Weaponsmith Archive

Ok then what is the max that you can get accuracy up to on a weapon? Maybe you guys can test a maxed out weapon for accuracy VS one having 0 accuracy or low accuracy? Maybe therein lies the anwer to the question. I think this warrants investigation.

It seems to me that speed does matter thenright? Because when you add your modified clothing/tapes/skill bonusesto the mix it will change the modified DPS. In that case, is that not the number you should look at when you are hitting mobs? What are the differences in damage when checking time stamps for this? Again this would lend that accuracy would have an impact. Additionally, has anyone tried aim to add to the accuracy bonus and crunched some numbers this way. You may not hit as often, but those hits may just count a heck of a lot more.

When it comes to customers though, shouldn't the number they look at be their modified DPS? How does this work when looking at vendors? Does that change aseach customer looks at weapons on the vendor? I noticed that the modified DPS for my WS certainly was not the same as my commando/TKM/smuggler.

There is a lot of good combat information being posted in this thread.

Basically the complaint is that base DPS is not an accurate reflection of the damage done in combat, which is a fair critisism. On the other hand, it never will be truly accurate since the NPC stats will affect damage dealt.

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raider7734 wrote:

Alright...if shooting a lair isn't a good test, since it has no defense,how about CL 81 malklocs?

My question is, where does base damage come from? (Min+Max)/2? Min? Max? Neither?

Weapon A

E11 Mk2 carbine, 428-885, Accuracy 9, Energy damage

Weapon B

Laser carbine, 295-590, Accuracy 0, Energy damage

Weapon C

E11 Mk2 carbine, 263-771, Accuracy 0, Energy damage

I recorded which weapon was used, Min damage, Max damage, the average, how much Ranged shot hit for, and how much damage was absorbed by the creature's armorout of how much possible damage.

Calculated values, are the ratio of Max/Min damage for each weapon, the % resist of the creature's armor,and the following ratios: Damage / Min, Damage / Max, Damage / Average.

The three weapons have different Max/Min ratios, especially comparingB to C (2.0vs. 2.93)...so there's enough variation here that we should be able to see what actual damage is proportional to:

RangedRangedRanged Ranged

Shot ShotShot Shot

WeaponMinMaxAvgMax/Min DamageAbsorbed Possible Armor% Dam / MinDam / MaxDam / Avg

A428885656.52.067757 446392 839 46.722288 1.0420561 0.5039548 0.6793602

B295590442.52.0 298261 560 46.607143 1.0101695 0.5050847 0.6734463

C2637715172.9315589 383336 72046.666667 1.4562738 0.4967575 0.7408124

Theratio that stays nearly constant on these three tests is Ranged Shot Damage / Max Damage.

Therefore,actual damage output ismost closely proportional to the MAX DAMAGE of the weapon...not Min, and not (Min+Max)/2

While'Estimated Base DPS' might be a reasonably-well working rule of thumb for comparing weapons, it's somewhat flawed for including Minimum damage, which appears to have noeffect. A better measure of the basicdamage vs. delay characteristics of a weapon would besimply Max damage / Speed.

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GhostInAShell wrote:

I can't speak for all combat professions, but for double-elite pistols I'd definately say that DPS is highly unreliable. The reason being that there does seem to be a hard cap on speed, but the weapons don't accurately reflect this in their modified stats. You can spam attacks all day, and your modified weapon speed might say .68, but you are NOT going to be hitting that fast, even with ranged shot. I'm not certain exactly what the speed cap is, as I haven't used the time-stamp method, but I've definately noticed that beyond a certain point I don't get any more attacks in per enemy attack.

Perhaps DPS matters in theory, but in practice it's very much broken because it only calculates for the speed that the weapon states, modified and unmodified, and not the hard speed built in to the mechanics of combat. Other professions might have a different experience with this, as it's harder for them to get below this hard cap, but Pistoleers are being totally misled by the Modified DPS of the weapon. For us, SAC is WAY more important, because once we hit the hard speed cap it's all about the amount of specials we can pour into our blitz.

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there is no hard speed cap - its a diminishing returns formula - meaning the more you get, the less you'll notice the change. Take a look at one of my first posts - 1.86 speed pistol mbh/msmugg template (1.3 modified speed w/o skillmod clothes/1.1 speed w/ skill mod clothes). There was a real difference in how often I was attacking, but it didn't become evident till analyzing samples of around 10 or more.

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Ipseck wrote:

There's one integral part of the equation you're completely ignoring there - accuracy.

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Wow this is a great read for the weaponsmith!!!

But I am still a bit confused on whether I should be concentrating on Max Dmg and Speed/Acc or just keep looking at the DPS. I play on the Flurry server and most of the auctions on our server and people buying weapons are now mainly concerned with DPS. To be quite honest the whole DPS thing has effected my weapons sales a great deal even though the majority of my weapons have excellent dmg/speed/and accuracy. People seem to lean toward buying a weapon that has 345 Base DPS vs a weapon with 315 Base DPS with higher Max Dmg. So what should I be focusing on Max Dmg/Speed and Acc. or DPS?

Ballzonya
Flurry's 12pt Weaponsmith/12pt Artisan/Master Merchant/Novice Armorsmith/Novice Pistoleer

Just a wild theory without any real testing, but is it possible that acurracy vs defense plays into where in the min to max damage range you're going to fall when you attack?

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raider7734 wrote:

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Ipseck wrote:

There's one integral part of the equation you're completely ignoring there - accuracy.

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Yups, I haven't looked at accuracy at all so far. I have identified some things that do not affect damage output, and one thing that strongly does... this is useful information that advances our knowlege of how things work in the CU.

Do you have any test data to contribute regarding the effects of accuracy?

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Here's one post from a while ago that talked about accuracy:
Accuracy Modifiers effect Damage

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GFunkFlesh wrote:
Wow this is a great read for the weaponsmith!!!

But I am still a bit confused on whether I should be concentrating on Max Dmg and Speed/Acc or just keep looking at the DPS. I play on the Flurry server and most of the auctions on our server and people buying weapons are now mainly concerned with DPS. To be quite honest the whole DPS thing has effected my weapons sales a great deal even though the majority of my weapons have excellent dmg/speed/and accuracy. People seem to lean toward buying a weapon that has 345 Base DPS vs a weapon with 315 Base DPS with higher Max Dmg. So what should I be focusing on Max Dmg/Speed and Acc. or DPS?

Ballzonya
Flurry's 12pt Weaponsmith/12pt Artisan/Master Merchant/Novice Armorsmith/Novice Pistoleer

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Right now, I think a lot of people are confused as to what DPS really means, or is used for. This is the problem with aggregate stats such as DPS.

Part of the problem is that people expect DPS to be more useful than it really is. However, you can make a 300dps weapon in a lot of different ways. None of those weapons should be considered equivalent, and will be useful to different people. Masters may prefer high damage before speed, while others might prefer speed before damage. And some care about SAC, which does not affect DPS.

What this all means is that you aren't going to build a weapon that satisfies everyone, even if the DPS "looks" good. Use DPS as an evaluation guide for building your weapons and let the people that really are particular get their weapons custom made.

Modified DPS is just like DPS average damage but divided by your modified speed

Message Edited by Ipseck on 05-23-2005 04:17 PM

Don't forget that elemental damage is broken. DPS on higher end RotW loot is SEVERELY affected by that. Just highlighting how DPS is a poor indication of the true quality of a weapon.