Teras Kasi Archive

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antares_Kauri wrote:

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Moosha_Festerbone wrote:
TKA also get no counterattack (+100 for swordsman?), no block (+115 for pikeman?)and no dodge (+105 for fencer?).

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Actually, TKAs get all three in the form of defensive acuity. Whether that is working properly at present or not is a running question.

antares
master pikeman

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kpr wrote:

Talieysn42 wrote

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We are EXTREMELY vulnerable to intimidate, stuns, dizzy, and knockdown - moreso than you if you're a fencer, swordsman, pikeman, carbineer, pistoleer, or rifleman.

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This statement almost made me laugh.

Rifleman dont have kd defense, infact we have the lowest in the main combat proffessions (minus commando and bounty hunters)

Tka dont have the lowest status defense values.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

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Taliesyn42 wrote:

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MagusZDark wrote:

I have no problem with TKA. Heh, I just set up a macro that consist of Sprayshot; FireKD; Confusion Shot and the Crippling Shot. Because Laser Carbines are AP2 I can cut through composite.

But of course if I were to get KD/Dizzy I would be dead (unless I was wearing composite, heh).

Also if I do knock him/her down I will take out my scatter and use torso shot and eye shot (Not necessary to deplete the mind but to blind him)

Message Edited by MagusZDark on 03-20-2004 03:17 PM

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Ok, quick question - how did you manage to edit your post? I've been going over the options and CANNOT find one to edit posts. Is it because I've turned star ratings off?

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antares_Kauri wrote:

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Moosha_Festerbone wrote:
TKA also get no counterattack (+100 for swordsman?), no block (+115 for pikeman?)and no dodge (+105 for fencer?).

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Actually, TKAs get all three in the form of defensive acuity. Whether that is working properly at present or not is a running question.

antares
master pikeman

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I'll tell you what. Ill get a rifleman buddy to equip a rifle, Ill buff myself and then let him shoot at mewith autoattack (the least accurate attack they have) for as long as you want to sit there. I could offer you 10 credits for every time I dodge, block or counterattack and I am guessing that at the end of an hour... I'd owe you like 30 credts? It is foolish to include defensive acuity as some kind of balance to the melee classes when it hardly works. That would be about as logical as me saying that pikeman is balanced fine because if someone is not buffed and has no armor on and runs out of stims, you can really kick their ass in just a couple of hits.

-Moosha Festerbone

Yes, I actually did read it. I also read that earlier in the thread, people used TKA having less defense as a justification as to why they are slightly better offensively and you tossed in DA as an example of our defensive prowess. That being the case, it not working becomes more important then it would have been otherwise. The only thing that makes TKA any more powerful then pikeman or fencer is that we can directly attack the mind pool. There is absolutely nothing else that makes us any better. You could say that we can dizzy and kd, and I would say that we are required to do that due to less defensive ability then the other melee (as well as fencer being able to do the same... as well as swordsman who's AE sweep has a possibility to randomly dizzy a target much like spitting rawl can blind or bleed for me)... etc etc.

-Moosha Festerbone

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Taliesyn42 wrote:

1) Get 80% kinetic composite armor. I don't care if it's expensive. I don't care that you need to get buffed to wear it. Newsflash - Teras Kasi [b]ONLY[/b] do kinetic damage. That's it - no stun, no blast, just kinetic. If you put on 80% kinetic, that's an autowin over many TK right there. Suddenly we're looking at 50-100 damage with VK's and 25-50 bare-handed. Yay.

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This is really the only thing you need to do. I am a TKM and whenever I run across a person with high kinetic armor and buffs (which everyone should have for PvP anyway), I literally cannot damage them, they regen faster than I can hurt them. To have any chance at all, I try to kd/dizzy them and then switch to my Geo pistol. A pure TKM simply cannot compete with anybody wearing 80% kinetic composite armor.

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Taliesyn42 wrote:

Oh, guys, I'm sick of all you non-TK players whining that we're the uber-elite profession in the game, when the fault is invariably yours. For the record, I'm a TKM. Currently, I'm TKM/Master Brawler/Fencer 1011, although I'm considering going Master Swordsman rather than Master Fencer. I play monks in D&D, monks in EQ, and have always been interested in martial arts IRL, so don't give me that BS about being just another powergamer.

Anyway, I'm a TKM, and I lose in PvP. A *LOT*. Admittedly, I tend to run into some REALLY nasty pvp players a lot (heya, Awkward), but if anything, it's forced my profession's weaknesses into my awareness. So here's a step-by-step guide to beating TKM's, and to a lesser extent, *ALL* melee.

First off, let's clear some misconceptions:

1) Teras Kasi do NOT have a 20m attack. Regular attacks have a range of 5m. UA3 can hit from 15m, primarily to give us some small chance of hitting people kiting us, I suppose.

2) The 20m knockdown you all complain about is NOT a TK attack. It's Unarmed Lunge 2, which is a Master Brawler attack. (Novice Brawlers also have Unarmed Lunge 1, which is a 15m posture-down attack.) Anyone willing to attain Master Brawler has the full suite of Lunge2 attacks, allowing all Master Brawlers to knock people down with any melee weapon from 20m. I've not tested KD2, but I cannot recall connecting with it at a range greater than 11m.

Actually Lunge1 is also a 20m attack. test it out on a friend. All the brawler lunges are 20m attacks.

3) While TK do get directed attacks in HeadHit1, BodyHit1, and LegHit1, they are WEAK - they hit about as hard as a standard unarmed attack, so if you're in 80% composite and we're using VK's, we might do 50 damage to that pool. Compare that to the damage put out by Two-Hand Head Hit 3 and Sniper shot - TK aren't even in the same LEAGUE with targeted attacks. Basically, a TK using targeted attacks is spending HAM (and large amounts of it if armored) to do normal hits to the named location.

Head hit is devastating when used correctly, even through an80% kinetic comp helm,it is my best friend. I use that almost exclusively to take down another TKM.

4) Yes, we have a knockdown/dizzy. We're the only profession to get both with one hit. However, Master Brawlers get a knockdown, and fencers get a dizzy. Swordsmen and Pikemen both have knockdowns as well, IIRC. On top of that, Bounty Hunters, Smugglers, and Carbineers all have knockdowns. Many of those professions also have dizzy attacks as well, and use them. Don't blame us for a using an attack intentionally given us that everyone else uses as well.

5) Teras Kasi do *NOT* have massive defenses. Teras Kase are an offensively-oriented profession. We can inflict any state and have minor targeting ability, and can put out quite a lot of damage. However, our melee and ranged defense really aren't all that good (50-ish), and our secondary defense (Defensive Acuity) flat-out doesn't work. If you're facing a TK who's bloody hard as hell to hit, he has defensive mods from a second elite combat profession, most likely dabbling in pistoleer or fencer. Count him as a stacker, not a TK. On top of that, our state defenses are only a hair better than you'd find on non-combat professions. We are EXTREMELY vulnerable to intimidate, stuns, dizzy, and knockdown - moreso than you if you're a fencer, swordsman, pikeman, carbineer, pistoleer, or rifleman. Again, stackers can work around this, but most of you people whining about us have the ability to do the same. Those of you who can't, well, you have other advantages (example - both BH's and commandos can set us on fire.)

I have some fencer for the Melee D and Ranged D mods. Melee D is 120, Ranged is 109. Thisis not a huge advantage, but it does help.I am a Master TK /Doc 4440 / Fencer 3000. So for you tosay "Count them as a stacker" is, quite frankly, total crap. No offense, but we are given 250 skill points, the Devs have in essenceencouraged us to experiment with our templates, so why shouldn't I use what pointsI had left over to give myself some extradefenses? I PvP alot, and any edge I can get is welcom.

But to be clear here, I am a TKM, and not a stacker. Please don't presume to tell me I am not a TK because I took some fencer.In all fairness, don't putlabels onme or anyone, period. Unless you would like to be labeled as well, and in that case, based on this statment, I would label you ignorant.

Now, to beat us, here's what you have to do:

*Note: This assumes both people involved have full doctor buffs. If one side does and one side doesn't, the unbuffed side is almost guaranteed to lose.

**Note: This doesn't apply as much when you're facing a pvp template, for the simple reason that the person involved has designed the entire character around the template. If you're a Pistoleer/Ranger and try fighting a TKM/Brawler/Swordsman/4000 Fencer, you're getting stomped. They're totally geared up to kill players, you're not. End of story.

1) Get 80% kinetic composite armor. I don't care if it's expensive. I don't care that you need to get buffed to wear it. Newsflash - Teras Kasi [b]ONLY[/b] do kinetic damage. That's it - no stun, no blast, just kinetic. If you put on 80% kinetic, that's an autowin over many TK right there. Suddenly we're looking at 50-100 damage with VK's and 25-50 bare-handed. Yay.

2) Wear a shield when doing PvP. I don't care if they wear out in a hurry - you can take another 40% off the remaining damage by wearing one. Suddenly TKM's will do 30-60 with VK's or half that unarmed.

3) If you're not stacking professions with KD defense, eat some food that defends against KD or dizzy (personally, I think it's more important to protect against dizzy, as that's the killer, not KD).

4) Carry emergency food/drink/spice around. Doctor buffs can add 2k to all your physical stats easily, and vasarian brandy can give you 400 more to all the mind stats, and you can drink 2. Add on Fishak for 500 more mind and Muon for 500 more to all mind stats, and you're looking at 1800 more mind and 1300 more focus/willpower. If you have the above armor, we'll never cut through all that HAM.

You can not drink two brandies and take fishak. at 49 fill per brandy, two fills your drink stomach. If you want extra mind, get a musician or dancer buff, and take some canape. Mind sub stats are just as important as the mind pool itself.

I'm Zabrak, so 1000 base mind, 500 Focus, 900 Will.

So2 Brandies at +402 each gives me 1804 Mind, 904 Focus, and 1704 Will.

AMaster Musician buff ups my stats to 1804 Mind, 1404 Focus, 2604 Will.

If I take a +330 canape, my stats increase to 1804 Mind, 2034 Focus, and 2904 Will. (I can even take two if needed, but I usuallysave room for KD food and Synthsteak.)

Power boost adds another 500 to mind to give me 2304 Mind, 2034 Focus, and 2904 Will.

In a pinch I will take a Muon, which adds an additional +500 to each stat.

If I get a Master Dancer buff, thats an additional +1000 to mind.

So with all that I can effectively get my mind stats to:

Mind - 3804

Focus - 2534

Will - 3404

Fishak is worthless now-a-days, especially with a 78 fill and only a 10-15 minute duration.

5) If you get knocked down and not dizzied, get back up as soon as you can, but do [b]NOT[/b] spam the /stand command. If you're dizzied, if you're a doc, heal thyself. If you're not, your best bet is to either knock them down or run (burst run if you can). This applies when you're facing ANY profession that can do either a knockdown or a posture down.

6) If you get hit with both KD and dizzy, keep your head. Use /stand once, and wait to see if you get up. If you do, go on about your business. If you fall back down, /stand again. Do NOT spam the command, because each time the game processes a /stand command while you're dizzy, it makes another check to see if you fall down.

7) USE YOUR SPECIALS. Swordsmen and riflemen can do HUGE amounts of damage to the head. Fencers can dizzy then lunge for the knockdown. Many professions can knockdown. Make us bleed. Light us on fire. Stun us, blind us, intimidate us. Remember, we are TERRIBLE at defending against specials. Use that weakness against us.

This is true, but this is also where Foods and Skill/Armor Tapes, and taking extra defensescome into play. TK is offense oriented as you point out, but there are plenty of alternatives to add some defenses to ourselves. A guildie of mine always says: "Offense wins games, defense wins tournaments."

8) This is mostly to the swordsmen out there - if you're having trouble hitting us with your low accuracy weapons, switch to something with better accuracy. [b]SO[/b] many swordsmen whine that they can't hit us with their powerhammers, then react with horror when it's suggested they try something else. Yes, the powerhammer is a very nice weapon - AP2, blast damage, HUGE damage. However, even the best ones suffer from -30 accuracy penalties, which just kill them in PvP. Instead, try a top-of-the-line curved two-handed sword. Yes, it does kinetic, which anyone can defend against, but it's +10 instead of -30. Think about it - do you do more damage hitting 5% of the time for 200 each or hitting 40% of the time for 80 each? (And don't forget, the sword attacks a LOT faster, so the smaller damage per hit isn't as big a drawback as it may seem.)

9) If you have better range, [b]KITE US![/b] We can't hit you from 25m away, and if you have decent KD and posture down resists, then we're not much of a threat unless we can get within 10m. Just save your burst run until you see us get into melee range, then fire it off yourself. Run around corners - we use /follow to stay on you, and that'll trip us up on the scenery. Lose yourself in the scenery, then come back and snipe us. Nine times out of ten, when a ranged profession complains about losing to a TK, it's because they didn't kite.

A smart TK won't give chase for long. I will always attempt to bait my opponent into a tight area or a building, this is where we excel. I will rarely give chase for longunless I know there is no chance the one kiting can kill me, and even then I don't like running marathons. The 30 faction points I will get from killing the kiter is not worth ending up out in the middle of BFE.

10) If you haven't mastered an elite combat profession, you have pretty much no chance of beating someone who has, whether they be TKM or Master Carbineer. There is a large difference between 4444 and Master, much less someone who is (as I saw in another post) 0121 in their profession vs a Master in another.

11) PRACTICE. Don't expect to do well against a PvP'er if you only ever fight PvE. They are two entirely different skillsets and approaches to character design. If you're a part-timer and fight someone whose entire focus is PvP, you will probably lose no matter what - he's built better for PvP, he has more knowledge of what to do, and he has far more experience. When (not if, when) you lose, look back on what he did, what you did, how he countered you, what you could have done differently, etc. Don't just come to this board whining that we need to be nerfed just because you don't know how to PvP.

If you just do the things I mentioned above, you'll almost never lose to a non-stacking TKM. (TKM as part of a stack is another matter entirely, but that's a stacking problem, not a TKM problem.)

Stacking is NOT a problem, especially now with the caps on defenses. I don't understand why you seem to bedecrying the practice of taking defenses, when in factit is a smart way to play. I am a dedicated PvP template, tell me,why should I leave myself totally defenseless if I can help it?

Finally....

12) You will NEVER win every fight, and there will probably be some people you will never beat. If you just come here whining because you lost, then you're wasting our bandwidth. There's a wookie TKM/Swordsman/Brawler that I can barely touch, much less beat, but I don't come here whining that he's a cheater. I just watch what he did and learn. You need to do the same as well.

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Overall a great post, but your views on stacking are a tad skewed in my opinion. Before Pub 7 Stacking was an issue because there was no cap, and in essence you had unhittableplayers. But now there is a cap, and NOBODY is unhittable anymore. Furthermore, anyone can stack, it's not some secret. Basic fact, some professions are defense oriented (Pistols, Fencer) while others are offense oriented (TKM, Rifleman), it is simply strategy to combine two that suit your playstyle. I am sick of terms like "Dabbler", "Stacker" or "Defense Whore". Most of the people who throw these terms around don't PvP much, or at all, so they do not understand the benefit of having defenses.

not to sound like a nerf crier (dontcha just hate posts that start like that?),

but your way to beat a TKM involves getting 80% comp (can't even put that stuff on without buffs and my secondaries are maxed), buying shields and food that take constant renewal and getting buffs every time. That's not balance, that's attempting to overcome an unbalance through means not related to the unbalance.

Swordsman do mind damage yes, but huge? hardly in PvP. Using a 340 damage sword, I did a whopping 61 damage (on average, varied between60 and 65)to an unarmoured TKM, 200 to myself because of the HAM cost on a 2H Head Hit 3, granted, not the strongest weapon, but few people can get 1K damage hammers. So let's recap for a sec: that's 60 against an unarmoured opponent using my strongest mind attack, and you say you do 50 damage versus a guy with 80% composite.. I'm not going to finish the sentence because any conclusion I connect to those two facts will make me a nerf crier.
Bleed you, sure, cept they're pointless, ticking for a few points every 20 seconds, by that time I'm dead already.

You say use my specials? I do, but mostly because I like watching the swirly effects. A special does about 3 times more damage to myself in HAM costs then it does to my opponent, and with 7 area attacks, all I really can use is Hit 3 and Head Hit 3. those are most powerful and no other special provides any useful effects in a one on one battle.

I realise when everyone in the game has 80% composite and PSGs and buffs and food and stacks up defenses, the fights will last so long balance is finally achieved, but I like it when things are balanced when you have nothing but your weapon and your skills, and with the highest melee defense of the melee elites, you can't honestly say they're not defense focussed as much as anything else.

(Oh and I'm not a nerf crier, I like TKM just the way it is, I only retired from it to go through every melee prof for the fun of it. I just wish the other profs would get cranked up to the same level)

damn laptop, typed up a whole plea and it got deleted off my clipboard.

righto, in short: your plan to defeat a TKM means aside from being a Master Swordsman, I'll also need 80% composite, buffs, food and a PSG. To defeat a buffed TKM, I shuold bloody well expect to just need Master Swordsman without anything, seeing as their mind pool won't be buffed, and that's my target.
TKM specials compared to Swordsman specials have almost negligible HAM costs (roughly 220 on a Head Hit 3 you mention), so a TKM doesn't need buffs to use their specials to the fullest. A Swordsman however can let off 5 head hits and be almost down.
Not to mention that while you say TKM isn't defensive, TKA gets the highest toughness mod and melee defense of all the elites. (fencer gets 8 more melee def, but 20 less toughness)

now to support those claims with a few more facts determined from some PvP fighting.

I as a Master Heavy Swordsman using a very good curved sword (it's not like everyone can manage to get a power hammer with enough speed attachments to make it worthwhile). battled a TKM. Both without buffs, without armour, without food. Now if that ain't THE perfect balanced fight I dunno what is.
First I used my Master Brawler skills to dizzy-KD his ass with one-handed, then I switched to two-handed, oblivious of my fate. I did a bunch of head hit 3's, doing 60 damage to him, 220 HAM cost to myself. That **edit** just ain't funny. A while later, the dizzy effect wore off, he got up, knocked me down and finished my off in 2 Unarmed Hit 3's seeing as I had a few hundred HAM left total. He didn't dodge while he was down or anything, and I would have been down long enough for an extra couple of UAH3's, so stun/intimidate would have done precious little for my case.
That's 60 damage with my strongest mind hit against an unarmed TKM, and you think 50 damage vs 80% comp is bad?

I later tried this again against a fellow swordsman, who had buffs and entertainer enhanced mind to 1500. I knocked him down with dizzy as before, switched to my Swordsman skills and kicked his ass before he could get up using my head hit 3, doing250-300 damage to him per hit.

My explanation for these duels?
TKM gets melee defense +62 and unarmed toughness +57. Swordsman gets melee defense +20 and two-handed toughness +43.
The defenses cause my damage output to be 4-5 times less on a TKM then on a Swordsman. Wouldn't be so terrible had the damage I took been done 4-5 times less as well. As it is now, in a pure balanced all-skill fight, TKM can simply do more damage.

Any other explanation for this damage output? I'm happy to hear it so I can avoid it. I don't think it's impossible that the defense difference aren't the main cause, but they do seem to be the most likely one.

My final note:No, I don't want TKA's nerfed at all, they're fine just the way they are. They get KD+dizzy? fine by me, special effects IMHO SHOULD be the TKA's strong point. However to be the strong point, damage output, defenses and speed shouldn't also be your strong points. I wish the other professions would be taken to the point where they each had their own strong points.

Alright, whether you want to hear it or not, here's my opinion, I'll give it in short, show the facts and events why I believe as I do and conclude. Please do note if you have any other explanations for the duels I've done, I'm happy to hear them. I just observe and put the facts in a row for you to examine.

righto, in short: your plan to defeat a TKM means aside from being a Master Swordsman, I'll also need 80% composite, buffs, food and a PSG. To defeat a buffed TKM, I shuold bloody well expect to just need Master Swordsman without anything, seeing as their mind pool won't be buffed, and that's my target.
TKM specials compared to Swordsman specials have almost negligible HAM costs (roughly 220 on a Head Hit 3 you mention), so a TKM doesn't need buffs to use their specials to the fullest. A Swordsman however can let off 5 head hits and be almost down.
Not to mention that while you say TKM isn't defensive, TKA gets the highest toughness mod and melee defense of all the elites. (fencer gets 8 more melee def, but 20 less toughness)

now to support those claims with a few more facts determined from some PvP fighting.

I as a Master Heavy Swordsman using a very good curved sword (it's not like everyone can manage to get a power hammer with enough speed attachments to make it worthwhile). battled a TKM. Both without buffs, without armour, without food. Now if that ain't THE perfect balanced fight I dunno what is.
First I used my Master Brawler skills to dizzy-KD his ass with one-handed, then I switched to two-handed, oblivious of my fate. I did a bunch of head hit 3's, doing 60 damage to him, 220 HAM cost to myself. That **edit** just ain't funny. A while later, the dizzy effect wore off, he got up, knocked me down and finished my off in 2 Unarmed Hit 3's seeing as I had a few hundred HAM left total. He didn't dodge while he was down or anything, and I would have been down long enough for an extra couple of UAH3's, so stun/intimidate would have done precious little for my case.
60 damage vs unarmoured TKM with my strongest mind hit against your 50 damage vs 80% composite with your strongest mind hit. I call those odds pretty good for you.

I later tried this again against a fellow swordsman, who had buffs and entertainer enhanced mind to 1500. I knocked him down with dizzy as before, switched to my Swordsman skills and kicked his ass before he could get up using my head hit 3, doing250-300 damage to him per hit.

My explanation for these duels?
TKM gets melee defense +62 and unarmed toughness +57. Swordsman gets melee defense +20 and two-handed toughness +43.
The defenses cause my damage output to be 4-5 times less on a TKM then on a Swordsman. Wouldn't be so terrible had the damage I took been done 4-5 times less as well. As it is now, in a pure balanced all-skill fight, TKM can simply do more damage.

Any other explanation for this damage output? I'm happy to hear it so I can avoid it. I don't think it's impossible that the defense difference aren't the main cause, but they do seem to be the most likely one.