Tailor Archive
Thread: [closed]Poll:the new tailored segment for wookiee armor [closed]
Thank you all for voting. I have presented the devs with the concerns of many of you, while adding in that there is also a minority of tailors who are in favor of keeping the schematic. In particular I asked for an explanation of why this was added to the tailoring tree.
On this issue, I think we have to agree to disagree. Some people want itand others don't. As it stands now, those who don't want to make the schematic can simply choose to not do so, and those who want to make the schematic can choose to capitalize on this new market. Only time will tell, when this is pushed to live, whether the system is workable or cumbersome, lucrative or not.
If anything definitive pops up on this issue that I can share I'll let you know, but as it stands, this wookiee item is in our tree. Whether some choose to ignore it is a personal choice.
In the meantime, the voice of both the minority and the majority has been expressed, and it's time to move on to our top five. A lot of good issues have come out of this discussion, such as experimentation and decay, and we should focus our attention on whether to pursue that.
And a reminder: We get passionate about our profession. That's ok. But please take 10 deep breaths and walk around before you post. Devs pop in from time to time, and you may disagree with a design decision, but it's not very productive or polite to insult them. They have a lot on their plate, and are genuinely trying to make the game better for all professions.
n'Jessi, you made a very nice proposal and I don't necessarily disagree, but I'd like to add a few things to think about.
NJ62 wrote:
Draft in support of removal of padding segment to the armorsmith tree (I was sorta rushed so it's rough)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As it stands now on TC, tailors make the component for wookiee armor at field gear 3. Many tailors are unhappy about this development. They feel that their role is to create new and exciting wardrobes, not to churn out components for other professions.
I love making new and exciting outfits just as much as the next tailor, but I also don't mind making money from selling components.
This is an armor component and it has no use in tailored goods
It's a large burden to require a component in armor from tailors that tailors have no need to make for their own items. Simply put, tailors will have no reason to make them. Perhaps, in the future, this component will be used for tailoring, though I honestly don't see how, considering that it has armor stats.
This is no different than any component that artisans make, or thetissues that BE's make.
The Experimentation is more compatible with Armorsmithing than Tailoring
Don't get me wrong, tailors have been asking for experimentation. But on overall durability of goods and decay resistance, not on hams and effectiveness. We aren't armorsmiths. We don't know what to experiment on. Even if we were to gather the good-quality hides, how do we know what sorts of experimentation the armorsmith will want on his product? Once again, the tailor will not be able to use the pre-made components as a source of income because the components may not be experimented to the liking of the armorsmith consumer. If the armorsmith has to tell the tailor exactly what to experiment on, the armorsmith should just be doing the experimenting.
I can understand how something new can bring about these questions for any tailor, but I just don't see them as a reason to not put this schematic in our skill tree. I'll make both ham experimented components and resistence experimented components and see which ones sell better ... just like I had to do with every one of our clothes to see which one sold more often.
Tailors don't like making components and are unlikely to do so
Although the intent is to give tailors business, and foster interdependency, the reality is that many tailors don't like making these items because of the extremely low profit margin (nobody wants to pay a huge markup for components) and the fact that they don't want to waste their own factory time making components for someone else when they can barely keep up with their own component needs. Some tailors feel that they don't want to be pressed into service to other professions: they would prefer to have more unique and creative content added to tailoring rather than creating more of a market for the components that they don't want to make.
I absolutely would prefer more unique and creative content, but I don't mind making components and am anxious to see how these sell for me. I believe many are missing the point that these components will cost more simply because they require high quality resources and good experimentation (and possibly their rarity since not all tailors will make them).
Given the fact that this item requires experimentation and is not used in any tailoring goods, tailors would have even less incentive to make this component.
The new schematic does not create income for low-level tailors, as do other components
In practice, as it stands now, selling components or schematics for components is a way for lower-level tailors to make money (since few people want the lower-level tailored goods) and this takes stress off the masters who are so overburdened by orders that they don't want to make components. However, a demand for this new experimented item will put stress on the masters specifically (because of experimentation points) causing them to be more overworked than they already are.
You are correct that this doesn't help lower-level tailors, but it also doesn't hinder them either. As for master tailors, we have the choice to make them or not. I don't see how this choice overworks anyone.
Tailors will likely make schematics only rather than gathering the resources to create crates of components: therefore this is not a good source of tailor income
Selling these components will not be a good and practical source of income, and tailors will usually make schematics on request (for a nominal fee, if that) rather than make these items for profit. The segments are extremely hide-heavy: tailors normally do not gather much hide, let alone search for hides with good stats (because they are not needed for other tailored goods). Armorsmiths do. A tailor is unlikely to attempt to collect large amounts of the best possible hide in order to make this one low-profit segment for another profession. Tailors will be unwilling to enter this market because of heavy hide costs and at the same time will not appreciate being pressed into service to make schematics (which often people do not expect to have to pay money for).
Many tailors may indeed just provide the schematic, but it's up to them what to charge for it.Arguing against having to find quality resources now maygive the devs the impressions that we don't want anything that would require this, including experimenting ondurabiltiy and condition. (Personally, Ilike not having to worry about quality now for our clothes.)
Armorsmiths and Component Availability
I can't speak for armorsmiths, but I know that if tailors don't want to provide schematics or components, it will be difficult for armorsmiths to obtain these items, causing frustration for them as well.
I don't see thisany different than any other component that's needed by another profession.
Simply, I don't see this addition as hurting tailors, so why argue against it?
Syzygy-Gorath wrote:
My $0.02: Chiana's right. This is a tailor nerf. Why? Not because it would have us making components that are of sole use to another profession, but because it reintroduces experimentation to tailoring. Some people like the idea of tailor experimentation. I don't. We already have to make every one of our end-products by hand, I don't want to have to spend even more time hunting for the 'perfect' resources, spend the money on experimentation tapes, then experiment out each and every item. It would take me more than five times as long as it does now. I see this as the first step in that direction, and it scares the bejezus out of me. (I didn't bother listing tools or station in the above since I already use +14.94 tools and a +42.somethingorother station)
What scares me is the idea that if ordinary clothing has "stats" to it that the quality of the tailor will no longer have much to do with their taste and their knowledge of the clothes and have more and more to do with how high we can make those stats. If that happened, then anyone who is really rich from doing some other profession (or duping credits for that matter) can become a better tailor than I am by buying up the best tools, crafting station, materials and skilltapes and all the work that I put into trying to really do a good job will go completely unrecognized. The only experimentation that I can see working is simple experimenation for durability and perhaps only mined resources should count in the experimenation. There is no way I can afford armorsmith quality hides, and although I can get guild help, I know of several good tailors who can't.
Rizzaka wrote:
Akaara wrote:
It is a tailor nerf. Why should WE make componants for armorsmiths who will then turn around and take our wookiee clients from us? I would rather not be involved in this since it is a major slap in the face to tailors.
LOL seriously how do you see the 'smiths taking customers away from us? we don't make armor or protective gear as it is... sure we offer BE enhanced clothing but thats not armor.
and i reitterate if you don't like it DON"T MAKE IT! don't take something that could be a good thing in the eyes of some tailors away from us. Don't force your opinons on me just because you don't want to craft something.... what if some of us DO? its a two way street... so far all arguments from a tailors perspective on removing this from our skill tree is simply solved by "don't make it and let another tailor worry about it that does want to make it"
where do you see a tailor nerf? they arn't taking anything away from us nor are they reducing our effectivness, if anything its an armorsmith nerf....
My $0.02: Chiana's right. This is a tailor nerf. Why? Not because it would have us making components that are of sole use to another profession, but because it reintroduces experimentation to tailoring. Some people like the idea of tailor experimentation. I don't. We already have to make every one of our end-products by hand, I don't want to have to spend even more time hunting for the 'perfect' resources, spend the money on experimentation tapes, then experiment out each and every item. It would take me more than five times as long as it does now. I see this as the first step in that direction, and it scares the bejezus out of me. (I didn't bother listing tools or station in the above since I already use +14.94 tools and a +42.somethingorother station)
Message Edited by Rizzaka on 03-25-2004 03:13 PM
Rizzaka wrote:
I like that reply Dex, i would agree about giving us the chance to use it but then we'd be taking away from smiths... perhaps let us put the segment into some of the Field Wear line of clothings? Let both tailor and AS use this item much like the synth cloth and the RFP.. however as it is now i still like it and would like to see it stay in.
and no offense Syzygy-Gorathbut are you reading my posts? your still avoiding the base argument i've laid down that if you don't like it don't craft it. Put some substance behind your argument as Dex has.
So many of you say you don't want to make it so it must be removed... well you know what i don't like making shoes, i say we remove that too... oh whats that? i shouldn't make them if i don't like them? HRMMMM wow that rings a bell now doesn't it?
Message Edited by Rizzaka on 03-25-2004 03:13 PM
No, I understand your point. Mine is that this sets a precedent for tailoring experimentation—something that would suck about 90% of the fun of tailoring out of it for me. I worry that once we have one experimentable item there will be more, and more, and more, and soon everything we do will require experimentation. I have absolutely no interest in seeing that happen, and for that reason I will fight not to have any experimentable items. If this were just another component like SC or RFP I'd do what I do now, not sell it. But it's not. It's a whole 'nother animal entirely.
To restate: I don't have a problem with new schematics. Like you said, I don't like it, I don't have to craft it—what I have a problem with is this schematic because it requires experimentation—something that right now we don't have to deal with, and I don't ever want to deal with.
What if...for MOST of the items we craft...the 'normal' clothing items...there was no experimentation....but for a FEW 'component' items, there is?
Would that solve this issue? Some of us actually enjoy the experimentation process...others (obviously) despise it...fair enough...but can't we have it both ways?
I honestly don't see why adding experimentation to this one item is going to destroy everything
Nuke490 wrote:
What if...for MOST of the items we craft...the 'normal' clothing items...there was no experimentation....but for a FEW 'component' items, there is?
Would that solve this issue? Some of us actually enjoy the experimentation process...others (obviously) despise it...fair enough...but can't we have it both ways?
I honestly don't see why adding experimentation to this one item is going to destroy everything
I understand that some people enjoy experimentation…to a degree I do as well (former Master Combat Medic, current Master Artisan) The biggest problem, as I see it, is a paradigmatic shift in what tailoring is. For a long time now the distinction between tailoring and other crafting classes has been that we need to craft all our finished goods one at a time, while they have to experiment out their goods and then do factory runs. It's a trade off. I really, really don't want to run the risk of having to both craft every item by hand, and experiment it all out. I'll grant that the devs have gotten better at listening to the communities and responding to what we want, instead of what they think we want—but I still don't trust them 100%. You could be right, this could be a great thing for tailors…but it scares me, and I don't think it's worth the risk.
I hear you, and I fully agree that this paradigm change in the dev's way of thinking is going to be difficult...and we as people will resist change. But sometimes it can be a GOOD thing...I think too many of us are stagnant in our ways...this push (while painful) is in the right direction...
Syzygy-Gorath wrote:
I understand that some people enjoy experimentation…to a degree I do as well (former Master Combat Medic, current Master Artisan) The biggest problem, as I see it, is a paradigmatic shift in what tailoring is. For a long time now the distinction between tailoring and other crafting classes has been that we need to craft all our finished goods one at a time, while they have to experiment out their goods and then do factory runs. It's a trade off. I really, really don't want to run the risk of having to both craft every item by hand, and experiment it all out. I'll grant that the devs have gotten better at listening to the communities and responding to what we want, instead of what they think we want—but I still don't trust them 100%. You could be right, this could be a great thing for tailors…but it scares me, and I don't think it's worth the risk.
Okay i understand not wanting to be stuck in a profession where expirimentation reigns supreme, i agree... so lets join forces and fight this one battle at a time and allow this one through for now either that or have n'Jessa reply to the Devs with a "nice try guys but swap this with something we can both use as an optional component that we can expiriment on"
oh what say ye' tailors of SWG