Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Well after a lot of testing. Base DPS means nothing. Read inside.
anetri
Fri May 20, 2005 7:17 am
#27
When testing please remember one key word here "base." The base dps is just that its an average of the damage divided by the speed of the weapon.So going out andhitting specialsto test base damage is not an accurate test of base dps. Also remember to do it on a combat level equal to yoursso you dontget any pluses or minuses to the damage. As far as im concerned base dps is just a way to easily compare difrent weapons.
raider7734
Fri May 20, 2005 9:22 am
#28
AldaronTavish wrote:
Max damage isn't the only stat you should be looking at. The best weapons will be those with both a high min and high max with as little difference between them as possible.
For example a 100-1000 is far worse than a 500-1000.
(100+1000)/2 = 550 per hit with base attack
(500+1000)/2 = 750
When I Melee Hit a lair,the damage done is exactly the Max Damage of my weapon.
Please explain howMin Damage hasanything at all to do with this.
BTW the lair has no CL or armor to complicate things, and it's not an empty lair (which would take 5x normal damage).
Ipseck
Fri May 20, 2005 10:26 am
#29
lairs haven't ever been indicitive of true damage potential.
Even if you take what you say to be the end all be all - max damage is what determines damage - you still have speed and accuracy that change things - so the base dps is still usefull for comparing weapons. If my weapon is 880 damage at 1.73 speed and your's is 1100 at 3.5 speed (all else [general and specific accuraces, general and specific speeds] being equal), I'm going to be doing more damage than you. period.
I think people are getting too caught up in trying to nail down the hard numbers instead of just looking at the tendancies. You don't need to know absolutes to be able to tell how something works.
raider7734
Fri May 20, 2005 2:20 pm
#30
Vade_WS wrote:
raider7734 wrote:
When I Melee Hit a lair, the damage done is exactly the Max Damage of my weapon.
Please explain how Min Damage has anything at all to do with this.
BTW the lair has no CL or armor to complicate things, and it's not an empty lair (which would take 5x normal damage).
That's because a lair has no defense, so you will hit for max damage. Now, if you are only fighting lairs, that'd be great, but you aren't.
So if I attack something with defense, Min damage starts to matter? I understandhigher melee defense, for example, makes me get hit for less. But is it working against Max damage as a starting point, or is Min included somehow?
Looking for answers here... when someone says"base damage" is Min+Max/2, and I findan example where the numbers show Min counts for nothing,Iwonder what's going on.
raider7734
Fri May 20, 2005 5:00 pm
#31
Alright...if shooting a lair isn't a good test, since it has no defense,how about CL 81 malklocs?
My question is, where does base damage come from? (Min+Max)/2? Min? Max? Neither?
Weapon A
E11 Mk2 carbine, 428-885, Accuracy 9, Energy damage
Weapon B
Laser carbine, 295-590, Accuracy 0, Energy damage
Weapon C
E11 Mk2 carbine, 263-771, Accuracy 0, Energy damage
I recorded which weapon was used, Min damage, Max damage, the average, how much Ranged shot hit for, and how much damage was absorbed by the creature's armorout of how much possible damage.
Calculated values, are the ratio of Max/Min damage for each weapon, the % resist of the creature's armor,and the following ratios: Damage / Min, Damage / Max, Damage / Average.
The three weapons have different Max/Min ratios, especially comparingB to C (2.0vs. 2.93)...so there's enough variation here that we should be able to see what actual damage is proportional to:
RangedRangedRanged Ranged
Shot ShotShot Shot
WeaponMinMaxAvgMax/Min DamageAbsorbed Possible Armor% Dam / MinDam / MaxDam / Avg
A428885656.52.067757 446392 839 46.722288 1.0420561 0.5039548 0.6793602
B295590442.52.0 298261 560 46.607143 1.0101695 0.5050847 0.6734463
C2637715172.9315589 383336 72046.666667 1.4562738 0.4967575 0.7408124
Theratio that stays nearly constant on these three tests is Ranged Shot Damage / Max Damage.
Therefore,actual damage output ismost closely proportional to the MAX DAMAGE of the weapon...not Min, and not (Min+Max)/2
While'Estimated Base DPS' might be a reasonably-well working rule of thumb for comparing weapons, it's somewhat flawed for including Minimum damage, which appears to have noeffect. A better measure of the basicdamage vs. delay characteristics of a weapon would besimply Max damage / Speed.
grifta
Fri May 20, 2005 6:40 pm
#32
>
> laser rifle
> dmg 465-960
> base dps 301.19
> modified dps 478.94
> base speed 2.36
> modified speed 1.49
> did 492 dmg every 3 seconds with range shot
>
>
> t21
> dmg 459-968
> base dps 295.27
> modified dps 469.53
> base speed 2.41
> modified 1.52
> did 496 dmg every 3 seconds with range shot
>
> laser rifle
> dmg 465-960
> base dps 301.19
> modified dps 478.94
> base speed 2.36
> modified speed 1.49
> did 492 dmg every 3 seconds with range shot
>
>
> t21
> dmg 459-968
> base dps 295.27
> modified dps 469.53
> base speed 2.41
> modified 1.52
> did 496 dmg every 3 seconds with range shot
>
Max damage is all that matters with weapons. Aslong as you hit less than 2 seconds on modified speed, the weapons max damage is all that matters and the proof is in these last 2 posts.
Vade_WS
Fri May 20, 2005 6:41 pm
#33
raider7734 wrote:
Alright... if shooting a lair isn't a good test, since it has no defense, how about CL 81 malklocs?My question is, where does base damage come from? (Min+Max)/2? Min? Max? Neither?
It really shouldn't be surprising that the devs aren't telling us everything about the combat system. There is a lot we don't know.
Now, please don't take the following the wrong way, but have you tried to make sure your tests are unbiased? There are a number of implicit assumptions in your tests that might reinforce your conclusion. Have you tried to come up with scenarios that would test for min damage? I've noticed that you haven't stated your character's stats. Your speed, defense, and accuracy mods all matter. I'm assuming that since you aren't dying when attacking a CL81 creature then you are CL80. Perhaps min matters more for a weaker character? Have you tested that?
The only conclusion that I can come to is that for small tests you have run that max damage and speed are the best factors for your style of combat.
Originally, the damage dealt in combat was somewhat randomly selected between the min and max damage of a weapon, modified by a special multiplier (and a few other factors). How does it work now? We really don't know.
There are some obvious cases where max damage is the primary factor for damage dealt. What about min? Well, that might come into play more when you are dealing with a creature that is more than a few combat levels above you. A good situation to get killed in, so not so easy to test.
Now, I don't disagree with you that base DPS doesn't tell you a lot about damage dealt while in combat. It's kind of like the rated mpg of a car before you buy it. It's nice information, but it isn't really accurate because mpg depends on tire inflation, outside temperature, the kind of gas you are using, your driving style and a number of other factors.
Base DPS should be treated in the same way. Look at all the stats when you are selecting a weapon. Know how you are going to use the weapon. Don't believe that base DPS is an accurate statistic. It's not meant to be.
This thread started out with a friendly warning not to be too focused on base DPS. For weaponsmiths, however, DPS is a decent stat for comparison purposes. We use it to determine how to make weapons better and that's about it.
If max damage is what works for you then great. Have all your weapons custom made and you'll be happy. In the meantime, we do appreciate all the data you are collecting about combat, but you might want to take more time to think about the tests you are running.
boceifus2000
Sat May 21, 2005 4:48 am
#34
I have only seen one post here say anything about accuracy. All the DPS/Max Dmg/SAC will do you no good if you can't hit the target. Base DPS is based on a regular attack cycle and also figured for if you hit the target with every shot (which does not happen)from what I see. When you add in specials, some take longer to get off and recover more quickly than others, you add a whole new set of numbers. From all these post everybodies numbers are different based on there template and modifers.
I would rather have a weapon that has +15 or more accuracy bonus, 260-300 DPS. With that accuracy bonus I will be hitting a lot more than the weapons you see with +10 or less that ya'll keep comparing, thus increasing my DPS over the estimated base/estimated "your DPS" stat of the weapon.
I have seen DPS weapons 350+ but the AB is crap. (+10 or less) I don't want that weapon because you wont hit your target as often, thus actually decreasing your DPS. That has been a theory I have been testing and so far I havent had any problems with a well balanced weapon over one that has every component maxed out on speed/sac.
Biofinger
Sat May 21, 2005 5:21 am
#35
DPS is based on minimum damage, maximum damage and speed.
Advanced Laser Rifle
AS 2.63
Mod AS 1.73
Damage 481-987
Base DPS 278.66
Mod DPS 425.05
This rifle for instance. Base DPS calculation:
(481 + 987 / 2) / 2.63 = 279. Pretty accurate. Probably this is the formula for DPS which is pretty simple. Speed is probably more than 2.63, only it only shows 2 numbers. Now, I think accuracy is determining how many damage you do. For example, the higher your accuracy, the more max damage counts, and the less min damage counts. Probably, if you have about 10000 accuracy you will do the max damage * special damage mod. In this way, DPS is only a measurement for how good a weapon is, it says nothing about actual damage.
Also, the speed formula is said to be logaritmic. If this is indeed true, it means that the higher your speed mod gets, the less impact it has on your actual speed. Same probably goes for the speed on you weapon. If someone has a speed mod of 50 and you add 25 to it with clothing mods, his marginal speed will be higher than someone with 100 speed and 25 speed added. At some point, your maximum damage is more important than your speed (with this point I mean the point when you marginal speed is lower than your marginal damage, you will have more benifits from more damage then). This point could be at 2.0 speed, but it's hard to calculate and probably diffirent for almost every player.
Message Edited by Biofinger on 05-21-2005 02:23 PM
AldaronTavish
Sat May 21, 2005 11:25 am
#36
Vade_WS wrote:
raider7734 wrote:
Alright... if shooting a lair isn't a good test, since it has no defense, how about CL 81 malklocs?My question is, where does base damage come from? (Min+Max)/2? Min? Max? Neither?
It really shouldn't be surprising that the devs aren't telling us everything about the combat system. There is a lot we don't know.
Now, please don't take the following the wrong way, but have you tried to make sure your tests are unbiased? There are a number of implicit assumptions in your tests that might reinforce your conclusion. Have you tried to come up with scenarios that would test for min damage? I've noticed that you haven't stated your character's stats. Your speed, defense, and accuracy mods all matter. I'm assuming that since you aren't dying when attacking a CL81 creature then you are CL80. Perhaps min matters more for a weaker character? Have you tested that?
The only conclusion that I can come to is that for small tests you have run that max damage and speed are the best factors for your style of combat.
Originally, the damage dealt in combat was somewhat randomly selected between the min and max damage of a weapon, modified by a special multiplier (and a few other factors). How does it work now? We really don't know.
There are some obvious cases where max damage is the primary factor for damage dealt. What about min? Well, that might come into play more when you are dealing with a creature that is more than a few combat levels above you. A good situation to get killed in, so not so easy to test.
Now, I don't disagree with you that base DPS doesn't tell you a lot about damage dealt while in combat. It's kind of like the rated mpg of a car before you buy it. It's nice information, but it isn't really accurate because mpg depends on tire inflation, outside temperature, the kind of gas you are using, your driving style and a number of other factors.
Base DPS should be treated in the same way. Look at all the stats when you are selecting a weapon. Know how you are going to use the weapon. Don't believe that base DPS is an accurate statistic. It's not meant to be.
This thread started out with a friendly warning not to be too focused on base DPS. For weaponsmiths, however, DPS is a decent stat for comparison purposes. We use it to determine how to make weapons better and that's about it.
If max damage is what works for you then great. Have all your weapons custom made and you'll be happy. In the meantime, we do appreciate all the data you are collecting about combat, but you might want to take more time to think about the tests you are running.
My data was based on tests against other players (my alt and some friends) where I knew all the accruacy and defense mods as well as the stats of the weapons and took into account the 30% damage reduction for PvP. In all tests I was able to predict the damage done for the base attack (ie. ranged shot, etc) to within about +/- 10 damage, also CL levels didn't matter in PvP.
Now it MAY work different for PvE and the level difference is definitely having an effect on damage as well as the unknown factors of defense and armor stats against certain damage types (not even sure there are any). With Pve there are just too many unknown variables to come to a conclusion but for PvP my formula definitely works and SHOULD be somewhat close to what happnes in PvE for BASE damage.
raider7734
Sun May 22, 2005 2:18 am
#37
Vade_WS wrote:
It really shouldn't be surprising that the devs aren't telling us everything about the combat system. There is a lot we don't know.
Now, please don't take the following the wrong way, but have you tried to make sure your tests are unbiased? There are a number of implicit assumptions in your tests that might reinforce your conclusion. Have you tried to come up with scenarios that would test for min damage? I've noticed that you haven't stated your character's stats. Your speed, defense, and accuracy mods all matter. I'm assuming that since you aren't dying when attacking a CL81 creature then you are CL80. Perhaps min matters more for a weaker character? Have you tested that?
Yathat is true, the devs don't spell out how their systems work (or don't work), it's left to us to gather data & sort it out.
As for the test I did, I thought it was pretty decent. One of the carbines had a Max damage double its Min, another was triple... big difference there!if actual damage output was based on Mindamage in any fashion, here is where it should show up.But no, once again Minis AWOL. Well not AWOL... the number is there, being figured into 'Estimated Base DPS' for our shopping convenience, but having no effect when it comes to, you know,actually damaging stuff.
I'm done testing this one..it's clear that Max damage is doing the work, whether you're shooting a lair or a CL 81 mob.If someone finds out that Min damage starts making a difference when you shoot a jedi knight20 levels above you, wearing an exotic leotard and abackpack full of prenerf melons, great... I'll make a note of it =)
Pepto_kof
Sun May 22, 2005 3:02 am
#38
i really think this is funny. DPS, I used to put dps on my old weapons. ((min+max)/2)/speed = dps
in the old system attack speed was the weapon speed, no timer on attacks. seems all they did for the CU was make everyones health the same and slow attacks down.
using this old methond from august of 2003 when i became a master smith I used to compair it to the other master smith prices and price a weapon accordingly to dps of mine and thiers.
It worked very well and i tried to get more smiths to go along with my idea. i might have some old guns with my old dps stats on them. wonder how well they converted lol.
ObiQuixote
Sun May 22, 2005 12:56 pm
#39
Damage appears to be:
max weapon damage * special multiplier * accuracy reduction modifier * Level difference reduction multiplier.
I’m not entirely sure how the accuracy and CL reduction multipliers work, but as far as I can tell they cap at 1 (no change in damage) and they only work to reduce your base damage (max damage * special multiplier) In the case of the CL reduction it is always 1 if the mob is a lower CL then you.
I tested with two weapons and two specials, ranged shot and the master head shot. With my rifle against a mob with a lower cl then me and an accuracy of 274 it looks like both my reductions are 1 and my damage is just max damage * special multiplier.
So with my 1185 damage rifle and 274 accuracy I get
1185 damage with ranged shot, exactly 1 times my max damage
2133 with head shot exactly 1.8 times my max damage
Then using my 778dam pistol with 217 accuracy I get
741 damage with range shot which is .952 my max damage
1334 damage with headshot which is 1.71 my max damage
So I respec some skills and up my accuracy while holding a pistol to 257 and I get
772 damage with range shot which is .992 my max damage
1389 damage with headshot which is 1.78 my max damage
It looks like the only important numbers for damage are a weapons max damage, your accuracy and the CL difference .
max weapon damage * special multiplier * accuracy reduction modifier * Level difference reduction multiplier.
I’m not entirely sure how the accuracy and CL reduction multipliers work, but as far as I can tell they cap at 1 (no change in damage) and they only work to reduce your base damage (max damage * special multiplier) In the case of the CL reduction it is always 1 if the mob is a lower CL then you.
I tested with two weapons and two specials, ranged shot and the master head shot. With my rifle against a mob with a lower cl then me and an accuracy of 274 it looks like both my reductions are 1 and my damage is just max damage * special multiplier.
So with my 1185 damage rifle and 274 accuracy I get
1185 damage with ranged shot, exactly 1 times my max damage
2133 with head shot exactly 1.8 times my max damage
Then using my 778dam pistol with 217 accuracy I get
741 damage with range shot which is .952 my max damage
1334 damage with headshot which is 1.71 my max damage
So I respec some skills and up my accuracy while holding a pistol to 257 and I get
772 damage with range shot which is .992 my max damage
1389 damage with headshot which is 1.78 my max damage
It looks like the only important numbers for damage are a weapons max damage, your accuracy and the CL difference .
Message Edited by ObiQuixote on 05-22-2005 12:58 AM