Tailor Archive
Thread: OMG Master Level Items for under 2000 credits
"It should be about what is a fair price, not what someone that doesnt know any better and is used to paying inflated prices will pay."
Your "fair prices" to customers who "know better" just shows that you don't know better. What's going to happen when your sales fall and someone who's charging more sales fall. When things slow down and you're selling 1 items a day instead of 5 items a minute.
The people who are "being fair" and "having fun" and "not greedy" will get completely screwed because they have no buffer, nowhere to fall back on. When devs tripple the maintance rate on vendors and harvesters to add in more money sinks you'll be stuck.
The people who have been charging what the markert will bear quite easily (with 16k available missions why shouldn't master level items be 16k! That's a single mission!) will have a buffer of cash that can keep them going. They'll be pissed when their harvesters and vendors cost more, but they won't be stranded unable to pay for them because they'd given away all their profit in some misguided martyristic feel-good pricing schemes. They'll be able to continue selling items and gathering resources through the slow times. They'll be able to still get the customers what they want.
A "fair price" needs to take into account everythingthat arecosts to you, resources, vendors, factories, training, personal time, effort of dealing with 10 tells a minute, backlogs of email, harvesters, resource researching, vendor restocking, shop organization, lost time for anything else and other things. It should also take into account that eventually you won't be as successfull as this and you'll need that buffer, so might as well get it now when everyone has access to those 16k missions.
BrainBlood wrote:
It should be about what is a fair price, not what someone that doesnt know any better and is used to paying inflated prices will pay.
If somebody doesn't buy into a free-market economy, there's no way to convince them. Hell, I have strong reservations about capitalism in real life.
So if somebody wants to play Salvation Army to my Armani, let 'em. The wholesalers will descend like locusts sooner or later on anybody selling under market value.
It would seem that we each have our market.
You have the high end, high priced, high quality items
Maybe I should start advertising "Rarlossks Cheap Master Tailor clothes!, A cheap price for cheap stuff!"
And I have never said that anyone is getting ripped off, if your customers will pay that much, thats great for you, but I will never sell non-skill enhanced clothing for anywhere near 10k, much less 15k.
P.S. So whats up with that Tarquinas tailor meeting? I am sooo ready. Well I'll be ready after work.
"I am not disputing your right to set your own prices. Hell, sell Master items for 1 credit for all I care... just don't tell me I'm ripping people off when they voluntarily pay what I ask."
Agree 100%.
"" Ri'a Ocoli
"" Novice Tailor, Kettemoor
"" Clothes by Ri'a is 1km north of Keren at 1145, 3800
"" .. my door is always open, stop by any time!
I really don't get this "I work out how much my materials cost me and add a bit more" stuff.
Hides cost nothing at all, except for a bit of wear and tear on the gun. People don't go out gathering hides and give them away for free. Credits cost nothing, except for a bit of wear and tear on the gun. People don't do missions and then give away the credits.
They spent time to get those things. That's the cost. I believe an hour of my time asa master tailor is worth as much as an hour of a gun-smith's time, an armour-smith's time, or a bad-ass "let's go to Endor and do missions" person's time. Seems fair to me.
It also works out pretty well for everyone, because it means the Endor guy can afford my dusters and then I can afford the weapon-smith's gun. Which also seems fair to me.
Of course we are actually worse off than weapon-smiths and high-level fighters and that's the way tailors are. No crying or complaining. But if life really was fair, those of us who work as hard as anyone else and have as much sense and inter-personal skills as anyone else would be as able to buy new toys as anyone else. Large house, cool furniture, bad-ass gun etc. That would be *fair*, not "this guy made 50,000 credits in the past hour but I'm going to spend an hour dressing him up for a proft of 1000".
Yeah that would be terrible if every Master Tailor came to my shop everyday and bought me out. They wouldnt get much, since most of my sales are face to face.
If I didnt know better I would think all of these other Master Tailors fear me, theres really nothing here to fear. I dont stock more than maybe 100 items on my one vendor, and as I said before most of my sales are face to face, which is time consuming, but satisfying when I have provided exactly what someone wanted.
And I cant help if people are going off-planet bragging about me. What can I say, I'm a really nice guy.
And I make a lot more than 500-1000c per item selling at 5-6k, when that item barely costs me 500c to make in the first place.
Zafrod wrote:As far as people like Snowleeper, who never fails to amaze me by saying something even more aggrivating every time he posts, well, there's not much we can do about it. He'd like us to believe that he's just another cog in a realistic economy simulation. Of course, this doesn't take into effect the very unrealistic ways he gets his resources or finances his operation. In reality, he's just another form of griefer. Or, as my fiance put it, "Some people just get off by s---ing in everybody else's ice cream sundae." He wants to defend himself by saying he's not breaking any rules, which is in part true. Certainly he's doing nothing for which he could be banned, at least that we know of. But how brilliant of a business plan is it to sell something for 2000 credits that would sell equally well at 5000, and still be well under any reasonable tailor's price? It's not. Oh, sure, he may be "turning a profit", but surely he'd turn an even bigger profit by selling that item for at least half it's actual market value. But that just wouldn't irritate everyone else enough to please Mr. Leeper. And I'm singling him out only because he's the self-righteous, vocal culprit on my server... there are others on other servers, and I'm sure they're no different. And while they may not be breaking any written rules, I'd call failure to be a decent human being a pretty notable violation.
Amazing how when someone can't present a logical arguement, they rely on an adhomium attacks. OMG, Snow is a horrible human being because he won't march in lock step with me. OMG, it's horrible. He is a bad, bad person. Well that's your *opinion*, but doesn't change the *fact* my resources come from harvesters for less than 1 credit per and my pricing is reflective of that. Don't like it? Tough.
Zafrod wrote:So now we have players signing on, running 4 newbie missions, and affording grand healer's robes. Well, yeah, you folks sure did a number to the economy. Congrats. While the rest of us were giving people something to work towards while selling our very best items at 5% of what master architects sell their ultimate wares for, you've taken it upon yourselves to bring that down around everyone's ears.
I don't care if you've been playing the game 5 mins or 5 months. My goal is to let people look like they want. I could care less if someone ran 4 missions and has a Grand Healer robe. It's not my place, nor is it yours, to decide who can wear what. If they have the money I want, they can buy it.
Zafrod wrote:SOE did us the favor of allowing the players to control the economy, and you've proven soundly that we're not up to the challenge because a few of us are too busy tearing things down to fill that little void left when dad didn't pay us enough attention. Ah, yes, you certainly are powerful, irritating many people around the world. Even bad attention feels good when you don't know any better.
The most ironic part is, I joined Starsider on day one expecting it to be a more mature server. Evidently, I was an idiot.
If the best you can come up with about me is personal attacks, I'll agree with your last sentence if you change the word "was" to "am".
Ghartan wrote:Well as a tailor is that is just up the road from Snowleeper (so to speak), I am not worried one bit by the pricing he does.
Good example why happened last night.
I was helping a customer in my shop with a custom order (he flew from Dathomir just to meet me) ... when another customer came in who was a regular. The new customer though started asking why I was charging so much for my Fleshwraps (10k) when the *other* tailor was charging so little (5k she said). I responded that that is the price I need to charge to maintain a big inventory here.
She huffed a bit ... but then proceeded to buy about 15-20k worth of clothing from me (non-Master items). I asked why she didn't buy them from the other tailor and she responded that he didn't have the selection I did.
Interesting story, but I doubt it was anything to do with me. I don't charge that much for a fleshwrap and I do sales face to face or over the bazaar. There are about 4 tailors in our little "neighborhood." She probably went to one of them. My vendor is currently only used to sell synthacloth and RFP to armorsmiths that have pre-arranged a sale.
Ghartan wrote:So ... as long as I can continue to have loyal customers flying in from far flung planets and have folks that still like having a large selection to choose from, I don't worry a bit about him.
Good for you. You do your thing, and I'll do mine.
Interesting concept that we should charge what people pay for an item because otherwise we’d be stealing from our own pocket. Works great in the real world I bet (I’m not certain, because economics was never my strong suit). But, hmmmm, let me think here. In this game that means that you’re stealing from your own pocket too. Why? Because you’re making clothes. If instead you’d sell resources or better yet just ran a few missions you’d have much less cost (if any) and much greater income. I think I can make about 15k in an hour running delivery missions… even more with the survey missions (which likely will get toned down soon, hence the delivery mission example).
Of course it doesn’t work like that. You don’t run missions because you’re having more fun making clothes. And the same goes for me; I’m having fun making clothes too. Furthermore you, I assume, have fun seeing your bank account rise. I don’t see any fun there, personally. Money means very little to me. I instead have fun trying to figure out prices from my cost and making people happy by making beautiful clothes for them. If I sold for the prices some of you are suggesting I would feel cheap and dirty because I know what it costs me to make those items.
I’ve also heard that it’s a good idea to build up a buffer for bad times. But I don’t see the reasoning behind that. Next to the fact that I’ll never go out of business because I could (and I stress could) just run missions to cover expenses for a while there is the fact that my expenses will be far lower during bad times. Why would I keep my harvesters running if I don’t need the resources from them? Why would I leave my factory standing to slurp up 1500cr every day if I don’t use it? I can live quite comfortably without selling much clothes at all.
Another argument I’ve heard is “what if the devs increase maintenance costs?” Well, that’s easy, I’ll raise my prices. Because that increase I can justify to my customers. “Sorry for the higher prices, but the maintenance costs went up”. I could even refer them to the update notes if need be. But raising prices “just because” is something I cannot justify to my customers or to myself.
Then there is the argument of charging people for time expended. Well, I pay $13 every month to spend my time here. I’m doing this because I think it is fun. I’m making clothes because I think it is fun and I like to make people happy with them. If I were to charge for the time it took to click a few times that would feel like going to an amusement park and demanding your money back because you had to stand in line. If it isn’t fun then don’t do it. What about missions then? Well, to be honest, missions aren’t fun. Not to me anyway. I do them (if I do them) purely to make money or to spend time with my friends.
But all in all I don’t understand what the problem is. I’m having fun playing this game, and from what I understand you have too. Repeatedly I hear how I should charge higher because people are paying it, how many customers you still have despite your high prices and how you’re having trouble keeping up with orders. So if your sales are so good then what does it matter to you what I charge? I can promise you that I don’t have nearly as much sales as you do, not because of my prices (I think my low prices actually make that I have sales at all) but because of the way that I play a tailor.
Now, the only argument I’ve heard there is “but a customer seeing your prices and might come to me complaining that my prices are so high”. Well, explain to them then how you come to your prices. I bet they’d love to hear that you’re charging as much because your customers are paying it. If instead they ask me I can give them a very detailed description of where my prices come from. I feel secure in my prices in front of my customers. Do you?
By request I’ll also answer Javrie’s post on page 3 in a little (I hope… if work doesn’t swamp me too much).
- A. Kimusume
I've been avoiding posting in this rather amusing thread for quite some time now, but I have to admit some of the rationalizations going on are getting a little ridiculous.
Only a master dancer deserves to wear master tailor clothing? If a BH comes to you wanting to buy a fleshwrap for a dancer he likes, do you refuse unless he brings her to you to see her title first?
Can't afford your overhead without charging outrageous prices? Got news for ya folks, my prices come in well below all your "right" "fair" "intelligent" prices. I maintain a large and 2 small houses, 2 factories, 3 medium harvestors, 2 personals, and go halves on 2 solars (combat char husband's lots and mine). I have yet to come up short on maintenance, and even if my vendors were charging the new and improved maintenance fees posted the other day, I'd still have profit to show every day.
You "deserve" to be compensated for all the grinding? Jeez I guess the combat guys should be getting paid for everything they kill without taking a mission and the dancers should be paid by the hour for afk dancing.
The reality is this, the first few to master set a price that matched the effort required to keep up with non-stop crafting as word spread there was finally a master. The people sitting there crafting for an hour, never wearing a title, and doing something else all day aren't "earning" that 15k per item, they're leeching off the success of the first tailors and putting in much less effort for the same rewards. Everytime another master tailor enters the world, the workload of all the others decreases. It may not be instantly visible, but it's happening. If you are still having to put in as much "unfun" work today as you did a week ago or two weeks ago, it's you that is doing something wrong, whether you are in the wrong profession or just don't have the planning done correctly to make it easier on yourself.
Charging any less is stupid? Where's the line between good and stupid? 5 credits less than you? 100? 1000? If it has nothing to do with the cost of what's going in, seems determining who's pricing is stupid is awfully subjective. Who should we go to for the final ruling on all of our stupidity or lack of it?
I'll respect the people that flat out say they'll make as much profit as they want because they can, at least they're honest. All I ask in return is respect me for making as much profit as I want even if it's less than yours. It's the ones trying to justify pricing with unrealistic reasons that make me laugh.
I'm honestly not trying to flame, I just want people to think. Are you charging these "agreed" prices because you really think it's fair to make a profit 10 times over the cost of the item, or are you doing it because you don't want to be the next SnowLeeper being torn to shreds on this board every time the subject comes up? When that dancer comes to your shop, trades you every credit in her inventory and then tips you what's left in her bank just for the privledge of wearing something you clicked a mouse a few times to make, do you really feel good about it or are you too busy mentally adding the credits in your inventory to the credits in your bank to give her a second thought?
So I spose you want to know how badly I'm undercutting you and out to get you all. I'll warn you, my prices are pretty "bad", "stupid", and "evil". I don't expect my customers to pay me for having fun hunting on Endor and Dantooine for hides. Never expect them to pay forwhat little time I spent grinding. The countless hours setting up, relocating, upgrading and reorganizing my shops, not their problem. Consultations don't really seem to be a reason to charge extra, that is why I took up tailoring and hit master for a second time. I don't even expect them to pay me for the 80+ hours I've spent on my website. Because I had fun doing all of it. If I hadn't I wouldn't have done any of it. And the thing is, I'm not out to get any of you. If someone really wants to drop 3k credits and 4 shuttle trips to come buy my inventory out, more power to em if that means that much to them. Hey, I might even actually helpa struggling merchant along the way, what a novel idea helping someone besides myself.
So here it is - go check it out and flame away. I'm sick of being afraid to post it because god forbid someone on another server who knows nothing about me is going to take it as a reason to vent all their frustrations. And if you happen to be another master on Chilastra, trust me, your customers aren't going to drop the money to fly all the way to Talus for my stuff over yours unless you're really treating them like crap.
Cottage Industries http://ophi.net
Ophi Cometfire, Chilastra
"But all in all I don’t understand what the problem is."
There's no real problem. You can charge anything youlike. You can do anything you like. It's all cool. Run around naked, sell fleshwraps at 50 credits, run a little tea-house on Corellia, whatever. I'll come visit the tea-house, maybe your image designer friend can do my hair. Anyone can do what they want, I think we all understand that.
If you really don't know why you are getting such a strong reaction on these boards, however, It'll explain it.
i) People are worried you are going to put them out of business, or force them to drastically reduce their prices. In fact, you won't because you're probably not on their server (you're on mine though!) and you don't sell in large numbers so you don't even affect the market on Chilastra. But because you're vocal on these boards you end up being seen as the embodiement of all undercutters everywhere.
ii) I don't know if you realise you are doing it, but when you make comments about "I would feel dirty if I charged that much" and "I don't see why I should overcharge" (not exact quotes but I think that's pretty much the sort of stuff you have said) you sound as if you are calling other people mean and dirty, and accusing them of overcharging. That's bound to get a strong reaction.
You also seem to suggest that people on this board are obsessed with seeing their bank balance rise, as if they were some sort of scrooge. That may not be what you mean, but that's how it comes across. That's bound to evoke a reaction.
What you do effects other people. Actually it doesn't, because you don't sell much. But what undercutters do, in general, effects other tailors.
Most tailors don't want to be poor. They want to have enough money to be able to buy a nice gun without thinking "**edit** I need to go and run 10 missions first". They want toys. A droid, armour, whatever. To be able to travel to Endor (it's expensive to get a ticket). Big house, or at least a medium.Nice furniture. Help their PA mantain the PA hall, which is **edit** expensive. ("Um, sorry guys, I can't afford to contribute my share . . ."). When vehicles come out, they will all want speeders. At least, *I* want a speeder, preferably in metallic blue.
Don't knock people for wanting things. They're no different to your customers
But of course, the people we buy things from don't charge the way you do. They charge based on what their customers think their services are worth. That's right - what the market will allow! How much people will pay! It's not just this board - ever single crafter in the game is an evil gouging person, except you and Snowleeper. Even the architects charge that way, except in their case it tends to result in negative profit.
Charging based on how valuable the customer considers your service to be may or may not be an evil thing to do, but it happens. Now this figure is comprised of two things - how rich the customer is (how much credits are worth to them, in a sense), and how good the service is.
The problem for poor people is that the price doesn't vary from individual to individual. If nine people see a gun - a GOOD GUN look a the stats on that - and it costs 10k and say "cool only 10k for a good gun" and buy it, then the price of that gun will be 10k. If person number ten, let's call him Mr Tailor, comes in and says "**edit** 10 whole k for a good gun I wish I could afford it" then he cannot have the gun. And that makes him sad. Nobody wants him to be sad. And before you say "well why doesn't he sell resources in the bazaar instead, why doesn't he run missions instead", it's because he likes making clothes. But he also wants a good gun. And there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make him a bad person.
People get annoyedat super-low pricers (trying to use a neutral phrase here)not because they are mean and nasty, but because they worry thelow pricerswill stop them ever getting a good gun.
Remember, money comes into the game from missions - oodles of money (I am that tailor on Endor with a good gun - yes I can afford it - and then some of it gets shared out to crafters. Some people think tailors should get a share pretty much in line with other crafters or at least, not *too* much less. They just have to live with the fact you disagree, but I'd suggest you have to live with the fact that they feel what they feel. Don't accuse them of being mean They seem perfectly sensible to me.
Btw, I still don't see how you can get hides, bristley hides, wooly hides, copper, steel, iron, amorphous gemstone, crystalline gemstone, polymer and fiberplast all for those low low prices you claim. Do you have ten harvesters and also spend an hour a day killing banthas? If gathering hides really is your idea of fun and if your number one aim is making people happy then how about having some fun and making me happy by getting me some . . eh? No? **edit**.