Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Well after a lot of testing. Base DPS means nothing. Read inside.
Mcgreag
Tue May 17, 2005 3:57 am
#14
Terv wrote:I've noticed DPS is my least concern anyways. I look at (Max Dmg/attack cost/accuracy) more than anything. My mod speed on all my melee weapons is 1.6 or less. Only thing I notice is the action... usage. I have a few (base) 320-332 dps PH's that are pre-CU and have decent dmg 1098-1102 but have 0 accuracy and 104 attack cost. Tried them a few times and was forced to push them to retired wall decore. I use my 298 (base)DPS hammer now mainly due to the 1111 max dmg and accuracy bonus of 4 and 110 attack cost. I could have made the dps higher by experimenting on dmg and speed more. But I poured 4 points into eff and 2 in weight/acc.Anyone know what foods/drinks are good for action regen %'s?Also anyone able to cap out on dmg for a PH yet?Acctually is there a list of capped out stats for each weapon avail anywhere?-T-
Stack a Pixe, Booster Blue and Giggledust for +60% action regen (and +40% health, -10% mind regen).
AldaronTavish
Tue May 17, 2005 8:54 am
#15
Jaspor wrote:
Ipseck wrote:
I tested my dl44xt w/o skillmod clothes on autoattacking (ranged hit) a picket. It did 668 damage each hit, 8 attacks in 17 seconds.I tested my dl44xt w/ skillmod clothes (+13 speed +25 accuracy) on an identical mob and dealt 772 damage each hit, 8 attacks in 14 seconds. That shows you that speed mods work, that speed below 2.0 works and that accuracy can be a huge factor.
See, now this is a good argument - actual numeric results!
Very interesting that +25 accuracy did a little over 100 more damage per shot... You dealt 800 more damage in 3 less seconds. That's pretty significant if you ask me!
Hmmmmm if those numbers are correct then my tests on damage per hit are a bit more off than I thought.
From tests I got ((min + max)/2) + (accuracy - defense)
From those numbers above the accuracy - defense is not a straight 1 to 1 ratio, though in my tests against friends I was able to predict to within 10 points of damage how much I would do with ranged shot. (PvP multiply each () by .7)
Terv
Tue May 17, 2005 12:47 pm
#16
I've noticed DPS is my least concern anyways. I look at (Max Dmg/attack cost/accuracy) more than anything. My mod speed on all my melee weapons is 1.6 or less. Only thing I notice is the action... usage. I have a few (base) 320-332 dps PH's that are pre-CU and have decent dmg 1098-1102 but have 0 accuracy and 104 attack cost. Triedthem a few times and was forced to push themto retired wall decore. I use my 298 (base)DPS hammer now mainly due to the 1111 max dmg and accuracy bonus of4 and 110 attack cost. I could have made the dps higher by experimenting on dmg and speed more. But I poured 4 points into eff and 2 in weight/acc.
Anyone know what foods/drinks are good for action regen %'s?
Also anyone able tocap out on dmg for a PH yet?
Acctually is there a list of capped out stats for each weapon avail anywhere?
-T-
Ipseck
Tue May 17, 2005 2:10 pm
#17
no it wouldn't, cuz then you'd actually be backing up your argument instead of just making claims. If you don't care enough to post the hard facts why should we think that you'd care enough to 'educate' us about how the system really works?
Siymon
Tue May 17, 2005 3:28 pm
#18
While I agree that he hasn't offered any proof it might be something that we all might want to take a look at.
Muzz
Tue May 17, 2005 4:30 pm
#19
I have a 'proof' that the Earth is flat.
But i'm not going to post it because all the other evidence suggests otherwise.
Message Edited by Muzz on 05-18-2005 12:31 AM
grifta
Wed May 18, 2005 12:21 am
#20
I can sit here and give you detail information on the weapons I used, and the skills I used. Then with +25 accuracy and +25 speed and without. On each weapon used. But that is the same as me telling you what I originally said. If you do not feel like testing it yourself you will never know 100%. I took the time and I found out I am wasting points into speed because a 2.5 speed rifle still hit every second with alternating skills. So why not just maxdamage and not worry on speed on the weapon. I still experiment to speed then SAC and 1 point into damage on the components since it seems that if you dont experiment to damage on components they dont increase damage per point experimented on the weapon as much. But do your own testing.
Message Edited by grifta on 05-18-2005 05:54 PM
Ipseck
Wed May 18, 2005 7:10 am
#21
Siymon wrote:
While I agree that he hasn't offered any proof it might be something that we all might want to take a look at.
oh I agree.. Thats why I did look at it, and found it to be wrong.
One thing alot of people forget to take into account when comparing DPS is accuracy. Accuracy directly affects how much damage you do. It does no good comparing how much damage you do while alternating specials compared to someone else alternating specials. There are just too many human-controlled variables in that scenario. If you want to compare notes, either use one person, or 2 with the identical template (same speed, accuracy etc etc. Everything should be the same) set ranged attack or melee strike as your auto-attack, and then test against the exact same mob over a decent period of time. You won't notice things like minute speed differences when your sample size is 5 attacks.
I'm sorry I jumped down this guys throat, but mis-information and sanitized information really piss me off, especially from people who don't care enough to thoroughly test out their theories. Instead of cominig here with theories, come here with the data and let people make up their own minds about the system. It reaks too much of how politicians and the media treat the public and it hits a nerve with me. I appologize.
Message Edited by Ipseck on 05-18-2005 09:16 AM
SpunkyKuma
Wed May 18, 2005 10:57 am
#22
Most of my weapons I've made lately are around 290-320+ base DPS, and even with a speed PUP, they all eem to have the same attack time of roughly 2 seconds. Seems my 1.3 mod speed 444-942 dmg Scatter still outdamages a speed puped 0.98 mod speed 393-906 FWG5.
I still like damage over DPS, and I try to make most weapons below 2.0 speed.
I still like damage over DPS, and I try to make most weapons below 2.0 speed.
Vicci A'Tivo - Elder "in your face" Bounty Hunter
DOK_D
Wed May 18, 2005 12:12 pm
#23
Toon is CL80 master brawler, TKM, master swordsman, pikeman 4/4/0/0, combat prowess 0/0/4/4, enhanced reflexes 0/4/0/0
Weapon PH my spd: 1.63 dam:490-1072 wnd: 11.72% my DPS:478.36 sec
Armor: Padded(fullset)with 5104 across the board and my enc: 0
Looking at my combat logs everything hits faster than I do. Depending on the creature and its CL it varies from 2:1 up to 5:1. If I can hit it with a knockdown I'll get a few extra hits in. Dizzy/knockdown doesn't work PvE but does PvP.
The last battle I had was a crazed geo guard CL79 (not in geo caves). Something Iwould think I should b able to take one on one.
With the weapon above I tried a variety of hits available with the template: lowest damage when I hit it 278pts highest 778pts(improved power attack)
outta 32 swings 31 hits 20 for 278pts.
Geo: outta 76 swings 65 hits with an average of 76pts(59-92pts per hit)
My total damage was aprox 9,395pts
Geo's aprox 4,940.
So I did a little less than dbl damage right, well that would b ok if my Health wasn't 3100(base) to Geo's 17,000+
So I get incapped and run a little away to try and recoup a little. His health is regaining more then triple the speed of mine (noticed this with most creatures)
Maybe I'm not understanding how damage is done now within the CU but how is it that most of my hits did damage below my min. damage range or DPS??
How is it that everything hits faster than I do? I understand about recharging specials/hits but even doing just a melee hit the best I get is 2:1.
How about healing rates?? Even in a meditative trance and using stim-d's most things heal faster than I do.
I know part of this post is how often the attacks go but I've just been comparing how often i hit vs what I'm fighting and how much damage I'm doing compared to it. There are some numbers and something just doesn't seem right to me.
Terv
Thu May 19, 2005 1:35 am
#24
DOK_D wrote:
Toon is CL80 master brawler, TKM, master swordsman, pikeman 4/4/0/0, combat prowess 0/0/4/4, enhanced reflexes 0/4/0/0
Weapon PH my spd: 1.63 dam:490-1072 wnd: 11.72% my DPS:478.36 sec
Armor: Padded(fullset)with 5104 across the board and my enc: 0
Looking at my combat logs everything hits faster than I do. Depending on the creature and its CL it varies from 2:1 up to 5:1. If I can hit it with a knockdown I'll get a few extra hits in. Dizzy/knockdown doesn't work PvE but does PvP.
The last battle I had was a crazed geo guard CL79 (not in geo caves). Something Iwould think I should b able to take one on one.
With the weapon above I tried a variety of hits available with the template: lowest damage when I hit it 278pts highest 778pts(improved power attack)
outta 32 swings 31 hits 20 for 278pts.
Geo: outta 76 swings 65 hits with an average of 76pts(59-92pts per hit)
My total damage was aprox 9,395pts
Geo's aprox 4,940.
So I did a little less than dbl damage right, well that would b ok if my Health wasn't 3100(base) to Geo's 17,000+
So I get incapped and run a little away to try and recoup a little. His health is regaining more then triple the speed of mine (noticed this with most creatures)
Maybe I'm not understanding how damage is done now within the CU but how is it that most of my hits did damage below my min. damage range or DPS??
How is it that everything hits faster than I do? I understand about recharging specials/hits but even doing just a melee hit the best I get is 2:1.
How about healing rates?? Even in a meditative trance and using stim-d's most things heal faster than I do.
I know part of this post is how often the attacks go but I've just been comparing how often i hit vs what I'm fighting and how much damage I'm doing compared to it. There are some numbers and something just doesn't seem right to me.
Now that action is not as much of a problem(well compared to before I knew to stack all the spices...lol)
I just use Improved head hit as my auto attack, and then while I wait for it to come back I use either critical hit or the melee hit ya get from master brawler.
Might also want ot work on your template a bit maybe some more speed or def.
After going to the geo caves and having 5 of them attack at once, and no ill effects.
I think simply changing your attacks will help.
One on 1 a good move is armor break, then knock em down and use your most powerful hits while they are kd.
The stats on my hammers are along the same lines as yours.
And for the DPS debate... I'm still for the Max dmg and action cost over DPS by FAR!!!
AldaronTavish
Thu May 19, 2005 8:54 am
#25
Max damage isn't the only stat you should be looking at. The best weapons will be those with both a high min and high max with as little difference between them as possible.
For example a 100-1000 is far worse than a 500-1000.
(100+1000)/2 = 550 per hit with base attack
(500+1000)/2 = 750
The higher the max damage gets from the min you don't get all that great increase in damage. If a 150 krayt tissue is used, effectively it is a 75 krayt tissue as that is all the damage it will add per hit. using the 100-1000 example and using the 150 krayt all you get is 625 per hit instead of the 550.
Also as my post further up states, accuracy - defense either adds or subtracts from the damage depending on which is higher.
For example a 100-1000 is far worse than a 500-1000.
(100+1000)/2 = 550 per hit with base attack
(500+1000)/2 = 750
The higher the max damage gets from the min you don't get all that great increase in damage. If a 150 krayt tissue is used, effectively it is a 75 krayt tissue as that is all the damage it will add per hit. using the 100-1000 example and using the 150 krayt all you get is 625 per hit instead of the 550.
Also as my post further up states, accuracy - defense either adds or subtracts from the damage depending on which is higher.
bmf5000
Thu May 19, 2005 9:47 am
#26
You need to consider where to place your experiment for the best overall results. If you cap damage, from what Ive seen, you lose out and do NOT end up with a better gun. The problem is, experimentation is graduated based on how close to the cap you get. Your first experiment may increase the damage by 20 points, but do it 3 more times and that number goes down more and more. Use Krayt Tissues and you have a weapon that is allready close to max damage, so experimenting for 1-3 points of damage instead of better speed or SAC is wastefull and in the end you will not end up with a better weapon.
DPS is an estamted stat based on the combination of speed and damage to determine the average output of damage that weapon can do. If the stat didnt mean anything, A) they wouldnt put in there, and B) That 617 modified DPS HC scatter pistol my guildmate bought, would not outdamage the 568 modified dps HC scatter that I crafted earlier for him.
Better damage give you better DPS, but the only real effective way to increase the damage on any given gun, is to use the enhancements (krayt or gorax). Experimenting on damage does not lead to better results. I tried it.