Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Proof that the players DO NOT know what they want
sabacc1000 wrote:
Gnosis wrote:
All the flaming rabid whiners who freaked out on these boards because of rumors and heresay are a bunch of mindless sheep.
LOL, there I said what every skilled smith is thinking today.
I have yet to make a weapons today that isnt better than what I made yesterday. Finally a way to distinguish the skilled veteren WS's from the masses of macroing holo-smiths.
As Raph Koster once said, "The players don't know what they want." He is proven right yet again.
Did you even read the complaints before the patch?
Nowhere in there did anyone say that >10pt masters would be making worse items. We all knew that many weapons would actually be slightly improved in damage / speed, but ONLY if you have skill tapes. Try experimenting with just 10pts and see what kind of a difference those last points make. This means that the masters with skill tapes will absolutely dominate the market.Not only would new masters have to grind, then gather resources, but now they have to have the skill tapes too if they ever want to sell anything. Except the price for those tapes would inflate even more, so it's unlikely that a new master (read as: dirt poor and unable to make anything worthwhile)would ever be able to compete.
The "mindlesssheep" were not acting on heresay, we were acting directly on feedback from TC. Just because you can get a few more points dmg on your weapons doesn't make the change good for the game, especially long term.
The results from today have proven exactly what we were complaining about. Masters with tapes, and the bestnon-gated resources= slightly better; everyone else = very noticeably lacking. That's bad for the economy, as it encourages inflation and monopolies (or at least very limited competition).
The richest get richer, and everyone else can forget about ever being competitive in crafting. How exactly is that better?
If you want to be the best you have to "pay" to be the best. That is why I took months of earnings to buy the skill tapes. I didn't raise prices to do it. I used my earnings to do it. If a up and comming WS can't afford the tapes. he better start crafting more weapons and sell them on the Bazar or start doing some missions or what ever he needs to do to be competitive.
Mogro wrote:
JavaKodar wrote:
Well let's see here. Gnosis just made a 416 damage T21 on Wanderhome when the previous high was 404.
I think the majority of players would prefer 416 damage over 404, don't you?
Yes yes, but think bigger...
How will this affect the economy? Up-and-coming WSs that can't afford multi-million credit tapes. How will this affect monopolies (which this "fix" was supposed to address)?
forceone27 wrote:
Why shouldn't I have an advantage after gathering my own resources for 8 months and spending roughly 40 million of my hard earned money to get tapes?
You have an advantage. The advantage is just not drastic enough to grant you a monopoly, but only an easier time crafting and experimenting on weapons.
A better question would be: Why should I, as a Master Weaponsmith, with resources just as good as everyone else, be completely unable to sell any weapons because mine are significantly lower-class compared to those with skill-tapes? How will I ever be able to make better weapons if I cannot afford skill tapes because no one will purchase my weapons -- they are all being bought from those with skill-tapes?
Logix wrote:
forceone27 wrote:
Why shouldn't I have an advantage after gathering my own resources for 8 months and spending roughly 40 million of my hard earned money to get tapes?
You have an advantage. The advantage is just not drastic enough to grant you a monopoly, but only an easier time crafting and experimenting on weapons.
A better question would be: Why should I, as a Master Weaponsmith, with resources just as good as everyone else, be completely unable to sell any weapons because mine are significantly lower-class compared to those with skill-tapes? How will I ever be able to make better weapons if I cannot afford skill tapes because no one will purchase my weapons -- they are all being bought from those with skill-tapes?
I don't know, sell them cheaper maybe? The alternative is that someone like me who has collected skill tapes for months and finally has enough to get +20 will have no advantage over someone who hasn't gone to the trouble of getting tapes. How is that better? And the idea that you won't sell ANY weapons is pretty ridiculous if they are just a few points difference. As far as new WS's having to struggle, you're damn right. Should a new master weaponsmith be able to compete with somone that's been master for 8 months? No. If you think that's not fair too bad, that's reality.
I remember when I was starting and I saw one of Cubone's FWG5's. I was like, OMG, how am I ever going to sell anything when he's making stuff that good. I made it just fine, and so would other people if they would spend more time working at it and less time whining on the forums about it.
JavaKodar wrote:
The economy is already broken. We know this, the developers know this.
From what I've seen, the patch didn't help. Players went to the 12-point smiths before, they'll still go to the 12-point smiths. I don't think anything will change that, and I don't see how changing experimentation will fix an already broken economy. The developers saw it differently.
Weapons got better because they are more resource-dependent as they should have been all along. Those weaponsmiths with the better resources can make better weapons, and now, even the small differences cause a change. Those with skill tapes paid well for them and should be able to make better weapons, just as a combatant with a skill tape is better in combat. Crafting should be no different.
Pre-patch 12-point smiths: That's nonsense. Having 12 points means you have an extra hundred condition on your weapons. Most customersdon't even notice who has12-points by guns alone,because the damage is always the same across the board. If you're custom-crafting looted weapons, then yeah, you'll probably get more customers with 12-points. But the vast majority of Weaponsmiths base their business off of running factories and loading vendors -- not hand-crafting loot for customers. So this still granted you an advantage, just not a monopoly.
With this patch, there will be a huge difference, because smiths with 12 points are going to have anywhere up to 20 points more damage on their weapons. You simply can't compete with that.
The patch changed nothing about resource-dependency. You have bad resources, you will make bad guns. Weaponsmiths know the second they try to sell weapons: Top-of-the-line resources are a #1 priority. Nothing changed here; the dependency is as high as it could ever be. The thing that changed was skill-tape dependency. Skill tapes make the gun now, not resources.
I agree that someone who spent 20-30 million on skill tapes should have an advantage, and with the old system they do have an advantage. But with the new system their advantage would be overwhelming. I have been collecting resources for 6-7 months, so my resource collection is very good. But I'm a small volume smith specializing in pistols and melee weapons. I've got a few million credits in sales racked up, but not nearly enough to drop 20-30 million on tapes (actually, with these changes they would go for a lot more now). If I'm reduced to selling weapons on the bazaar and doing missions to get the money to buy tapes, I'll never be able to catch up (nor would about 75% of the crafters out there who don't already have the tapes).
From here on out, I think anyone who supports these changes should also say whether they are 10, 11 or 12 point smiths. That way the rest of us can get a little insight into their possible motivations for supporting the new system.....
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
You can't make a profit. We know that from Tech IV vs Master Weaponsmiths. You cannot sell guns at Tech IV because that two-point experimentation gap is so huge. Mission payouts are good enough that players do not need to budget-shop for weapons, they haven't had to do that for months and months. The same thing will apply to 10 points versus 12 points, but even moreso, considering the wider variety of specific resources that must be acquired. It will simply accumulate a huge deficit that the smith will not be able to climb out of.
forceone27 wrote:
I don't know, sell them cheaper maybe?
EdOWar wrote:
I agree that someone who spent 20-30 million on skill tapes should have an advantage, and with the old system they do have an advantage. But with the new system their advantage would be overwhelming. I have been collecting resources for 6-7 months, so my resource collection is very good. But I'm a small volume smith specializing in pistols and melee weapons. I've got a few million credits in sales racked up, but not nearly enough to drop 20-30 million on tapes (actually, with these changes they would go for a lot more now). If I'm reduced to selling weapons on the bazaar and doing missions to get the money to buy tapes, I'll never be able to catch up (nor would about 75% of the crafters out there who don't already have the tapes).
From here on out, I think anyone who supports these changes should also say whether they are 10, 11 or 12 point smiths. That way the rest of us can get a little insight into their possible motivations for supporting the new system.....
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Maybe the real problem here isn't the WS's with tapes, maybe it's the prices of the tapes. I payed like 23 million for a +11 tape. The most money I ever had was 50 million, and that was after months of selling LOTS of guns, and I mean LOTS. Most people probably can't afford that, unless they were credit dupers or something. So the real problem is the economy...and this patch was supposed to fix the economy...go figure.
BTW I have the tapes to be a +12 WS but I no longer have any WS skills period.
Yeah well blame the Weaponsmith correspondant for being one of the ones rubbishing this and turning a whole load of people who didnt have a clue into black mailing the Devs into dropping these changes at the last minute.
I for one am loving the changes and I am calling for a new Weaponsmith corespondant and one who knows what he is talking about because he completely screwed us over by falsely predicting doom and gloom.
This is the same as in beta, the vocal minority have ruined something good for the silent majority, these changes were designed for the longevity of a good crafting system and lazy players who are scared of change have selfishly let us all down.
/hopes the changes stay in.
Tell you what, lets have a quest with 2*10point tapes as the reward, then i'll happily stick with the changes. You wont mind that will you?
BruSwillis wrote:
Yeah well blame the Weaponsmith correspondant for being one of the ones rubbishing this and turning a whole load of people who didnt have a clue into black mailing the Devs into dropping these changes at the last minute.
I for one am loving the changes and I am calling for a new Weaponsmith corespondant and one who knows what he is talking about because he completely screwed us over by falsely predicting doom and gloom.
This is the same as in beta, the vocal minority have ruined something good for the silent majority, these changes were designed for the longevity of a good crafting system and lazy players who are scared of change have selfishly let us all down.
/hopes the changes stay in.
JavaKodar wrote:
The economy is already broken. We know this, the developers know this.
From what I've seen, the patch didn't help. Players went to the 12-point smiths before, they'll still go to the 12-point smiths. I don't think anything will change that, and I don't see how changing experimentation will fix an already broken economy. The developers saw it differently.
Weapons got better because they are more resource-dependent as they should have been all along. Those weaponsmiths with the better resources can make better weapons, and now, even the small differences cause a change. Those with skill tapes paid well for them and should be able to make better weapons, just as a combatant with a skill tape is better in combat. Crafting should be no different.
Weaponsmiths who have been in the business for 6 months should have an advantage over the new weaponsmiths. These changes merely make that advantage a bit more obvious. Perhaps a bit too obvious, but now the differences are very noticeable.
I've been a master weaponsmith as long as anyone in this game. I take alot of pride in my crafting and my shop. I spend as much time harvesting resources than anyone else does im sure. and i dislike the changes. In the new crafting system using the same matierials ive always used my weapons are slower and do less damage. Im a 10 point smith by choice because its never mattered before and there was no reason to think 9months into the game it would change for weaponsmiths. Seeing the results from this test I can see that easily hologrinders that are doing weaponsmith would have an advantage over someone like myself that has taken so much time and effort into his craft simply because they are more likely to have tapes than me as i've always been a weaponsmith and nothing else.
I have plenty of credits being the first or second master on my server so i can afford to go out and get them if this test stays live in game. But i know alot of good smiths that have been around long enough and work hard that would not have the resources to do it as they are casual games and not a power gamer like me. It would not be fair to them to make having skill tapes a requirement to being a smith. This is a game and it should be fun for everyone not just power gamers like myself.