Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Rifle SAC DOES NOT need to be below 95!!!
Maceey
Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:52 am
#14
Don't forget that rifle specials are slow and thats also why you don't run out of action that fast. Now for a pistoleer he will run out of action very fast compared to a rifleman. I neverexperiment all the way to the cap for rifles i tend to stay around90-95 with loot made ones. Just because they are slow weapons with slow specials.
Shimond
Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:43 am
#15
I disagree, you want the lowest SAC possible if you plan on doing the most damage over time.
You're not counting in food, spice, doc enhances, and SEAs. All of which make a good fighter...better. And will flip the speed/action ratio the other way where your high damage specials will outperform the base attacks.
Those base attacks are great if it's just you and your gun, but if you have the best preparation and equipment on hand you're going to want to use the better specials. And every little bit of SAC helps when it comes to using advanced specials.
You're not counting in food, spice, doc enhances, and SEAs. All of which make a good fighter...better. And will flip the speed/action ratio the other way where your high damage specials will outperform the base attacks.
Those base attacks are great if it's just you and your gun, but if you have the best preparation and equipment on hand you're going to want to use the better specials. And every little bit of SAC helps when it comes to using advanced specials.
Summerflame
Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:17 am
#16
donkeyP wrote:
Shimond wrote:
I disagree, you want the lowest SAC possible if you plan on doing the most damage over time.
You're not counting in food, spice, doc enhances, and SEAs. All of which make a good fighter...better. And will flip the speed/action ratio the other way where your high damage specials will outperform the base attacks.
Those base attacks are great if it's just you and your gun, but if you have the best preparation and equipment on hand you're going to want to use the better specials. And every little bit of SAC helps when it comes to using advanced specials.
I Agree.
I want the lowest SAC i can get on my weapons also and through use my customers love the low SAC compared to higer ones. This theory is great and was done well for rifles. But in reading it i realize taht this holds well for PVE combat but in a PVP environment you want to make every hit hurt your opponent as hard as you can to both put him on the defensive and froced to heal more than attack, and to obliterate his health before he gets your so that you can mov onto the next target.
If it was all a matter of how much damage you can do in a set period of time this would hold great, but most of the time in PVP it comes down to how many shots can you get off before they get you, and how much each of those shots counts for is often critical to winning the battle, and in using these more powerful attacks it does use alot more action per shot which is where the lower SAC comes in.
This is just my opinion on this and from talking to most of my guild they feel the same, just thought i would through it out there.
FYI it is realy not that hard to make the weapons at their SAC cap with little lost to max dmg.
I still think that Low SAC is also very imporant in longer PVE battles, Id very much like someone to do the same test with rifles as I did with carbines. If anyone is up for it Id be happy .)
Bermag
Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:54 am
#17
Let forget about sac and just look at damage dealing. I personally think it is a bad design that ranged/placed shot combo gives a higher dps than using high-end specials. Assuming there is no other factornot taken into account with your tests. Well there is one and that is wen you get a critical hit with critical shot. That would increase the dps.
Anyone have a link showing what the speed modifiers are for different specials?
Another question is if actual firing speed is only modified by modified weapon speed x special speed modifier or if there is also a fixed cool down timer? What I am thinkign of is trying to find the optimal speed on the weapon. If you can not fire next special faster because it is waiting for the cool down from last special and that is not a 1:1 relation with weapon speed then it is not useful to increase speed any further.
Actually we are talkning about possibly two timers (now I am making some guesses how it works, I find it pretty hard to see what is actually happening). One is execution speed and the other is cool down. We can't fire another shot (even if on different timers) before execution is finished for first shot. And we can not fire same special again until the cool down has finished from previous shot with that special (1. special 1- 2. special3. special 1; if cool down has not finished for special 1 we will not be able to fire special 1 again)
Mixing specials with different length on cool-down might lower dps. For example if you have ranged shot as your default attack and you do other shots with longer cool down timers you might have to wait after finishing ranged shot until you can fire the second special again because it have to wait for cool down for the second special (for example cycling ranged shot and critical shot)
Then we also have other options to look at, using damage pup instead of speed pup for example.
But one of the most important things you say is that speed really matters and that going with high speed will make ranged shot/placed shot a higher dps.
donkeyP
Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:51 am
#18
True, each attack has its own cooldown timer, and there is also a base delay between attacks that is based on the speed of the weapon and the skills of the rifleman. In fighting both PVE and PVP i have found that i can use my 3 main attacks back to back. I usually use crit shot first, then torso shot(Not too hot on dmg but adds a DOT), and then head shot. These are the 3 strongest attacks i have and in using them i find that by the time the third attack goes off my first attack is ready for me again. With this my only delay is the short cooldown timer associated with the gun. I think there might be a min cooldown timer for the weapon but i am completly sure what it is yet, but i am try to find out. With being able to throw attacks back to back like this the SAC is essential to doing so over a period of time.
Bermag wrote:
Let forget about sac and just look at damage dealing. I personally think it is a bad design that ranged/placed shot combo gives a higher dps than using high-end specials. Assuming there is no other factornot taken into account with your tests. Well there is one and that is wen you get a critical hit with critical shot. That would increase the dps.
Anyone have a link showing what the speed modifiers are for different specials?
Another question is if actual firing speed is only modified by modified weapon speed x special speed modifier or if there is also a fixed cool down timer? What I am thinkign of is trying to find the optimal speed on the weapon. If you can not fire next special faster because it is waiting for the cool down from last special and that is not a 1:1 relation with weapon speed then it is not useful to increase speed any further.
Actually we are talkning about possibly two timers (now I am making some guesses how it works, I find it pretty hard to see what is actually happening). One is execution speed and the other is cool down. We can't fire another shot (even if on different timers) before execution is finished for first shot. And we can not fire same special again until the cool down has finished from previous shot with that special (1. special 1- 2. special3. special 1; if cool down has not finished for special 1 we will not be able to fire special 1 again)
Mixing specials with different length on cool-down might lower dps. For example if you have ranged shot as your default attack and you do other shots with longer cool down timers you might have to wait after finishing ranged shot until you can fire the second special again because it have to wait for cool down for the second special (for example cycling ranged shot and critical shot)
Then we also have other options to look at, using damage pup instead of speed pup for example.
But one of the most important things you say is that speed really matters and that going with high speed will make ranged shot/placed shot a higher dps.
Shimond
Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:35 pm
#19
Minimum cooldown is 1 second.
You cannot shoot/strike faster than 1 second per attack (even tandem).
The problem with Ranged Shot and the other 'base' line abilities is they're close to that speed cap as is, which means you get little to no benefit from speed buffs and other speed mods. This is why higher tier specials are in the end better when you are fully prepared to use them.
Also note with the action cost (near nonexistant) that ranged shot has, it is better off to just tandem your two highest damage per shot specials then revert to ranged shot to regen your action for the next offload of higher damage specials, than to just 'waste action' by using those near-nil action cost low damage specials simply because you can keep firing them forever.
You cannot shoot/strike faster than 1 second per attack (even tandem).
The problem with Ranged Shot and the other 'base' line abilities is they're close to that speed cap as is, which means you get little to no benefit from speed buffs and other speed mods. This is why higher tier specials are in the end better when you are fully prepared to use them.
Also note with the action cost (near nonexistant) that ranged shot has, it is better off to just tandem your two highest damage per shot specials then revert to ranged shot to regen your action for the next offload of higher damage specials, than to just 'waste action' by using those near-nil action cost low damage specials simply because you can keep firing them forever.
Puttley
Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:34 am
#20
me yes, just using ranged & placed like this does so much damage/sec they're dead before they can realise i only hit for 700ish pts a shot! (pvp rating of 1500 to show for it too)
Bermag
Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:29 am
#21
Puttley, the average time shot for adv crit / imp headshot is 3.53 seconds not 3.44.
Interesting is however that 3.44 is 1.8 x mod speed + 1.9 x mod speed using your mod speed of 0.93 and the modfiers for damage multiplier as speed modifier. Maybe it was what you were testing and put that number instead.
Obi-Tu
Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:57 pm
#23
Puttley wrote:
done some tests (a second lot - some was done on the rifleman forums a while back and i wanted to check again).
THEORY:
Ranged & placed Shot back to back do more damage over time than Improved Headshot and Advanced Critical shot
TEST CONDITIONS:
both tests done with exact same weapon, mods, clothing, pups, foods....etc. only difference is the attacks used. attack queued ready for next shot before attack time comes - perfect timing. both tests done vs level 81 creature while kiting so no pauses for healing or being hit. i'm constantly running.
RESULTS:
Ranged & placed Shot
32 shots in 62 seconds
= 1.94 seconds per shot avarage
= 1134 damage per shot avarage (1080 ranged, 1188 placed)
DPS = 584.5
Imp. Headshot & Adv. Critical
17 shots in 60 seconds
= 3.53 seconds per shot avarage
= 1998 damage per shot avarage (1944 head, 2052 critical)
DPS = 566
as ranged/placed shot takes only about 5% action per shot (roughly 1% for ranged and 10% for placed) where critical/head take about 17% (critical 18, headshot 16%). it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there is almost NO USE to using high damage attacks over the very basic attacks. save the action for the high action draining shots like confuse, KD, etc. and use the toolbar slot currently used by Headshot or adv critical to store the extra food you may need instead.
in summary this puts an end to the 'uber' weapons being ones with caped low SAC! i spam ranged & placed shot doing more damage over time that high damage attacks that use a huge ammount of action and result in not having to use a SAC PUP. i can even use a 30% speed pup with a Adv. laser rifle with 99 SAC (the mod weapon speed then at 0.93) and not run out of action!
my advice is to tell customers to use the most basic ranged/melee attack for damage, save the action then for KD, dizzy type attacks when needed. make weapons (rilfes at least - im unfamilar withe the speeds of other proffesions) with 95-100 sac and put a speed PUP on it. if you get the mod speed down to about 1sec (master template, clothing, pups etc) you'll be doing 600-700 damage per sec with action only taking a small knock - if even moving. put your experimentation into speed and damage once you hit 95ish SAC
Message Edited by Puttley on 07-19-2005 01:41 PM
Message Edited by Puttley on 07-19-2005 01:44 PM
this may be great to know for pve but for pvp this is totally wrong imo
Puttley
Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:32 am
#24
cant see how.....completely....states now arn't worth the damage/action they take to place - or remove -20 defence? so what. bleeds tick for 70-140! can live with that. daze type attacks now cannot stack, you can use KD recover almost instantly after being knocked down and only get perhaps 2 shots hitting for an extra 20% damage. root - nice, unless the opposition uses a ranged weapon. now i may be lucky to have a very sweet rifle and a +10 range arm but by doing only range/placed i out damage EVERYONE i come across. i group grind for FS from dant mining outposet and come accross a very wide range of people (yes PVE but i get agro'd by every creature even ina group of full temp jedi). pvp, i've yet to find more than one or two people who can beat me 1v1 with no exploiting, and those two are my guildmates with similar templates, and similar strategies, weapons, armor - i made the armor, the weapons and came up with the template they now all use.
now i see no reason why using ranged/placed over advanced/head is different for pvp, the attacks work the same, NPCs have the same access to attacks as players do now, the calculations are teh same to work out damage (apart from NPCs have no melee/range defence). to beat someone in pvp you have to do more damage to the opposition than they can heal for, while they do the same to you. so doing more damage during the time of the fight is a good thing, using less action whilst doing that increased damage is a good thing - more action to use for KDs or root?
unless you can give me an explanation i fail to see how this doesn't work for pvp (will be hard as i'm stubborn and i've tried this in pvp and it works)
Puttley
Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:40 am
#25
just to add here are some numbers for action use:
Action regens @ 2.5%/sec
ranged/placed shot uses3%/shot@ 1.94sec/shot = 1.5%/sec
head/critical uses 17%/shot @ 3.53sec/shot = 4.8%/sec
Action regens @ 2.5%/sec
ranged/placed shot uses3%/shot@ 1.94sec/shot = 1.5%/sec
head/critical uses 17%/shot @ 3.53sec/shot = 4.8%/sec
Message Edited by Puttley on 07-20-2005 10:43 AM
Bermag
Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:49 am
#26
Puttley, when you used headshot/adv critical did you run out of action during that minute and that is the reason for the much lower number of shots?
I am going to do some correct tests but yesterday I checked combat logs (yes I know that log is not accurate) and my firing speed was 2-3 seconds (getting an average) according to log. And my mod speed is only around 1.4 (using sac red pup with a sac 82 rifle - can spam for ages).
BTW, anyone have a link to an article showing the speed modifiers for specials?