Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Further Weapon Changes in the Combat Upgrade
Vade_WS
Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:02 am
#27
Let's see... damage is capped. Speed, I'm assuming, is still capped. This essentially devalues top-end krayt tissues, gorax shards, and acklay bones.
Weapons will only be considered uber within their weapon class/level. So, DE-10s and other uber weapons & schematics have been devalued.
Are there caps on other stats?
I'm wondering what experimentation is going to look like. If you use a some really good krayt tissue making a blaster, then maybe you won't need to experiment much on damage and speed. That will leave you with more points to experiment on other stats. I guess improving efficiency will be our main goal, but will those stats be capped on weapons to prevent special speeds from being too fast?
Weapons will only be considered uber within their weapon class/level. So, DE-10s and other uber weapons & schematics have been devalued.
Are there caps on other stats?
I'm wondering what experimentation is going to look like. If you use a some really good krayt tissue making a blaster, then maybe you won't need to experiment much on damage and speed. That will leave you with more points to experiment on other stats. I guess improving efficiency will be our main goal, but will those stats be capped on weapons to prevent special speeds from being too fast?
Abbell
Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:57 pm
#28
Gearbow wrote:
please help me figure out what might happen to my rifles
I don't need exact but try even speculate base on what you may of heard or seen so far. I am not WS so keep in lay terms. hehe.
basickly I just want to know if these will still be uber after CU. Does T21 still consider heavy weapon and use the +25% damage mods? How will that work ? or are they changing that to? Are krayt tissue even going to worth anything as I heard all weapons will be same damage and do not decay?
Your weapons are going to be turned into fodder! There really is not much of a better way to explain this. They will be only a few points (40-60?) over base weapons. Stallone's 3k T-21 will be maybe 40-60 point better than yours if he is lucky. Weaponsmiths are going to be stealth nerfed.... Those of us who have been around a long time see it comming. Weapons will not only have a hard cap, but slicing will have a soft cap. Which means your tissues you have been saving up will be almost worthless. A garbage T21 made with subpar components and resources has a greater chance of a good slice than an enhanced one made with top resources.... by poor slice I am talking 1-9% or so. Even then the examples given the math does not even properly add up. From what I understand the only thing that will make any difference at all for a WS in creating weapons is having 12pts. Beyond that it wont really matter as much as it did in the past. Your tissues (from what I read) will not change stats after CU which means you really lose out.
The skill mods you posses right now will not speed cap you, in fact you will barely notice a difference according to some of the results written. This game is going to be all about levels. You cant help a friend who is lower level whithout ruining their chance for xp. You wont do any real damage to a high level mobs because your level will be to low.
I highly reccomend putting on some reading glasses and doing some research into these facts. The Testing and Game Update Forums have alot of information
Vade_WS
Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:01 pm
#29
Wow. It doesn't look like we'll be left with much toexperiment on.
lvthunder1 wrote:
Yes Wound chance is also capped... You have attempted to craft a E11 Carbine Mark II with an out of range attribute (wound chance=11.507629). The max value for that attribute on this item is 10.35. Your crafting tool has automaticcly adjusted the values to be in range.
lvthunder1 wrote:
And another thing. Didn't this just start as to be a professon balance not rewriting the whole game.
So the claim goes.
Welcome to EQIII SWG 2.0.
Don't they remember that 2.0 releases almost always suck?
Bluedoots
Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:02 am
#30
I suspect the people posting in forums such as this aren't representative of the server population. Most people playing the game probably don't have the time or ability to get 90% armor and high end weapons. The CU equalizes everything so that players will have weapons and armor that are just as effective as everyone else on their level. While this may not be popular with high end gamers, it may work best for the majority of players.
I have a resource vendor where I sell my resources that are no longer the best. I end up talking to a lot of beginning weaponsmiths who ask me to break up 100k blocks of resources. When I ask them about resources they have collected already, I find they have missed recent resources they should have collected. If they have a phrik aluminum they don't replace it when a new better one spawns because they already have a phrik. The rhodium steel on my vendor has a low OQ and inevitably they complain that the OQ is too low so they'll find a better one for their barrels. When they open their shops their weapons have stats substantially lower than mine and the stats don't get better with time. The same low stat weapons sit on the vendor until the player disappears from the game. Very few new smiths seem to succeed. That's the way it goes in real life, but maybe in a game it's not so good to have so many people fail. The CU seems to be designed to allow everyone to make weapons just effective as the top smiths.
Maybe SWG has concluded that the current system is too complex for most of the player base. The players starting the game now seem to me to have more trouble understanding how things work than the players who started in 2003. The newer system may work better for them.
I have a resource vendor where I sell my resources that are no longer the best. I end up talking to a lot of beginning weaponsmiths who ask me to break up 100k blocks of resources. When I ask them about resources they have collected already, I find they have missed recent resources they should have collected. If they have a phrik aluminum they don't replace it when a new better one spawns because they already have a phrik. The rhodium steel on my vendor has a low OQ and inevitably they complain that the OQ is too low so they'll find a better one for their barrels. When they open their shops their weapons have stats substantially lower than mine and the stats don't get better with time. The same low stat weapons sit on the vendor until the player disappears from the game. Very few new smiths seem to succeed. That's the way it goes in real life, but maybe in a game it's not so good to have so many people fail. The CU seems to be designed to allow everyone to make weapons just effective as the top smiths.
Maybe SWG has concluded that the current system is too complex for most of the player base. The players starting the game now seem to me to have more trouble understanding how things work than the players who started in 2003. The newer system may work better for them.
Lotok
Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:01 am
#31
But then the smiths who have taken the time to look at schematics, search for the correct resources they need and and pour time and credits into the profession are being penalised here. Surely its not thought to be fair that because some crafters arent getting the right things and looking at schematics they schems should be changed to make it easier for them? So they dont need to learn anything or use any kind of skill.
That simply makes the profession a weapon assembler, not a smith.
Message Edited by Lotok on 04-23-2005 01:02 PM
Vade_WS
Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:26 am
#32
The CU seems to be designed to allow everyone to make weapons just effective as the top smiths.
And to make them succeed with little work. That's the problem.
I'm a relatively recent WS, but I realized that if I wanted to compete with established WS it was going to require a lot of work and credits. And it did. But the new system punishes anyone that has put the effort into being good in the profession.
"I'm sorry, we can't allow you to excell. You are making the people that aren't willing to put the effort into the game jealous and their whining is annoying us. Stop making them whine or we'll stop you."
I can understand trying to create a system where everyone can participate. I even welcome it. We'd all love a system where new and novice WSs can sell their weapons so that they can get ahead. It requires careful planning to design a multi-tiered economy.
What we don't like is the system being destroyed to the point where every one produces the exact same weapons. It has rendered all our efforts meaningless.
Bluedoots
Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:58 am
#33
I've been trying to figure if there's any strategy in weapon crafting after the CU and I think I might have one: Use crummy resources.
Weapons are going to have a damage per second (dps) cap after slicing. There are two factors that go into this, damage and speed. For example, one weapon might do 400 damage every 4 seconds for 100 dps and another might do 200 damage every 2 seconds for 100 dps. Same damage per second for each weapon but different ways of getting there. It appears to me that the weapon that does 400 damage every 4 seconds would be the better weapon to use.
The slower weapon would have half of the HAM (SAC) cost because it would take half as many shots to do the same damage. Also slower weapons are effectively faster than the stats, at least the way they currently work before the CU. The first shot appears to me to be almost immediate and the delay comes after the shot.
For example, to kill a 1200 hit point creature it would take 3 hits from the slow weapon or 6 hits from the fast weapon. So the weapons would work like this:
Slow weapon
400 damage - 4 sec delay - 400 damage - 4 sec delay - 400 damage
1200 damage for the kill in 8 seconds
Fast weapon
200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage
1200 damage for the kill in 10 seconds
I understand they are adding a windup or something like that before the first shot but unless the delay before the first shot takes the maximum pause time the slower weapon will still get the kill faster. If you are hunting and take the first shot I don't think the windup will matter no matter how long it takes.
So the strategy will be: Build the worst possible weapon that will cap damage per second after a damage slice.
You'll need to figure out what the maximum slice allowed is and experiment your weapon damage line up to the point where the max slice will just barely cap the dps of your weapon. I'll call this the preslice minimum dps that would cap dps after slicing (preslice minimum). It sounds like slicing will be a fixed percent every time and will take you to the dps cap whether the slice is speed or damage.
Good resources increase the speed of your weapon even if you don't experiment on speed. You'd build the weapon and experiment on damage. If you have exp points left when you reach (preslice minimum) you should go back and use worse resources so that you can use all your points on damage.
Examples:
Use good resources and only experiment on damage
A damage slice will easily hit the dps cap.
4.0 speed and 370 damage before slicing.
4.0 speed and 400 damage after slicing.
100 dps
Use crummy resources and only experiment on damage
You've played around with resources and found this is the worst weapon (preslice minimum) you can make that will still hit the dps cap after slicing.
4.5 speed and 335 damage before slicing.
4.5 speed and 450 damage after slicing.
100 dps
According to my reasoning above the weapon built with crummy resources will be the better weapon.
Krayt tissue, spider fangs and gorax shards would be bad to use since they would increase weapon speed in addition to adding damage. Enhancements such as high velocity feed mechs and Nym motors would be good since they only increase damage and don't add speed. Acklay bones and high caliber projectile barrels would be especially good since they slow the weapon and add damage.
The only weapons that I can think of that would use our traditional logic of maxing speed and damage are grenades. I don't think anyone slices grenades. You'd use your best resources on grenades and crummy resources on ranged and melee weapons.
Is my reasoning correct?
Weapons are going to have a damage per second (dps) cap after slicing. There are two factors that go into this, damage and speed. For example, one weapon might do 400 damage every 4 seconds for 100 dps and another might do 200 damage every 2 seconds for 100 dps. Same damage per second for each weapon but different ways of getting there. It appears to me that the weapon that does 400 damage every 4 seconds would be the better weapon to use.
The slower weapon would have half of the HAM (SAC) cost because it would take half as many shots to do the same damage. Also slower weapons are effectively faster than the stats, at least the way they currently work before the CU. The first shot appears to me to be almost immediate and the delay comes after the shot.
For example, to kill a 1200 hit point creature it would take 3 hits from the slow weapon or 6 hits from the fast weapon. So the weapons would work like this:
Slow weapon
400 damage - 4 sec delay - 400 damage - 4 sec delay - 400 damage
1200 damage for the kill in 8 seconds
Fast weapon
200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage
1200 damage for the kill in 10 seconds
I understand they are adding a windup or something like that before the first shot but unless the delay before the first shot takes the maximum pause time the slower weapon will still get the kill faster. If you are hunting and take the first shot I don't think the windup will matter no matter how long it takes.
So the strategy will be: Build the worst possible weapon that will cap damage per second after a damage slice.
You'll need to figure out what the maximum slice allowed is and experiment your weapon damage line up to the point where the max slice will just barely cap the dps of your weapon. I'll call this the preslice minimum dps that would cap dps after slicing (preslice minimum). It sounds like slicing will be a fixed percent every time and will take you to the dps cap whether the slice is speed or damage.
Good resources increase the speed of your weapon even if you don't experiment on speed. You'd build the weapon and experiment on damage. If you have exp points left when you reach (preslice minimum) you should go back and use worse resources so that you can use all your points on damage.
Examples:
Use good resources and only experiment on damage
A damage slice will easily hit the dps cap.
4.0 speed and 370 damage before slicing.
4.0 speed and 400 damage after slicing.
100 dps
Use crummy resources and only experiment on damage
You've played around with resources and found this is the worst weapon (preslice minimum) you can make that will still hit the dps cap after slicing.
4.5 speed and 335 damage before slicing.
4.5 speed and 450 damage after slicing.
100 dps
According to my reasoning above the weapon built with crummy resources will be the better weapon.
Krayt tissue, spider fangs and gorax shards would be bad to use since they would increase weapon speed in addition to adding damage. Enhancements such as high velocity feed mechs and Nym motors would be good since they only increase damage and don't add speed. Acklay bones and high caliber projectile barrels would be especially good since they slow the weapon and add damage.
The only weapons that I can think of that would use our traditional logic of maxing speed and damage are grenades. I don't think anyone slices grenades. You'd use your best resources on grenades and crummy resources on ranged and melee weapons.
Is my reasoning correct?
ShugFlurry
Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:08 am
#34
prolly, seeing as how the devs feel that they should level the playing field and make the vets suffer to pull in more subscribers.
Kobb
Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:59 am
#35
I've been playing the game since launch, and it was only about 8 months ago that I created an alt that I was going to use strictly for crafting. Well, since then, I have spent more time, money, effort, and research into WS than anything else in the game. I check my resources daily, I try and either collect or bid on weapon enhancements, I read everything and anything that might help me make a better or more customized weapon. I know some of you have been doing this for years, and I've only been doing it 8 months, but it has become even more enjoyable than playing my original combat char. If these changes come about, it will ultimately, and sadly, kill the weaponsmith profession. If DPS is going to be the only characteristic that matters, why doesn't SOE just go ahead and place their OWN vendors in the bazaar, with the same rifles/pistols/swords/VKs for the same price so everyone has the exact same weapon? I didn't love being a WS because it makes great money, which it does, but it came to be so much more enjoyable when you hit the amazing successes and a 35% dmg slice sit back, and say, wow, thats a hell of a nice weapon I just made and put serious time into. Someone will really enjoy using this. Sorry, but if I can't feel that way anymore about smithing, SOE has lost yet another 3 year vet.
Vade_WS
Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:39 am
#37
Bluedoots,
Your reasoning is scary. And, if you are right, it very badly breaks weaponsmithing.
Your reasoning is scary. And, if you are right, it very badly breaks weaponsmithing.
KyridIce
Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:58 am
#38
wow, beautiful post.
Bluedoots wrote:
I've been trying to figure if there's any strategy in weapon crafting after the CU and I think I might have one: Use crummy resources.
Weapons are going to have a damage per second (dps) cap after slicing. There are two factors that go into this, damage and speed. For example, one weapon might do 400 damage every 4 seconds for 100 dps and another might do 200 damage every 2 seconds for 100 dps. Same damage per second for each weapon but different ways of getting there. It appears to me that the weapon that does 400 damage every 4 seconds would be the better weapon to use.
The slower weapon would have half of the HAM (SAC) cost because it would take half as many shots to do the same damage. Also slower weapons are effectively faster than the stats, at least the way they currently work before the CU. The first shot appears to me to be almost immediate and the delay comes after the shot.
For example, to kill a 1200 hit point creature it would take 3 hits from the slow weapon or 6 hits from the fast weapon. So the weapons would work like this:
Slow weapon
400 damage - 4 sec delay - 400 damage - 4 sec delay - 400 damage
1200 damage for the kill in 8 seconds
Fast weapon
200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage - 2 sec delay - 200 damage
1200 damage for the kill in 10 seconds
I understand they are adding a windup or something like that before the first shot but unless the delay before the first shot takes the maximum pause time the slower weapon will still get the kill faster. If you are hunting and take the first shot I don't think the windup will matter no matter how long it takes.
So the strategy will be: Build the worst possible weapon that will cap damage per second after a damage slice.
You'll need to figure out what the maximum slice allowed is and experiment your weapon damage line up to the point where the max slice will just barely cap the dps of your weapon. I'll call this the preslice minimum dps that would cap dps after slicing (preslice minimum). It sounds like slicing will be a fixed percent every time and will take you to the dps cap whether the slice is speed or damage.
Good resources increase the speed of your weapon even if you don't experiment on speed. You'd build the weapon and experiment on damage. If you have exp points left when you reach (preslice minimum) you should go back and use worse resources so that you can use all your points on damage.
Examples:
Use good resources and only experiment on damage
A damage slice will easily hit the dps cap.
4.0 speed and 370 damage before slicing.
4.0 speed and 400 damage after slicing.
100 dps
Use crummy resources and only experiment on damage
You've played around with resources and found this is the worst weapon (preslice minimum) you can make that will still hit the dps cap after slicing.
4.5 speed and 335 damage before slicing.
4.5 speed and 450 damage after slicing.
100 dps
According to my reasoning above the weapon built with crummy resources will be the better weapon.
Krayt tissue, spider fangs and gorax shards would be bad to use since they would increase weapon speed in addition to adding damage. Enhancements such as high velocity feed mechs and Nym motors would be good since they only increase damage and don't add speed. Acklay bones and high caliber projectile barrels would be especially good since they slow the weapon and add damage.
The only weapons that I can think of that would use our traditional logic of maxing speed and damage are grenades. I don't think anyone slices grenades. You'd use your best resources on grenades and crummy resources on ranged and melee weapons.
Is my reasoning correct?