Teras Kasi Archive

Lo'Pan: I think it would have been better if things had been perfectly balanced when the game was released--but it's a pretty unreasonable thing to expect if you have any experience with MMORPGs. I've yet to play one game that didn't need serious class and combat changes within the first year, and I'll be knocked dumb if I ever see an MMORPG that's really "finished" earlier than a year after release.

In general, the problem is that a larger population of players is *much* better at discovering what works well than a smaller population is. On top of that, no matter how serious beta testers are, they're rarely as insane as the powergamers who get moving in live. And because problems are changed as they're identified, there's rarely enough time to really learn the system to such a degree that the best tactics are known.

With SWG, I've identified a few significant problems in the combat system. The most basic one is that damage output doesn't smoothly as well with "level" as it probably ought to. Unarmed 1-4 is one of the few basic combat skill lines that I feel is relatively balanced--and this is because the damage increases are built into the profession, not the weapons. Working on unarmed, you'll notice that the con colors of enemies are generally pretty correct--blue things aren't too hard, whites are a good fight, yellows are challenging, reds are a total no-go. With other combat skills, there's a point after the first box or two where you get the first *really* effective weapon for that profession. As soon as you get that weapon, damage output increases dramatically. The special attacks are still a pretty big bonus later, but these weapons generally make whites and many yellows easy fights at those levels. This is why unarmed feels "hard"--not because it's too hard to get unarmed XP, but because it's too easy to get other XP. (My opinion on that, but unarmed is the only basiccombat linethat it feels like you've accomplished something when you top it off.)

The second major problem is (my opinion here) a combination of the armor hole bug on NPCs and creatures and the fact that DOT attacks completely ignore armor. For PvP fights, this is less significant because a fight can be over before a DOT ticks, but for PvE this is significantly imbalancing. The reason that killing some high level mobs with creature pets was formerly so easy was not so much the raw tanking power of the creatures (although that was pretty big), but the fact that even if the creature was immune to your damage type and had heavy armor, your bleed attack would go right through--which results in a pretty hefty amount of damage as time goes on and you keep the pet alive, only having to stop to restart the DOTs when they wear off.

The third problem, which isn't as major as the first two, is the HAM system. While it's rather fresh and interesting, it creates some rather odd strategies. Like: if you have enough medical skills, you can spam really high cost moves over and over again and be healed up trivially at the end of the fight, or in the middle by a friend or even yourself. It seems to me that HAM costs were intended to make you pace yourself in combat. Instead, they become an even more important reason for everybody to have medical skills--and if there are medical skills available, they're almost no constraint at all. My character has very high mind stats and very low health and action stats, because it's more cost effective to use up all of my health and action and then heal them than it is to have good stats for those pools.

And the fourth problem, which really isn't significant at all but I'll mention it anyway, is that medical skills and the like aren't counted in the con system. This is only really made noticable because of the last problem I mentioned--because medical skills increase your power so much that it can turn a low redcon creature into an easy solo kill.

Now, most of the problems I mentioned are hard to notice until the game went live. The first problem with damage output is hard to miss because only after you start to get power-crafters who've been around for a while do you begin to see weapons made of near-perfect materials. And that wouldn't be such a problem either, except that the economy became much more inflationary than I think they expected pretty early on. As a result, resources are practically free, so crafters can stockpile huge amounts of perfect resources, and use them on all weapons, from the weakest to the strongest, and still sell those weapons at prices a rank newbie can afford after a day or two of play time.

The bleed problem doesn't become noticable until you see people using it against really high level enemies--and in those situations, it's easy to mistake for "creature pets are too powerful", because it's the combination of creature pets and bleeds that's making these big enemies fall over quickly. That may go away now that creatures are less good at tanking. (But if the other problem had been identified, a less serious reduction in pet tanking power might have worked.)

And the HAM/healing problem doesn't show up until players have been at things for a few months to really get a feel for the dynamics of the system.

Now, what's been going on so far is that they've been nerfing and buffing professions and weapons to get everybody on the "same level". The problem, of course, is that the level is often too high, and that the secondary effects of powerful-weapon-syndrome and ham-healing-disorder don't get fixed with that kind of problem. I see this in how vibroknucklers were first removed from novice brawler and then teras kasi artists got some significant damage increases. The VKs were removed from novice brawler because unarmed was more powerful than other basic melee professions at the very lowest level. Of course, once they were moved up to teras kasi novice, all the other melee professions do better as soon as they get their first good weapon. The damage increases to teras kasi, I think, go together with the way bleeds were assisting other professions--making the profession without a bleed somewhat underpowered against certain types of enemies (once knockdown was made less powerful.)

Anyway, these things are all very tricky to identify and fix, and if you shake things up too much, people really scream hard. There is going to be a *lot* of screaming after the overall combat changes, but I think they're necessary. Specific problems I know are going to be addressed are the ham/healing dynamics and the weapon power with level issues. The way they intend to fix HAM and healing is by making special moves reduce your HAM maximums instead of doing damage to your HAM bars. These maximums will then heal back *faster* than normal damage does. This potentially solves the problem by making it impossible to use stimpacks to heal fatigue from special attacks, while decreasing the amount of downtime that special attacks generate. End result: people with medical skills or medical support in groups will no longer be special-attack machines, and will have to think about which moves they're using, since that can't be healed. But the increased "healing" of HAM fatigue should hopefully mean that downtime isn't seriously increased.

On the other issue, they're planning to address weapon issues by providing various "levels" of the various weapons. For example, there might be a novice FWG5 pistol, an intermediate FWG5 pistol, and a master FWG5 pistol. This allows the damage done by lower skill characters to be limited--no more uber lower-level weapon usable by someone with only a couple of hours experience in that weapon type. It also allows the different weapons to be more balanced--instead of one weapon in each line having the most damage potential in nearly every situation, the full range of weapons will be available at different power levels. That will allow the tactics of choosing a weapon for damage type against the enemy's armor to make more sense.

I don't know that they're planning on fixing the bleeds-ignore-armor problem I mentioned. But I do hope they'll at least look at it. If they'd identified this as a problem earlier, I think that a number of other changes they've made could have been avoided.

Now--how does this factor into the recent discussions about teras kasi, specifically this one about damage types, and the other one about what should a teras kasi artist be? Well, since combat is being looked at all across the board, some of us see the potential for the profession to move back to its roots in a way, away from the super-tough damage dealing tank we've grown to be with all of the little tweaks and fixes over the past several months. The discussion also comes up because of an off-handcomment Thunderheart made about "Teras Kasi Artists can't be both the best damage dealers and the best tanks at the same time" (or something like that) when addressing balance issues. If they're going to be re-evaluating how all the combat professions work in relation to other professions, it makes sense for us to figure out as a community what we *do* believe we should be strong in, so that the devs might hopefully have a better idea what we think a teras kasi artist is compared to, say, a pikeman. If we give our input, we might also be less surprised at the outcome.

In any case, I don't think that a complete revamp of how the profession works is going to happen. I really don't expect us to get new weapons or moves with extra damage types, or for them to remove vibroknucklers and add AP1 to our bare fists at some level. (Although I prefer that last choice to using VKs.) But it makes sense to talk about these questions and think about the consequences of various choices--if only so we understand why the devs choose to give us different abilities, or choose not to.

I can't even believe you spent that much time to deface what the other guy was saying.. I'm just as sick of this **edit**ing beta as he is. Not so much annoyyed of the fact of all the changes in the game but that the programmers that are incharge of this game are Idiots. The problem with the forums is nobody here as the leverage to actually make any fundamental changes. Are voices are not heard, the DEV's all mighty decide and make changes as they see fit.

When things are working and all of a sudden don't work that is what they fix because it's evidence enough that the game is **edit**ed. So what do they do they fix it. Nerfing on the other hand is at the leisure of the DEV's (when they feel like it) or when it meets there deadlines.

Just so you understand you make think this is just a game but in reality this is a business for money the green kind and everything "SWG" revolves around the deadline. So you know with a Beta they can't be lieable for anything...

Anywho.. for those who don't want to listen to bitching consider Weight Balancing in the game. This solves the PvP issues between Teras Kasi and Marksman Elite skills.

I fail to see how weight has anything to do with balance. I saw your original post and nothing you said really explained your meaning behind weight balance.

I don't want to really see a new damage type. Although, Asheron's Call had many differant damage type weapons for Unarmed and it's nice. But as everyone else said, if getting a new damage type means loosing what TKA has now, I will settle with kinetic only. I am a master smuggler/TKA/medic so I have other damage types I can use.

Guys, The plain fact is..this game is screwed! The only other MMORPG that was anywhere as bad was Shadow B. I cant see how you can justify paying 15$ a month for a monthly nerf patch that with every impliment, makes the game harder and less fun. I truely hope that one of two things happen. Number one: Someone high up making the decisions get fired or number two: this game sinks into the abyss of bad games.

All you guys that defend this game dont seem to realize that everysingle major gamming magazine, and i subscribe to them all, gave this game average and below average marks and for good reason. One gamming columnist said this in PCGamer magazine. "SWG sucks a mountain of ass the size of a Imperial Star Destroyer." I wonder why he said that? Maybe it was the lack of content (which isnt getting better, vehicles and mounts dont make it better...more mission and better payoffs and more incentives to go adventuring do make it better) or mabe it was the lack of foresight in this game....look I was a Beta tester and we begged these guys not to let this game go live and they did anyway....that is a prime example of thier lack of attention tot he people that matter...US! Maybe it was their continuing desire to balance this game into not being fun at all! No this: Balance does not equal benefit. What ever new skill or so called "benefit" you may think you are getting is quickly opffset by a cost or liable action to basically make the new aquired and hard worked for skill...well and moot point. It is nearly oblivious to me to even be a Master CH anymore much less a TKM. What motivation do I have? Novice level creatures being made by BEs that are as good as any MCH pet? Plus many MOBS are so **edit** hard to kill..(Mokks, FS MOBS that are wearing no more armor than me and yet have medium tyo heavy ratings, or 100% kenetic resis? BS!) that it is nearly impossibe to fight them unless you are in a group.

WHich brings me to my next fact of SWG:

The DEVS will do what they have to in order to make you fight in groups!

That is the resouding theme in this game! Why do you think they nerf us so much to point of being pointless? SOEs defenition of content in this game is changin professions and fighting in groups. Q3PO himself said that in a interview. CHs dont have to if we have strong pets....neither do TKMs with KD and dizzy...and I see a nerf comming for the TKA on that subject because we can solo so much. As long as a plyer can stand on his own two feet without help..the DEVS will nerf that class...it is written in stone. They want us to group because they think that is what will make the game and that is the purpose of a MMORPG!

Now what does that mean for people like me? NO FUN AT ALL! I hate groups, I cant get XP fast enought cause its get dispearsed to everyone else and leaves me lacking unless I give out enough damage. Which is another point. Power gammers get XP too fast and the DEVS know it! So they get XP, power through all the professions and then quit because there is no content in this game so then the DEVS nerf any ability of anyone soloing XP and force them into groups and then XP is slower in comming. SEE?! Dont believe me? Look at the Kamuriths on Dath. I could solo 2 missions in 30 minutes, get 42K in money for them both and, get this nearly 60K in XP for just 2 missions! Guess what?! The DEVS NERFED THE KAMURITH MISSIONS! That is just an example...you have to be in a group to get those high paying high XP missions now!

Fact is this game sucks for people like me who want to play ALONE! I hate groups and dont like making camp every freaking time to call a pet that warps to my data pad or quits following..it annoys the people in my group and makes it hard to get to our waypoint.....but the DEVS dont care about that...they just nerf away while my account ends in Feburary and my wallet closes in their faces! World of Warcraft will be better cause Blizzard doesnt make garbage!

Mmm. Random damage type would be extremely unbalancing--it's true that you couldn't depend on it to hit the opponent with the damage type that they're weakest to, but you *could* expect it to rarely hit the opponent with the damage type they're strongest to. Unless that attack hits for significantly less than any other special attack (a 1x damage modifier or ever less than 1x), it's pretty much a "no-brainer" to use that in any case where the enemy has strong kinetic defenses. And it'll work just about as well regardless of what the enemy is good at.

Basically, a random damage type is like using a weapon that hits the average resistance of the enemy across all damage types, which is almost always to your benefit.

As for the people complaining about the devs, and blah blah blah. Um. I guess I give up. If you've convinced yourself that the game is no fun, there's not much I can do about it except suggest that trying to convince the devs to change it to be fun (which might mean convincing them to not change anything) would be better than whining about it. For myself, I've had fun pretty much the whole time I've been playing SWG. I try to suggest changes that I think will help the game become more fun.

Anyway, that's the last I'll say on the subject.

I like the Idea of stun damage... that way Composite would be useless and it would help on Kinetic resisting mobs. I also have another idea with a Stun Move.

I think it'd be cool if we could land a stun on a creature if we hit it fast enough in a certain amount of time. It goes well with TKA, We are susposed to be over whelmingly fast right? So if we could beat some/something fast enough in an amount of time it brings a stun on them. or blind... or dizzy or something!

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Loshuss wrote:

I'm perfectly happy doing only kinetic damage. Sure I can't scratch the Nightsister Elders at all, but I can always pick up another combatprofession or just take up medic and heal everyone around me.We might not be able to hunt a Peko Peko Albatross, butwe can alway benefit a group by training a support class.I think an additional damage type for us would be "insane," since I can drop someone in Composite almost as fast as I can drop someone unarmored provided I am burstrunning andknockdown2 lands.

We're definitely strong enough as it is.

Loshuss TKM/almost DoctorBloodfin

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Amen Brother.
Thats why we all have skill points, If you want other damage types get another combat professions, or group up with other players. I've really enjoyed tka, both from PVE and PVP sides of things. I think kinetic damage is fine as is.
TKA is of course my backup combat profession, I have other damage types As I feal the need to utilize them.

99% of PVE is still unarmed for specials, vk's for auto attacks.

Some Ideas are good, I for one like the idea of a set of combat moves would do X amount of total damage as a certain damage type.

For Example
UnarmedStun
UnarmedBlind
UnarmedDizzy
UnarmedHit1
"you hit target for 200 damage (X damage type) for Leaping Chuba Combo"

By multiple damage types I mean, you do a random ap0/ap1 damage of one type from the following list (Unarmedhit1 for making it an attack few TKM's , expert TK's would use)

acid
stun
heat
cold
energy
electricity

The key is to make it completely random, that way there is balance, and no one combo would give the same damage type twice in a row.
That way you have a small chance to damage that 100% kinetic npc/creature and not be overpowered vs 80-90% composite armor in PVP.
just my 2 cents

If an additional damage type means a nerf to balance us out then leave me with kinetic damage.

I'm doing just fine with kinetic damage only and I'm having fun and enjoying myself as a TKM. . . if the choices are no damage type OR damage type with nerf leave the profession alone.

I agree with attimes - if getting this chance gives us yet another nerf, I am against it; esp. after the lastsilent defense nerf that came out which I am still livid about.

I would rather TK's have adamaging bleed shot rather than more damage types.Call me silly, but if I had a vibro knuckler equiped in RL and decked someone in the face with it, I would hope that they would be bleeding heavily. That's just me though............

i think tka is fine but a restraint that stalls opponet like warcry is nice

I have played many professions and I agree TKM needs another damage type. There are some even *normal* mobs with very high kinetic resist and players as well and I'd like to off set this somewhat. When asking for a new damage type for utility, I like to look at the Nightsister Spellweaver and Elder as they are 100% to everything but two damage types. The Spellweaver we can own and the Elder is left to someone else. I think this concept. Therefore I would not want to see us with Energy for example (hard to make sense of it too). I want us to have utility, but not be able to solo basically everything. Currently even Pistolleers, Carbineers, and Rifleman for example with all their damage types cannot hurt a Nightsister Spellweaver with the exception of a DL44 (or is it DH44) which is not that great of a gun. Many special damage type weapons come at a lower damage and slower speed (ie Tangle Pistol *Stun* and Jawa Ion Rifle *Stun*). Whattype of damage, I hope people try to have it make sense like you are. I also hope it will be balanced, in particular to damage output.

First, I don't think Restraint is a real damage type and would like to avoid that. Lets not get mixed up in thinking it is actually a damage type since it is not being used by anything in game. Next although stun damage makes sense, I fear with it we are just begging to get nerfed. We are simply too fast and have too high of damage mods beyond the weapon. We'd even be better at PvP than we are now and that is not going to fly. We're like any melee so have nice damage multipliers, then on top of that, as TKM we get a huge +speed and +damage. No other profession has a direct +damage modifer. This +damage modifer is what means our 40-180 dmg (on average) VKs, which is not a good gun, an awesome weapon capable of dealing out damage with the best of them. Almost any weapon we'd get would deal out awesome damage because we get about +200 damage from our skill tree (I don't have the exact number since not in game). I like the idea of the new weapon being AP0 to help offset that, to keep it as a good weapon and a utility weapon, but not make it overpowered. I would be ok if it were still AP1 if it were a *common* damage type like heat or energy (although those are hard to make sense of).

I honestly cannot decide on a damage type that makes both sense and is not overpowering and allow us too much access to higher level content (as that is what SOE fears). I like the idea of stun, but think it'd make us too powerful in PvP, we rock as is.

I would also like to stay away from the idea of some moves doing the damage type. That is too hard to pull off in the game coding. A new weapon is the easiest (ie faster turn around and less buggy).

Anyways, good thread going here guys and gals. Just some input from me.

how about because most mobs nowadays have atleast SOME resists to kinetic?? nevermind the fact that armor is getting better and better for protecting against kinetic. and how about the fact that we cant do any bleeds? and how about the fact that we have no special dodge or counterattack bonuses like fencers or swordsmen. or how aboutthe fact that because of this we take alot more damage while tanking mobs.

stun would be cool, so would restraint. or how about some AP on vk's ?? youre trying to tell me the difference between using our hands and using a vibrating brass knuckler is that our ham gets eaten faster? we barely hit harder? and cant pierce any armor? pff i think not. brass knuckles would hurt thourhg armor, why dont our vk's? and vk's with DOT damage on them : lol. the dot's are so effing weak its almost pointless to use it.

i doubt we're gonna get acid, energy or heat or anything fancy like that from the devs. we are already powerhouses up close.

the best it think we can hope for is some zero AP stun damage, or restraint like our correspondent said. i think it would be nice if we had weapons that did half one type of damage and half another. something like half stun and half kinetic would be ideal.

im on corbantis and we have an armorsmith that can make composite armor*** with 79% kinetic special resistance (65% effectiveness for the rest). it is not fun fighting someone with a full suit of that on with buffs on top of that. if we had some stun damage attached we'd be able to cut through some of that.

*** special note: that armor i mentioned also has the lowest HAM of any advanced suit of composite i've ever seen. we're talking 260ish mind ham on helmet and 220 body ham on chest.... insanity.