Tailor Archive
Thread: OMG Master Level Items for under 2000 credits
This post is, by request, a direct reply to Javrie’s post at the top of page three. All texts in italics are quotes taken from that post.
this isn't like real life where undercutting and using your math formulas will get you ahead and keep you afloat.
Actually, I suspect that by the pure nature of a computer game being a series of mathematical and predictable calculations that using math formulas is the perfect way to get ahead and stay afloat. In fact, I could probably fine-tune my prices by taking into account the resource quantity that I mine at. But at least we’ve established that the game isn’t like real life. 
Your prices and your profit are outstanding because you choose to have very little overhead.
While my overhead is indeed very low, from what I understand from a few other tailors (Master tailors no less) it is no different when you do have a shop, a vendor and more factories. I mine resources at about 0.65cr per unit, but that’s using personal harvesters. Using the big monsters I understand the cost is more like 0.35cr per unit. As for vendors and such, I’ll come back to that in a bit.
For the other people who really enjoy the aspect of the merchant line. Setting up their virtual little shops, with their little displays and taking care of their fellow MMORPG playing customers. There is an aspect of fun that it involves.
An aspect of fun that’s involved with the tailor game for me is calculating the fairest prices and using those. Another aspect is seeing people happy when they can buy beautiful clothes for a relatively low price. In fact, I played AO for a little while. In the end I left that game for several reasons, one of which being that clothes were priced so ridiculously high. It just wasn’t any fun for me having to gather a small fortune (however easy that might have been) just to buy some underwear.
However, for these people to enjoy this aspect [having shops and vendors] of the game, they have to put out virtual credits for maintenance.
And they get the return for those extra costs ten-fold. They have a beautiful shop (which in and of itself would be reason for me to spend credits, just for my own enjoyment), they have vendors constantly stocked with lots of items, etc. All of this should draw more customers to you. People who enjoy being in your store and who love the selection you have to offer, etc. Your sales will increase, which means that you can distribute your expenses over more items and lower prices. It costs credits to start up and to have, but the return should at least be equal to that.
The overhead for most tailors is almost or equal to 5 credits per resource. That is what you are basing your prices on am I correct?
No, it is not. I’m generally charging more than a 5-credits-per-unit would give me. I base my prices on individual resource costs (one type of resources is more expensive than another) and then add based on complexity, level, factory requirements, popularity, etc. My expenses past harvester maintenance are calculated into the resource costs. In fact, I recently decided to have additional expenses have more of an impact on my prices. This raised the price of fiberplast from 3cr per unit to 4.5cr per unit. But in the end the price increase is almost negligible (cloaks are still at 1000cr).
For me alone I pay 5 credits per unit for wooly hide.
While I don’t pay anything for any of my hides I’ve got the return for wooly hides currently at 10cr. So for every unit of wooly hide used in a schematic I make 10cr profit. And you would make 5cr profit if using my pricing scheme.
From a gaming view where this is for fun, you're making it so that everyone else has to play by your preferred play style. Which is strip down to the bare minimum and have nothing in name but harvesters.
I’d be the last to force anyone to play by my play style. And as I’ve already said it should be perfectly possible to run a good business while charging less. Maybe you just have to play it a little smarter? I don’t know, but it sounds to me that you’re doing something wrong that you can’t charge as little as some other tailors and I are charging.
When you start selling your wares for that amount of money other players will expect it of all the master tailors.
Then explain to them where your prices come from. Explain how your shop and vendors cost so much, and your sales are so low, that you have to charge that just to stay afloat. They might be sympathetic and give you a big tip. Or maybe you’re just charging because people are willing to pay it, in which case can you blame them for not wanting to pay it anymore? Whatever the reason is?
they are taking advantage of you because they know that master quality anything should be worth more
If it is true that they indeed ‘know’ that the items are worth what you’re charging, then you should have no problem explaining to them why you’re charging it. Personally I ‘know’ they’re worth much less (in credits) and I charge accordingly.
As for the vendors. … The many pages long post concerning it many people asked for a percentage cost based on the item sold, not the overall amount or cost inside the vendor.
Whether it is a percentage of the price of the item sold or a percentage of the total prices on the vendor, lower prices will still greatly decrease your cost of maintaining the vendor.
So to use the vendors as a basis to stay low cost is not a valid one until we know more.
And neither is it a basis for maintaining high cost, because it will change. Similarly with factory redeeding. I’ve seen several posts about how people have such high expenses because they keep needing to redeed their factories. Does that mean that now that those costs are removed (until the bug is fixed) all prices will drop? If you’re clever at it and re-deed you factory just before you log off your maintenance costs for it will be greatly reduced.
If you want to be cheapest, be the cheapest within a range that doesn't totally destroy the others.
I am. From all that I’ve heard I’ve learned one thing, people with high prices are still selling like crazy. And my volume of sales is nowhere near enough to put much of a dent in the sales of the hundreds of other tailors on the server. In fact, I’d sooner say that they’re destroying the game for me by power-grinding their way to Master and taking all my potential customers from me before I could set up a customer base. But I’m not complaining, I’m still having fun.
Be curteous to your fellow Players, as curteous as you are to your Customer Players.
I feel that I’m courteous to everyone. But that doesn’t mean I have to agree with what others are charging.
Be the cheapest but be within an acceptable range. 2.5k and 10k are not acceptable ranges.
Well, that’s a bit the point, isn’t it? What is an acceptable range. Clearly your views and mine don’t mesh there. From my point of view you’re outside the acceptable range at the top end. Why don’t you lower your prices to come within the acceptable range? You can be at the most expensive within the acceptable range. See how that doesn’t work?
I suspect the game isn't very fun for you at the moment either. You'd probably enjoy it more with cooperation.
Now that’s almost insulting. I’m having loads of fun in the game (and outside of it too for that matter) at the moment. And I’ve got plenty of cooperation, both with other tailors (on a small scale, I don’t think any of them dislike me and I’d wager to say a few even like me) and with my friends and the PA. I’m cooperating with just about every player I come across and the only place we’re having any real price wars are right here on the forums.
I’d sooner say that you’re not having fun. Does seeing other people be successful take away from your enjoyment of the game? For me I must say that seeing everyone reach master months before I’ll even get close is discouraging. But I’m still having fun. Are you?
- A. Kimusume
I would like to address the concept of "fair prices" raised above. Fairness seems completely arbitrary to me. Wouldn't it be fairer to just charge people the cost of the item, with NO profit included? This would seem especially true if you derive no joy from amassing filthly lucre (I admit I do like having money... some day in the far future maybe a Tailor could have a starship or something), and you just want people to have beautiful clothes.
Indeed, if your PA is willing to subsidise you, it would be possible to sell clothes *below* cost.
I continue to trust in the Invisible Hand of the Market (at least in SWG) and I continue to believe that what is "fair" is whatever someone will pay for it. If you won't pay 12K for an exotic leotard from me, you have absolute freedom to get it for 6K elsewhere (as low as I've heard it being sold on Eclipse). I have no problem with that.
You know, I have taken a player's very last credit for a suit of clothing on more than one occasion. How does that make me feel?
FANTASTIC! 
It is such an incredible feeling of pride in my craft when somebody wants my goods so much they empty their bank account for me. That's not a person who praises you to your face and then turns around and sells your cheap creations at a mark-up. That's a person who honestly and sincerely values what you can do for them and is willing to pay the price to demonstrate it. If somebody convinces me that they really are on the verge of bankruptcy, I sometimes lower my prices just enough to walk away with their last credit.
Besides, even my highest-priced creation can be had for less than an hour's worth of running missions. I give them what they desire, and take from them nothing that cannot be easily replaced. If you want to accuse me of gouging, I shall be ever so ashamed and contrite all the way to the bank.
Armani does not bicker with K-Mart. You may go now.
Just to clarify in case anyone saw or bought some of my master items off the bazaar. I was moving shop and had to clear out inventory. Sort of a liquidation sale if you will. I put about a dozen items on there and they sold from clear across the galaxy and of course people /tell me wanting more but I hit them with the reality that it was a one time deal and actually still made a couple extra customers due to that. I posted the high end items with a message saying it was ONE TIME ONLY. I hope that's the only time I have to pack up and blow out my inventory .
So just letting everyone know I'm not dropping prices to rockbottom to beat anyone out. Just something that had to be done.
To: A.Kimusume
For all others this is one dang long post, and I'm really sorry for that cause well, that's just me...and I'm not gonna apologize for it...it's me I tell ya. If ya wanna read sure, feel free, if you don't you ain't missin much, but this post is intended for A.Kimusume.
Wow! That was almost a personal assault. I'm still smarting from it to be honest.
For one, you don't even know what my prices are! I never have posted them in these forums. I am on the low end within an acceptable reason of the others, I always have been, because believe it or not, the suggestion that I made to you, I follow myself. I charge the low end of the scale to still be able to give my customers something magnificentwithin a reasonable cost. Yet, to make it fair and game fun friendly for my fellow tailors I still charge a reasonable (I know this is subjective,reasonable by my terms)amount that is within the other's range.
I turn a profit now, but I still do custom orders which at times means the time I take with each customer I may make four sets of clothing in one night. Tonight for example, I made two outfits for a friend of mine. I went through many different shades and variations to get him what he wanted. All in all, it took an entire hour to get two outfits, and at the end he asked if he could pay me tomorrow. lolif it was anyone else besides him,I would have said no, I'd hold the outfits until tomorrow.But, just because he is a friend it doesn't mean that I don't spend the same kind of time with each person that gives me an email, a /tell, or walks in my door. I guess I'm just not as time efficient. I spend a lot of time talking with customers, joking with people in my shop, and answering questions from every subject you can think of. I don't grind out for my vendor it's often lacking due to time restraints. I don't rake in the same amount of cash as others do, mostly of my own doing. I'm not saying that to grief, I'm saying that to set the boundries of how you may attack me with justification. I was fired upon many times in your post, as if I was lumped in generically with others who charge the high end of the scale and make a ton of money. Think about that, and think about how you blindly attacked me. I'm telling you, I'm a person behind this keyboard as well. My post to you was polite, outlined nicely, and I believe had something to offer in a constructive way. I truly do not believe I deserved that kind of treatment.
Oh...and btw...you charge more for cloaks than I do...
Two, I sent you a private IM becauseI figured the drama on these boards were enough for you. I was trying to ask you politely what you thought of my post in a manner that didn't put you back in the firing line. I was mistaken, obviously from the tone of your post youthought it was a covert personal attack on you which it was not in any way shape or form. I was trying to extend you the curtsey of taking time to answer my public post in a manner that would be more comfortable for you. I truly believed I had valid points to consider. Thank you for considering them. Your answers of course differ from mine, and I have no further quarrel with you.
Three, you don't affect me. (stating that as a fact, not as sarcasm or childish nya nya nya nya nya) You aren't on my server. The people who are on my server I'm trying to contact to make certain everything between all of us is within an acceptable good will state. I play odd hours so this is difficult. However, you don't directly affect me. Though you do affect me in that most all the servers will have their individual economies, however, as a whole, the prices aren't thatmuch different from server to server. I suppose I should never have stuck my nose into that post, but too late for that now. I thought, I had something to contribute to it that would be a way for you to look at things from a different point of view. Everyone else threw in business, supply/demand, cost per blah blah blah, and I thought I had a different view point, which really for me, if you were on my server, it would be very difficult to compete with you, and I outlined exactly how you would affect me. Again, I apologize for even saying anything. It was a public forum, but I guess some things are betterleft untouched.
Four, I never meant to insult you by saying you weren't having fun. I had just imagined, incorrectly, from the response on this forum that you would be getting the same type of response on your server. I can't imagine being in a price war where people are calling you an undercutter and a "dirty" (not that anyone has said that directly that I know of, but that is the overall connotation of it) player that it wouldn't be enjoyable at all. When I said cooperation I was suggesting cooperating with your fellow tailors. Instead of fighting with them. I wasn't saying or even suggesting you were uncooperative in every aspect of the game. As I've said, I'm not even on your server, I don't know you. What I judged by was what kind of line of fire you got in these forums. I figured it would be more chill and relaxing for you if you cooperated with them. That was all I was suggesting. If I had any idea that it would have been construed as so insulting I would have taken more time with the entire post. I guess I should have taken more time with the entire post, but honestly, I didn't think it was rude. However, I can't look objectively at it, maybe someone else could enlighten me, and no you can't look objectively at it either. Anyway, I'm not trying to get a referee on this, I'm just saying, that my intent was never to be insulting, and I'm sorry that you took it that way.
I will say, that last part is where it cut the deepest. I guess it did for you as well. For that I apologize, I should have realized that you were being attacked on all sides and I should have made my post more gentle with deeper sympathy and gentle empathy. (again not meant to be sarcastic, I talk like this in rl, yeah, I'm weird) However, for me, this last part...you had toyed with cutting me little by little, but then you drove the proverbial knife deeply, and yes, you did hit the heart. I'm tellin ya, there's a real person at the end of this keyboard, and my intention in my first post was never malice towards you, but I distinctly felt deep malice from you.
Five, I played AO extensively. For me it was a different situation. I worked really hard for the credits to get every piece of clothing in the Miir shop that I wanted. Which is prettyfunny in an ironic waybecause my lvl 156 Trader couldn't even wear the stuff now. She is too fully buffed into her armor and weapon that to take all of that off to put on a pair of underwear she'd never get into her fighting equipment again. Duh...I just derailed...what was my original point? Oh yes, when I first saw those shops. I was like wow! I gotta have those. And I did. Other people were saving up for uber Dragon chest armor, but I was saving up for the clothing in Miir. It was a sense of accomplishment and pride to have all the clothing in that game, because not everyone did because the prices were so high. It wasn't for everyone, not everyone wanted clothing it wasn't as necessary as it is in this game where armor isn't as affective all the time for all situations. Yet, you'd never see a lvl 25 n00b running around Athen in a bikini unless they were a twink and even then if they were a twink they were in carb or CAS armor. Well, anyway, my point is, that is something we can constructively disagree on. For some people, they want what they can have right away, but then what? End of game for SWGs. Some people (some people meaning some people NOT me incase you thought that) are getting a little bored with the game already. They've used their skill points, they've traveled, they have the best armor, they have the best weapons, they have the biggest houses, and well...they have the best clothes. There's really nothing left to work for. To feel proud of.
Let me make a new paragraph here...um...I was never good at paragraphs...just a mountain of run on sentences is my life's story...anyway
I read a thread that was on my board when my server's first master tailor came into play. Someone was gasping at her prices. And well the thread was similar to this one in many ways. Anyway to make a long story short. There was one profound post by a dancer who had said, in summation, that she worked her butt off running delivery missions. She made just enough for the leotard she wanted and the ticket to get there because this tailor's shop was off planet from her home, and she ran a distance, and you know how few hps a true entertainer has, it wasa risk for her to run in the open unescorted. She said it was all worth it because she felt so proud that she earned it, that she had it, that it was the work she accomplished to get it. Anyway, we will differ on this point. To come back to my original thought, AO was a blast for me for many reasons (can anyone say drain? hehe), but one of them was the moments whenI had enough money and could buy a new piece of clothing at Miir. It was great! A true moment of game accomplishment. Just my personal story. No need to attack me on my stupidity of finding that fun, and I'm not saying you have to join my ways (come...join the darkside...). Nono, not at all.
Overall, there is no need to treat me as an enemy with such little respect. I've said my piece, you've said yours. I DO understand where you are coming from, but I try to see ALL sides of a situation. And in this situation I can see it from Customer, Low Seller (euphemism for undercutter because I don't want to offend you more than I inadvertently have), and fellow Tailor on your server. There is a happy medium. I truly believe it. However, I can't force you to try to see it, or even force you to want to acknowledge there may be a healthy compromise. I've outlined itbrieflyin my first post, but honestly, I don't even know if you read it objectively. I doubt you did from the assault you gave me. Like I said before, you are not on my server, and I'm taking care of my relations ingame on my server.
Oh...and yes I am indeed having fun playing the game. At times it seems like work when I feel pressured to fill orders or see customers when all I'd really like to do is play hookey and shoot some ugly shaupauts. But that is of my own choosing and my own making. Yes, I wouldn't be playing this game if I wasn't having fun, and in turn, I try to make the gaming experience fun for everyone else. Friends, Customers, Fellow Tailors, and all the rest who don't fall intoany of these categories.
I'm sorry you feel as though there is an enemy in me. There never was and never will be. I do feel I am owed an apology for the overall meanness of your post. Objectively, not at the beginning. I read it at first, gave a few, "ok, I'll give her that she has a valid point and rebuttle,"but then towards the end there...claws were starting to dig in...then a little more... and then by the end end...oh boy...I was knocked on my a$$. I thought we were having an exchangeand then bam slammed into spiked and thorny wall. However, I fully accept that you don't know who I am, don't know what my intentions are, were already flamed by many, and felt that my getting in contact with you privately was another form of harassment. I fully understand this, yet I still would like a sincere apology from you. However, I'mthe kind ofperson that truly accepts a sincere and heartfelt apology if one is offered.
As for me, if I haven't apologized sincerely enough in this post. Let me say again. In no way, shape or form was I, or did I, nor will I ever intend malice towards you. I am very truly sorry for not taking the time to word my post more carefully and taken into account the severe treatment you had been given. I should have innately understood that you would be understandably defensive and therefore should have taken the time to treat you more extra gently in my post to you. I apologize for invading your personal space by sending you a private message through this board. (for those of you who actually read this, trust me it was a BRIEF private message) I honestly, went about it with good intentions, trying to spare you more grief from these boards, but at the same time I guess I went at it selfishly, I really wanted to have that discussion with you because I thought I had valid points. Also, not to kiss up, but I read your other posts, and posts not regarding pricing, and I thought they were all well thought out, constructive, and of interest. I was actually looking forward to your response. LOL but if I had known what I was in for.... ...yeah....I coulda waited....like...um...forever... hehe
No hard feelings.
Peace,
Javrie
Oh P.S. I further apologize for the length of this post even though I said I wouldn't. Yeah...really sorry on that. I have extra blabby fingers... 
What I don't understand is, how can I put people out of business? I can run perfectly well at these prices, others can run perfectly well at these prices, so why can't you? What is it about your expenses that makes cutting your prices such a treat to your ability to operate as a tailor?
But I think I have an idea. You said you wanted a good gun. But may I ask, why do you want a gun? What reason would a pure tailor, who has nothing to do but put clothes together, have for having a gun? If it is just as a shiny toy, something to show off to your friends or because you like the idea of having a gun, then it is a luxury and should, in my opinion, come out of your profits.
If it is as I suspect and you're also a bit of a marksman, like to go hunting together with your friends maybe, then that gun should be paid for by your marksman profession. That means either doing destroy missions and such or selling harvested resources. Each profession should pay for itself and I don't think you should use one profession to support another.
So what else then… you mentioned vehicles? Why do you want a vehicle? Because it's a nice and shiny thing to show off to your friends "hey look at my brand new, metallic blue speeder"? Then again it should come out of your profits. But if it is to make it easier to get from one place to another then that can come out of your travel cost. And perhaps you'll be able to reach new markets with your speeder, which previously were too far to walk to (and no shuttle near).
Same for spaceships. I imagine that there'll be space stations that you'll be able to reach with them where again you can increase your sales. And other than that it's either a luxury or something to support another profession (like pilot?). And for both vehicles and spaceships goes that you're saving money for something that doesn't even exist yet… something that's months away. The game has only been up for what, two months? There's more than enough time to build your capitol before that and after that as well.
I'm not one to begrudge anyone profits, but that's just it. I am making profits. And so is, as far as I can see, everyone who charges prices near what I do. You talked about maintaining a PA hall… well a little ago my friends and I bought our PA hall which I paid more than my share of. Our leader insists on paying the upkeep, but other than that it's more that I'm subsidizing my PA as my income is higher than most of them (though we've begun setting up a plan for selling resources, which has by far the biggest return for the least effort, including the survey missions).
As to how I get my resources? I've got one personal harvester for fiberplast, one for steel, one for wind energy and one 'floating' one. This last one gathers the resources we tailors need but never that much of. Right now it's running for polymer because the supply I got six weeks ago is running a bit dry. Other times it gathers crystalline gemstone, copper, or even ore at one point for an architect friend (easily paying for all of it myself). Hides my friends gather for me (they go hunting… and then its little effort to harvest a few hides as well for me. And even if they didn't I more than account for buying them) and I constantly keep an eye out for the rare resources we have so that I can make a small supply.
The trick is, I think, to realize that you don't need all resources constantly. If I don't sell many clothes anymore I wouldn't need any fiberplast either and would shut down that harvester. Always place them on at least 80% (except for wind, there 50%+ is what I aim for). This way you never pay more than 0.65cr per unit… and that with personal harvesters. It's far less with the big ones if your resources requirements are bigger.
But I still think people are charging for their grinding. It takes massive amounts of resources to grind up to master (at the rate I collect resources I have at least seven weeks to go). But grinding up has already got you a huge edge over your competition, increasing your sales. Do you really need to charge your grinding cost back to your customers?
And yes, I've had customers give me their last penny as well. At one time a newbie gave me all his 250cr for a completely new outfit (which I could have easily sold for over 1k). I gave him the money back saying "it's a welcome to Chilastra gift".
I know it's easy enough to run a few missions to pay for 10k items… but does it really matter whether they spend an hour to pay for your clothes or ten minutes to pay for mine? With me at least they have 50 minutes to talk to me, have some fun, show off their new clothes, etc.
- A. Kimusume
I think I love you Ayane.
You so eloquently describe the issues that I cant quite get these guys to understand.
Javrie, hon, this might sound like an echo of what you posted to me, but in no way, shape or form did I intent to hurt you. I read my post to you back, just to be certain, and I must say that I’m having difficulty seeing what it is that I said that hurt you. In fact, I thought I was rather civil. As the “”s here and there should testify I was in rather good spirits.
The only point that really hurt was you saying I wasn’t having fun. I thought “who does this Javrie character think he is, assuming I’m not having fun?” Other parts of your post too could be interpreted as insults, for you make it sound like I’m intentionally hurting other tailors on my server, I’m willfully trying to wreck the economy, and I have no idea about price and costs. But I’m used to quite a bit, so that didn’t faze me at all.
In fact, you did have good points and your post is one of the first in this discussion that gave me cause to think. Maybe I might have been a little overexcited in finding the answers to some of the questions you posed and as such my post came off as more assaulting than intended. But in a way that’s how I often handle arguments, I take their points and put them under fire to see if they hold up. Maybe an aggressive form of discussing, for I can also see taking common ground and working out from that.
And no, I didn’t see you contacting me personally as some covert attack, far from it. I was quite happy, for it was the first private message I’ve ever gotten on these boards. But I decided to post my reply here anyway, because I thought that would help the discussion in general. People could read my replies and pick them apart or strengthen them (depending on their views). I felt a private discussion wouldn’t really help anyone.
Believe it or not, but I actually like discussions like this (or I wouldn’t be here still, writing such long posts). Though I can do without the insults some feel they need to throw in a heated discussion can feel very exhilarating. Almost like a game in itself.
In the end I doubt any will raise or lower their prices much. Though following this discussion I have made general expenses have more of an impact on my prices, raising them. At the moment my most expensive Master Tailor item (when I get there) looks like it’ll be 3200 credits (Grand healer’s Robe I think it is), where it used to be 2400. The price of my cloaks remained the same because I slightly decreased the markup for it.
It’s interesting that you mention me not knowing your prices, because I get the feeling that you don’t know mine very well either (judging from your “you charge more for cloaks than I do” comment). Mine are available for viewing because I released a pricing spreadsheet with my prices still in it a while ago (new version with many added features should be due soon). Only once has a tailor contacted me ingame about me prices being so very low and we launched in an argument similar to the one here. In the end it turned out his highest-priced items were only about 1k about mine. Never heard from him since.
Anyway, my deepest apologies if my post came across as a personal attack, it wasn’t meant as such. And I hope you’ll remain in the discussion, because you do make some good points.
Oh, and feel free to call me Ayane.
- A. Kimusume
Fair enough Ayane feel free to call me a SHE 
and thanks, apology accepted and very appreciated.
Armani does not bicker with K-Mart. You may go now.
HA. Don't flatter yourself. Your basic Robe of Honor is no different from someone else's. And I will go. I'll go to people like Ophi who are charging reasonable prices. And drop off a couple thousand hides to boot.
Um, I wouldn't pay 60k for a doctor's robe (grand healer's robe?) if I was you either. 60k????