle at 4/4/3/4/4/3, indicating a fractional change in combat speed for that special.

since the cooldown of one special is on a different timer than the cooldown of toggling between two or more specials, how do you know that speed affects one special in the same way that it affects using two specials?

Ok on to test two.

both pistols are powered up with a 21% 0 neg speed pwp. Speed on the low damage pistol is 1.49/.90 my mods. Speed on the high damage pistol is 1.65/1.05 my mods. this brought them both to nearly identical DPS, which was a happy accident, I built the speed pistol on speed alone, but as I stated used a decent tissue on both.

Please dont lecture me on "balanced weaps" because that is exactly what I build and sell. As with most I exp speed and SAC cost on comps and Damage and SAC final build. People are asking for low capped SAC to outlast Jedi healers, and I provide that.

now, out of a total of 40 level 80 Rebel Specforce NPCs killed tonight, 20 with each pistol, rotating between pistols the average kill time for the Higher Damage, slower pistol was 26 seconds. Average time for the faster, lighter damage pistol was 31 seconds. All kills were done maximizing speed of the kill with Kd, crit, alternating specials and usually getting off 3 shots in 4 seconds at least once per NPC and sometimes more, that was my target speed. My goal was to lay as much damage as I could in the shortest time possible.. and yes I am aware of the technique. They were shooting back, I got KD'd, stunned and dizzied, there were misses, it was a combat scenario and not a passive target. I ran out of action one time when I aggroed three NPCs, on the last NPC, and it was nearly dead. Time on that kill was thrown out of the results.

time was taken between first shot on target and the "you have been awarded x faction" message. Specials were to open with KD/crit, root, then alternate rapidfire/crit/ranged. I focused on one NPC at a time, even when taking damage from a second I did not area or break target. I stuck with one type of NPC, the Specforce, as they kill just a bit harder. Pistols were hotkeyed and switched prior to engaging a new target. I did not kite, as I wanted no break in damage from being out of range, basically this was stand and slug.

I dont think 20 per pistol is representative yet.. I plan to go to 100 per, and then possibly trading the guns off for a blind test, if I can find someone willing. At this point it is backing up what I had already found.. DPS can be a false reading and can be tweaked with excessive speed. DPS by itself is a poor indicator.. the full build of the gun is far more important.

lol who ever said the full build of a weapon was less usefull than just dps?

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did you make sure that each special was queued up before it was fired? Doesn't criticalshot have a chance to do extra damage? Thats a variable that could throw off the results. The state effects are also a variable that could easily throw off you data.It wouldhave beenbetter if you did your tests on a passive target or one where accuracy would affect the test at a minimum because the misses will also throw off the results.It would have been more accurate if you used only two specials to toggle between because all specials have different speed factors and even though you may have used the same ones in succession it would still cut down on error and the affect of variables, which you have many. Where were you killing these npc's?

In a good study only the things that are being studied would be a variable. Everything else should be a control. The only variable should be the difference in stats of the weapons (except sac, sac should be a control as well).

Ok fine, go to hell aristico..

Im fine with my results and testing, and I dont need to be lectured by a simplistic moron who cannot grasp simple concepts.

this has become a total waste of my time.

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Lycantha wrote:
Ok fine, go to hell aristico..

Im fine with my results and testing, and I dont need to be lectured by a simplistic moron who cannot grasp simple concepts.

this has become a total waste of my time.

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