Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: The ADK Discussion
Second, I read the rest of your forums just fine, including this complete post. Like I said, the biggest problems that I see are people like me no longer using 4-5 different pistols or other weaponsdepending on the enemy resistances and armor ratings, combined with the fact that even if I decide I need a new weapon, I can complete a quest to receive a completed weapon as a reward that is as good as non-loot enhanced weapons.
We know that the other issues have a bigger impact but right now the adk is making it just so much much much worse.
sm1550 wrote:
First, I was responding to one person's continued postswho seems to think that every combat character has 5+ ADK's or something. Its simply an idiotic statement as I was pointing out using his own data.
Second, I read the rest of your forums just fine, including this complete post. Like I said, the biggest problems that I see are people like me no longer using 4-5 different pistols or other weaponsdepending on the enemy resistances and armor ratings, combined with the fact that even if I decide I need a new weapon, I can complete a quest to receive a completed weapon as a reward that is as good as non-loot enhanced weapons.
Ifyou'll take the time to actually think, the best solutions that would likely add additional work for WS's would be to reimplement the old resistances and armor (or a similar system) so there is motivation for combat characters to use multiple weapons. Also, rather than providing us with weapons we can use right away, give us a schematic or something that we will have to hire a WS to utilize. I'm not being greedy by wanting to keep my one ADK as-is, one per account, I'm trying to point out that there are other areas that are more detrimental while also pointing out the obvious fact that there are very few people with more than 1 ADK.
Maceey wrote:
We know that the other issues have a bigger impact but right now the adk is making it just so much much much worse.
Much much much? 
So you make ADKs biolink, or better yet, non-tradeable - all you've done is guarantee everybody who can get one (a relatively smaller number) keeps them. Now, instead of consolidating the ADKs with people who wouldn't buy your base weapons anyway now no one buys your base weapons, except perhaps maybe that first time.
If you're a crafter, or have a crafter alt (many people with jedi have combat alts - BH anyone?), and you sell your ADK for 20+mil (going rate on my server, for instance), I wonder how many weapons you'd have to sell to the guy who just bought your ADK enough to make 20mil off him. That's a lot of 20k scatters. You think you'd get 20mil from him, otherwise? That's one person who just spent more for his ADK than he would EVER spend on base weapons, and more than likely on elite weapons, for the entire time he plays this game. And ADKs hurt your pocketbook how again?
Message Edited by Dekka1 on 10-25-2005 12:26 PM
Dekka1 wrote:
Much much much?
Maceey wrote:
We know that the other issues have a bigger impact but right now the adk is making it just so much much much worse.
............... go flame somebody else we know what you think and what you want but is that reply really needed?
You're the one flaming. And we all know how you feel, is THAT reply needed?
Maceey wrote:
............... go flame somebody else we know what you think and what you want but is that reply really needed?
Imaridril wrote:
As both a weaponsmith and a combat player, I say that there's no reason to change the ADK at all. Even if all ADKs were removed completely from the game, weaponsmith would still have MAJOR issues. The following are all issues that I think impact theweapon market MUCH MORE than ADKS...
1. No Variation Between Weapons - Most players only need to have a single weapon in their arsenal to do everything. Pre-CU there was a wide range of damage types, and players had an incentive to carry a mix of weapons for different situations. That is no longer the case post-CU.
2. Getting a "Perfect" Weapon is Way Too Easy - The relatively low damage caps on weapons, combined with easy to get damage enhancers have made it so that players no longer put in much work towards trying to get a better and better weapon. On top of that, the few rare, hard to get loot schematics produce weapons that are no better than the standard schematics.
3. The Quality of a Weapon has Very Little Impact in PvE - For players that are grinding, which is were gun's would get used up the most, a cheap 20k un-enhanced weapon is about just as effective as an "uber" 6mil weapon.
4. Getting Best Possible Resources is Too Easy - I respecced to weaponsmith shortly after the CU. It only took my two days of shopping to get the best possible resources ever on my server for most of the big seller guns. And I didn't even have to use a 30k resource kit to do it.I just shopped on the global vendor search and spammed a little in Cnet.
5. There is No Creativity to Weapon Crafting - Almost all weaponsmiths seem to follow the exact same formula when it comes to how they experiment on a weapon. Players don't have much reason to seek out one weaponsmith over another.
Basically, since the CU, the quality of weapons has become drastically less important in combat, the need for multiple weapons has dissapeared, and theavailability oftop-of-the-line weapons has gone way up. These are the biggest reasons for slumps in the weapon market. Blaming it on ADKs is a scapegoat, and all that nerfing ADKs would do is to piss off a good junk of the playerbase, while at the same time still leaving weaponsmith a mess. I know it might sound like I'm being rude, but frankly, I think any effort made to get the devs to nerf or change ADKs is a complete waste of time that could be much better spent trying to get them to address some of the issues listed above.
Agree wholeheartedly with the above.
I'd also like to say that while the ADK was a bad idea, it wasn't a player who implemented it. Lobbying for a change now will make crafters the bad guy. Changing it to 50% decay isn't a good idea either, the lure is 0 decay. People invested in that idea, and changing it now wouldn't be fair.
With all of the ADKs out there, I never had any trouble selling high-end weapons. I think some people may overestimate the length of time weapons stay ADK'd. A template change (very common occurance these days) can, and often does, lead to the weapon being destroyed in favor of the new weapon.
The crafter side of me understands the concern, and while I agree ADKs should've never been introduced, I just as firmly believe they shouldn't be changed now either.
The combat side of me would feel somewhat cheated if this change took place, and I'd probably make a statement by crafting all decayables myself (I have enough toons). Now I know everyone couldn't do this, but I bet the majority of folks with several ADKs could, and some (not all) would. These are the same people buying ourhigh-end weapons, I don't think changing their ADKs would go over very well.
"I think some people may overestimate the length of time weapons stay ADK'd. A template change (very common occurance these days) can, and often does, lead to the weapon being destroyed in favor of the new weapon."
Very very true. I have many repeat customers that have destroyed their ADKed weapon for a new one, whether for an upgrade, or different weapon for the same profession or for a different profession. Selling or trading ADKed weapon is also difficult. The weapons that have a chance of being traded ADKed are generally the speciality weapons like Transdo rifle.
I think ADKs have given me an oppertunaty to spend time to craft great weapons. No-one is going to spend the time or money on a weapon that is going to be useless in 4-6 weeks time.
For those crafters that enjoy mass producing weapons and selling them 50k each, the market is still out there as it always was and ADKs just doesnt effect them. I am not remotely interested in that end of the market, I have only done one factory run of weapons and that was to test slicing.
I can spend as much time crafting as I want, there is always something for me to do if I want to. I think things would be more interesting for sure if weapon variety was there. There isnt even any point me making Melee weapons at all.
So in closing, adks should not be changed but i think if they changed the way things decayed then you would see a drop in the price of adks and the want/need for them. Plus, i think it's damn time to get rid of armor decay upon death. God that pissses me off to the point that i want not to wear anything but my adk'd ris
As posted a couple times before i don't think anybody would object to change the to fast decay we have right now.
poorboywrx wrote:
If weapons and armor did not decay so rapidly there would be no need for the community or need to buy an adk for a weapon. RIght now as it stands i can tear a 15-20mil suit of RIS(not including ~2mil to ab slice it) in a week maybe, more like 3days of heavy playing. Of course i'm goign to adk that. Then theirs my proton carbine, which is going to get an adk simply because a weaponsmith cannot make a gun that will hit another player harder. The min plus the elemental is better then a stocked, powercelled E11 or Elite. I still buy guns though and armor occasionally just to change it up. The problem isnt necessarily the adk itself, people are just not going to shell out 20mil for a sweet set of RIS and a sweet gun that is going to decay pretty fast. I would spend 4-5mil on a sweet gun and not adk it if i knew when i repaired it it didnt havve a chance to suddenly break, and if i was going to get more then a week out of it using pup's and whatnot. No matter how sweet it is, it's by all means replacable, but to replace something so expensive so often it just makes sense to adk it.
So in closing, adks should not be changed but i think if they changed the way things decayed then you would see a drop in the price of adks and the want/need for them. Plus, i think it's damn time to get rid of armor decay upon death. God that pissses me off to the point that i want not to wear anything but my adk'd ris
Message Edited by Maceey on 10-27-2005 11:15 PM
When the ADK was first proposed, I remember being very excited about them. They seemed like a cool reward. The trouble was that no one really knew how they worked.
By the time we found out that they were reusable, it was too late to do anything about them. That's still my biggest hangup. I realize WHY SOE made them re-usable -- so people wouldn't get burned during the CURB conversion process and end up with their ADK on a now crappy weapon -- but it's gone way beyond that now. They should be one per person, non-tradable, non-reusable. Anything less is just another slap in the face of the crafting community.
Message Edited by SeaRaptor on 10-27-2005 03:23 PM
The thing that really p*sses me off with these ADK discussions is the premise that ADKs are hurting weaponsmiths.
I cant believe the sheer neivity of the thinking.
This is the nerf argument:
"ADKs mean that a weaponsmith makes a double and triple capped weapon and then no-one comes back to buy weapons"
The problem with this rather narrow argument is that:
It assumes that people will actually stick to the one weapon. The fact is:
1) People change profession
2) People want to use some other weapons of the same group
3) Even when you hit many caps, it still isnt the perfect weapon. The perfect weapon would need Max damage cap, Min damage cap, Speed cap, Accuracy cap (not that it does anything) and a slice Critical.
It assumes that ADKed weapons are constantly being traded and never go out of existance. The fact is:
1) Its harder to trade or sell an ADK weapon so the price of it goes down
2) At some point the price is often 1-5 mil above the price of the ADK and destroying it isnt such a big deal
3) Some people, myself included, often cant be bother to go through the trouble of the trade and destroy it
It assumes that everyone has ADKs. The fact is:
1) Established players have several ADKs. They are often quite rich. They will also consequently pay over the odds for a weapon. They will work with the crafter to get the best thing that can be made. This I have found is both very rewarding from both a crafting viewpoint as well as money making viewpoint.
It assumes that ADKs uniformally effect the spectrum of Weaponsmith. The fact is:
1) The market for cheap weapons is always there. People that either neither rich enough for ADKs or are not strong enough level to have the best weapons so wouldnt ADK them anyway.
2) The Elite weapon market should be the one most effected but this is componsated by the fact people are prepared to pay extreem amount of money for weapons they *think* they going to keep forever
It assumes that if the ADKs are removed , weaponsmith will have better trade. The fact is:
1) If ADKs are removed, people will not pay good money for a weapon that last a few weeks
2) Crafters will end up making cheap weapons only which translates into the mass production market which will many crafters, myself included, are not remotely interested in.
Ive got a vested interest in keeping ADKs for TWO reasons:
1) Im not interested in mass producing stuff. I like making speciality weapons, that market will be completely dead if ADKs are remove. Cant see anyone speeding 10+mil on a weapon that last a few weeks. The mass production market is out there for people if they want to do it today, but its not for me.
2) Ive got 13 ADKs and I love them. Its not even the investment. I got a fair bit of money from being a weaponsmith, around 120mil. I could have more if I did WS full time, Im sure I could cap. I just think the ADKs are useful. For reference, Ive destroyed around 5 ADKed weapons and 1 complete ADK suit of armor. I got a great set of RIS with loads of tapes. I am now in the process of collecting some more tapes in the hope that someone can make an either better set of RIS. In the mean time, i dont have to worry about my stuff crapping out.
Lastly:
If crafters could make decent Melee weapons (theres virtually nothing we can make) and the quest weapons werent so much better. That alone would improve things. I heard some arguments to how weapon caps are hurting WS, i think there is merit to that argument too.
fabkins wrote:
The thing that really p*sses me off with these ADK discussions is the premise that ADKs are hurting weaponsmiths.
I cant believe the sheer neivity of the thinking. Please look at your own thinking if you think that little yellow line is our only argument.
This is the nerf argument:
"ADKs mean that a weaponsmith makes a double and triple capped weapon and then no-one comes back to buy weapons"
The problem with this rather narrow argument is that:
It assumes that people will actually stick to the one weapon. The fact is:
1) People change profession. Thank god they do.
2) People want to use some other weapons of the same group Why would you want to use different weapons 1 weapon will do great for everything.
3) Even when you hit many caps, it still isn't the perfect weapon. The perfect weapon would need Max damage cap, Min damage cap, Speed cap, Accuracy cap (not that it does anything) and a slice Critical. Well you should know that you can't min/max/speed/sac cap all in one weapon. So a dmg/sac cap is pretty damn perfect if you ask me. And not everybody will want to buy a new weapon that's 0.05 faster........
It assumes that ADKed weapons are constantly being traded and never go out of existance. The fact is:
1) Its harder to trade or sell an ADK weapon so the price of it goes down. Right now it's hard yes but it's mostly weapons before we started double capping a lot with the new bh loot.
2) At some point the price is often 1-5 mil above the price of the ADK and destroying it isn't such a big deal. Maybe not for you since you have 120mil.... But i know tons of people that can't just afford to buy a 10mil weapon that easy.
3) Some people, myself included, often cant be bother to go through the trouble of the trade and destroy it. Because you have the 120mil...
It assumes that everyone has ADKs. The fact is:
1) Established players have several ADKs. They are often quite rich. They will also consequently pay over the odds for a weapon. They will work with the crafter to get the best thing that can be made. This I have found is both very rewarding from both a crafting viewpoint as well as money making viewpoint. Yes but i think you are forgetting that every day there are more and more adk's in this game because more and more players go past that 1 year.
It assumes that ADKs uniformally effect the spectrum of Weaponsmith. The fact is:
1) The market for cheap weapons is always there. People that either neither rich enough for ADKs or are not strong enough level to have the best weapons so wouldnt ADK them anyway. No but i don't know what you ask for a scout blaster but i don't make a big fortune out of those... Right now it's more a good service if a weaponsmith offers grind level weapons.
2) The Elite weapon market should be the one most effected but this is componsated by the fact people are prepared to pay extreem amount of money for weapons they *think* they going to keep forever. I don't care if the price drops on the "elite" weapons i would encourage it. Unlike you i'm not rich i don't need to be rich. Like summer posted so greatly: I want to feel like i'm needed. I'm not in it for the money. If i was i would have charged 10mil+ for a double capped laser rifle but i don't....
It assumes that if the ADKs are removed , weaponsmith will have better trade. The fact is:
1) If ADKs are removed, people will not pay good money for a weapon that last a few weeks. Decay is currently to fast but it doesn't mean we can't talk about this subject as well. Since the devs don't care how we feel or how many bugs we have. And what do you call good money? 10mil+??? I couldn't care less if double capped laser rifles would go for 1mil.
2) Crafters will end up making cheap weapons only which translates into the mass production market which will many crafters, myself included, are not remotely interested in. Now this is some very naive thinking on your part. Somewhere above you posted that the vets/rich people will want the best and will work with a weaponsmith to get it. And why wouldn't they without the adk??? They did it before the adk so why wouldn't they do it if it was changed...
Ive got a vested interest in keeping ADKs for TWO reasons:
1) Im not interested in mass producing stuff. I like making speciality weapons, that market will be completely dead if ADKs are remove. Cant see anyone speeding 10+mil on a weapon that last a few weeks. The mass production market is out there for people if they want to do it today, but its not for me.
A personal reason oke. Well if you might have noticed we all have our reasons to be pro or against on this subject. I might like to mass produce weapons. I rather sell 20 normal weapons then having to buy cells that are priced to expansive then sell 1 weapon in that week. I'm a crafter not a combat player i want to feel needed i want to craft. I certainly don't want to craft 5 double capped weapons each week and sit on my butt the rest of the time.
2) Ive got 13 ADKs and I love them. Its not even the investment. I got a fair bit of money from being a weaponsmith, around 120mil. I could have more if I did WS full time, Im sure I could cap. I just think the ADKs are useful. For reference, Ive destroyed around 5 ADKed weapons and 1 complete ADK suit of armor. I got a great set of RIS with loads of tapes. I am now in the process of collecting some more tapes in the hope that someone can make an either better set of RIS. In the mean time, i dont have to worry about my stuff crapping out.
Lastly:
If crafters could make decent Melee weapons (theres virtually nothing we can make) and the quest weapons werent so much better. That alone would improve things. I heard some arguments to how weapon caps are hurting WS, i think there is merit to that argument too.
See the other topics we have on this forum we know that we want it changed. But people should stop using it as an argument in this discussion. Yes it effects the size of the impact the adk has on our profession but all of our issues effect the impact of each other.
And no offense but stop talking about removing the adk. A couple of people want this. But the majority of us don't even want to see that happen.