Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: DPS does matter, mod speed does influence cooldown timers.
Message Edited by XobNoics on 06-19-2005 02:41 PM
You are smart. And probably the only one that thinks like me on this topic. The first damn roll is whether you hit or not. Thenforhow much. What if you miss? Does that affect DPS? Duh.
I keep trying to say that we need to know the base regen rate for action. Are there damage modifers for specials if so what are they? Also, if there are action costs for each special. What are they?Does each shotuse the base cost of the gun plus the special actionor is there aformula.How important is accuracy? What is the beginning of when the "law of diminishing returns" occurs. Is there an overall formula?This will help to not waste exp. points. By knowing this information we will be able to make the most efficient weapon possible. Thereafter only the decision on the type of powerup will be the one that matters. There is more I am sure but I am tired.
I feel that your post brings up valid points on what to look at when creating the weapon. Thanks. I only help others will finallyget it.
laodamas wrote:
Plain and simple here, DPS does not factor in accuracy bonuses, defensive penalities, combat level differences so how can it be an accurate picture of what a gun can do. Max damage, SAC and then speed matter , min damage not very important. DPS IS A LOAD OF CRAP.
Also, to chime in...on the CU Beta, I noticed this that supports this theory:
My Proton Rifle/PFT were in similar speed stats of the listed T-21's (the FT was faster, the PR was from the frog at the time and had the standard). My special legshot, on the PFT was around 3 seconds per shot...the Proton Rifle was around 3.6 to 4 seconds per shot, this was the special cooldown/rate of fire/etc etc.
Maceey wrote:
Alristico wrote:
Maceey wrote:
Alristico wrote:
laodamas wrote:
Mod speed matters, min and max damage matters, action cost matters.DPS is a load of crap that means nothing. DPS is a simple formula ((Min + Max)/2 + Elemental)/speed.
how can you say mod speed, min + max damage matters and then not DPS when DPS is a direct relationship between these values? that doens't make sense.
Because dps is a broken forumle that doesn't properly reflect the damage you can do on mobs
plz back up your statements. I've shown in my first post how it can be used as a indicator of which weapon will do more damage over time. You can't just say "your wrong" without backing it up.
DPS = ((Min + Max)/2 + Elemental)/speed. So the first one isn't used by the game mechanics to determine the amount of damage you do only max damage is. And the second one is or was broken dunno exactly didn't really see a different myself.
DPS doesnt factor in accuracy bonuses, defence penalties, your lvl vs target lvl for PvE.
None of the values that you just mentioned as "matters" factor in these things either. Why do you have double standards?
We can extend that list if you wish. But it doesn't mather the dps forumle isn't usefull to compare weapons.
again, back up your statements, i've already show how it is usefull to compare weapons.
Check the reply up there. And if you accuracy is higher then the mobs def it will increase your damage.
I can make a gun with high DPS by experimenting speed on all componets to skew the dps higher, but it makes little difference to actual combat.
This may either be from the possible bottom speed cap I talked about or because you don't know how to properly test the weapons.
Oke lets talk about weapon testing you used 2 weapons ......... that's not even a real test in my eyes. At least get more then 5 different crafted pistols.
I did the same test many times and always came out with the same results. And I did do the test informally with other weapons and the results were still the same.
Oke then post all the details you have how the weapons are crafted points used what kind of succes dps dmg sac wound etc etc. full details are required in testing like this. and oh then watch your action go down and see how much damage you took etc etc etc.
And what bottom speed cap?
I don't know, did you even read the first post?
I did read it and there is no speed cap. There is a cap on what we can craft each weapon hax max stats it can reach. As for ca/aa it's the diminishing results. And that was stated by a dev during the beta.
We have a thing called(sorry for the typo) diminishing returns.
its diminishing returns, not "diminishing results". And the diminishing returns directly affect character mods and the results of this are shown in the modified speed of a weapon. The higher a characters speed mod the less it will decrease the modified speed value of the weapon.
What? hello? the amount of the decrease but the more speed tapes you get the faster you will fire... sure after you pass the +25 you won't notice it that much but still. And yes well i couldn't recall the words exactly well i'm dutch and english is not my native language.
I can attack at 1 second according to the combat window. I can do it multiple times so that's not lag at all
you have no idea of the actual speed because the timestamps do not measure tenths of a second. Only through a large data set which will multiply the tenths of seconds will it become more accurate.
. but it's either 1 or 2 or really slow 3 second we can't test it like this not enough details. And oh i did test with over 20 weapons and well a real easy result = Low sac,high damage > all else. The difference between 2.0 speed and 2.2 speed weapon is so little compared to having a lower sac or higher damage.
the speed difference isn't significant unless one weapon is faster has lower damage and still has a higher dps than another weapon, which is the case with my test and the results showed that even with a lower damage it still did more damage over time because it was fast enough to give it a higher dps.
Well that's so usefull less damage on the weapon and more speed. The action cost will remain the same and you will run out faster with the fast weapon. What you are saying now is compare the weapon on damage and speed not on dps. The dps formula isn't used by the game mechanics to determine damage. So how can we possibly use it to compare weapons with it.
In my opinion if you want an above average weapon 1) Get a good enhancer to cap max damage. 2) Have the weaponsmith experiment up SAC on componets then put remaining points into speed. 3) On final combine max out or cap max damage and then put remainder into SAC. In the end you should have a high damage weapon with a very managable SAC. You can then use PuP's made by a 14 point artisan to customize your weapon with negligible penalties.
is there such thing as a 14 point artisan? I'm thought the cap was 12.
humans get a +15 artisan exp i think and a +25 tape(or multiple tapes to get 25)= 14
humans only need a +5 experimentation tape to cap. You are mistaken. The overall cap is +20 and this will only give you and extra 2 experimentation points so that you have +12.
I see you found out it's possible to get 14point artisan.
The base DPS on a weapon made this way will be lower, but with high damage and low SAC you will hit harder and be able to use specials longer. Add a speed PuP and you will out damage those high DPS high SAC weapons.
why add a speed pup if you don't think speed matters? DPS takes into account speed so if you lower the speed with a pup then you increase the DPS.
Offcourse Speed matters but not as much as sac or dmg that's why he's talking about using a pup to improve the speed. And yes you increase the dps. but it's a waste to craft a good enhanced weapon purely for dps.
how do you know any of this? back up your claims as I have mine.
Because it allready has been posted only like 20 times on these forums by different people with different tests. Max damage will deterimine the base damage you do with a special. Sac will determine the amount of specials youcan use. And a good special is much better then a standard ranged attack everybody knows that.And what backup do you have for your claims that little test of yours? just do a search there are some very big and great tests posted on these forums.
And now i'm tired and going to bed and well i no longer feel the need to post here since you can believe what you want the rest of us knows what's best. There have been so much posts about this subject and most of us decided that damage and sac matters more.
Message Edited by Maceey on 06-20-2005 12:04 AM
laodamas wrote:
Plain and simple here, DPS does not factor in accuracy bonuses, defensive penalities, combat level differences so how can it be an accurate picture of what a gun can do. Max damage, SAC and then speed matter , min damage not very important. DPS IS A LOAD OF CRAP.
max damage, sac and speed do not take into account accuracy, def mods, or combat level either. So how can you say they are more useful than dps because dps doesn't take these things into account?
Min damage is important when you're fighting opponents with accuracy.
Blackmoore wrote:
You are smart. And probably the only one that thinks like me on this topic. The first damn roll is whether you hit or not. Thenforhow much. What if you miss? Does that affect DPS? Duh.
I keep trying to say that we need to know the base regen rate for action. Are there damage modifers for specials if so what are they? Also, if there are action costs for each special. What are they?Does each shotuse the base cost of the gun plus the special actionor is there aformula.How important is accuracy? What is the beginning of when the "law of diminishing returns" occurs. Is there an overall formula?This will help to not waste exp. points. By knowing this information we will be able to make the most efficient weapon possible. Thereafter only the decision on the type of powerup will be the one that matters. There is more I am sure but I am tired.
I feel that your post brings up valid points on what to look at when creating the weapon. Thanks. I only help others will finallyget it.
laodamas wrote:
Plain and simple here, DPS does not factor in accuracy bonuses, defensive penalities, combat level differences so how can it be an accurate picture of what a gun can do. Max damage, SAC and then speed matter , min damage not very important. DPS IS A LOAD OF CRAP.
double standards.
you say dps isn't as useful as max damage, sac, or speed because dps doens't take into account acc, def mods, and lvl but neither does max damage, sac, or speed.
you have to toggle between two specials with different cooldowns in order to properly test speed.
Lycantha wrote:
laodamas wrote:
Mod speed matters, min and max damage matters, action cost matters, DPS is a load of crap that means nothing. DPS is a simple formula ((Min + Max)/2 + Elemental)/speed. DPS doesnt factor in accuracy bonuses, defence penalties, your lvl vs target lvl for PvE. I can make a gun with high DPS by experimenting speed on all componets to skew the dps higher, but it makes little difference to actual combat.
In my opinion if you want an above average weapon 1) Get a good enhancer to cap max damage. 2) Have the weaponsmith experiment up SAC on componets then put remaining points into speed. 3) On final combine max out or cap max damage and then put remainder into SAC. In the end you should have a high damage weapon with a very managable SAC. You can then use PuP's made by a 14 point artisan to customize your weapon with negligible penalties.
The base DPS on a weapon made this way will be lower, but with high damage and low SAC you will hit harder and be able to use specials longer. Add a speed PuP and you will out damage those high DPS high SAC weapons.
QFE
I spent 4 hours yesterday shooting the same mob, using the same specials on auto-repeat, and trying different
combinations of pwps, along with differing weapons. Without going into miles of specifics, bottom line is that Damage and SAC consistantly outperformed weapons with false DPS readings generated by speed.
The best comparisons were made using the same guns.. all my Carbs are 73 SAC Elite/Mk IIS accu 17 with base DPS from 330-350. I used powerups with +23% damage 0 penalty and speed powerups with 21% speed increase 0 penalty. In all cases the speed powerup gave the weapon increased theoretical DPS over the Damage Powerup.. but measuring the actual damage generated over ten time stamped specials (legshot) the Higher damage weapons were superior in every case. The small amount of time saved over 10 shots did NOT make up for the reduction in damage on each shot.
The worst performer was the Proton.. and it has the highest base DPS with speed powerup applied. 396 base. Dismal accuracy and high SAC does NOT help this carb either.
Much depends on your build.. My combat char is MCarb/MBH/Master Marks/pistols 0003. I have a lot of speed modifications, accu is over 330 with food. For me the diminishing returns brought by more speed do not make up for low SAC and Damage.
People are hanging on DPS as a holy grail.. and I give up trying to educate them. Worst of all is the genius bragging in CG about some horrendous DPS using a max speed -42 accu powerup. One duel generally shows them the error of that.
Message Edited by Lycantha on 06-20-2005 12:07 AM
Why? Manually toggleing between two specials is meaningless unless it was macroed, which in itself would be meaningless because of the timer issues using a macro.
My testing was on a single rooted elite animal.. same conditions each time, same range, same accu, a kinetic animal that did nothing but stand there rooted and take hits. No variables, no debuffs done to me, no states applied.
Auto Attack allowed the comp to dictate the timing of shots in a predictable measurable fashion without introducing human variables manually toggling separate shots.
The test was to determine what powerups were more effective at my level and mods. Since I tested guns with speed powerups and higher DPS against the same guns equipped with Damage powerups and lower DPS there was no variation at ALL in the guns except the powerup. Results were the same with each gun tested, E-11Mk 11, Elite, Proton, Czerka, etc. In all cases the damage over 10 shots using the Damage Powerup was higher than the same gun with a speed pwp applied, even though the speed powerup generated a higher DPS number.
Please explain WHY you feel toggleing is necessary to test.. toggleing is a tactic, not an inherent test of a weapons ablilities. Your methodology is flawed, your premise is wrong, and you cannot support it.
Lycantha wrote:
"you have to toggle between two specials with different cooldowns in order to properly test speed."
Why? Manually toggleing between two specials is meaningless unless it was macroed, which in itself would be meaningless because of the timer issues using a macro.
My testing was on a single rooted elite animal.. same conditions each time, same range, same accu, a kinetic animal that did nothing but stand there rooted and take hits. No variables, no debuffs done to me, no states applied.
Auto Attack allowed the comp to dictate the timing of shots in a predictable measurable fashion without introducing human variables manually toggling separate shots.
The test was to determine what powerups were more effective at my level and mods. Since I tested guns with speed powerups and higher DPS against the same guns equipped with Damage powerups and lower DPS there was no variation at ALL in the guns except the powerup. Results were the same with each gun tested, E-11Mk 11, Elite, Proton, Czerka, etc. In all cases the damage over 10 shots using the Damage Powerup was higher than the same gun with a speed pwp applied, even though the speed powerup generated a higher DPS number.
Please explain WHY you feel toggleing is necessary to test.. toggleing is a tactic, not an inherent test of a weapons ablilities. Your methodology is flawed, your premise is wrong, and you cannot support it.
the cooldown of using one special is different from the cooldown of using two specials.
manual toggling between two specials is accurate as long as you keep the next special queued.
Alristico wrote:
Lycantha wrote:
"you have to toggle between two specials with different cooldowns in order to properly test speed."
Why? Manually toggleing between two specials is meaningless unless it was macroed, which in itself would be meaningless because of the timer issues using a macro.
My testing was on a single rooted elite animal.. same conditions each time, same range, same accu, a kinetic animal that did nothing but stand there rooted and take hits. No variables, no debuffs done to me, no states applied.
Auto Attack allowed the comp to dictate the timing of shots in a predictable measurable fashion without introducing human variables manually toggling separate shots.
The test was to determine what powerups were more effective at my level and mods. Since I tested guns with speed powerups and higher DPS against the same guns equipped with Damage powerups and lower DPS there was no variation at ALL in the guns except the powerup. Results were the same with each gun tested, E-11Mk 11, Elite, Proton, Czerka, etc. In all cases the damage over 10 shots using the Damage Powerup was higher than the same gun with a speed pwp applied, even though the speed powerup generated a higher DPS number.
Please explain WHY you feel toggleing is necessary to test.. toggleing is a tactic, not an inherent test of a weapons ablilities. Your methodology is flawed, your premise is wrong, and you cannot support it.
the cooldown of using one special is different from the cooldown of using two specials.
manual toggling between two specials is accurate as long as you keep the next special queued.
each special has it's own cooldown, yes, genius. You are NOT worth a reply anymore, as you cannot even explain your own testing method adequately. Manual Toggling requires a keystroke, timing and introduces error, and cannot possibly be done accurately over the time period it takes to test properly. We are dealing with unseen fractions of seconds in the speed calculation, and no method that requires a human keystroke will be valid. End of subject, and I'm done.