Swordsman Archive
Thread: Bleeds Discussion
Ilnomer
Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:22 pm
#66
I've removed both bleeds from my toolbars after messing around with them for a few hours in both PvE and PvP situations. Surely this isn't working as intended. Those butterflies on Corellia did more damage a newbie to the game.
sysfailur2
Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:01 pm
#67
raider7734 wrote:
Mejowepra wrote:
(mind you, I have SEA's so my speed is 92 - I can easily outdamage a MTKA on a single enemy in PvP now, not to mention groups of enemies
Bingo!That+92 speed fixes our worst problem: lousy damage output. (at +92, your DPS isthree times that of a master Swordsman).Just imagine how awful it is for thosewho don't have any speed mods.
Come on devs,double our damage and give us more accuracy... we're that far behind.
I've got +16 beyond our max with tapes, and hitting 1/second is just so nice... headhit3 really destroys 
But, just because that is good it doesn't mean we should be juked on accuracy. Thankfully there is a food coming out that raises acc. for like 20minutes or something. That would be nice.
NastySavage
Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:51 pm
#68
I'll say this. Been a Swordsman since two days after it hit retail. Swordsman has gotten worse and worse with every patch. NERF! NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF. Never have I seen a more incompetant staff in my life then these moronic developers. We solo too much? How about making the mobs harder? How about adding content to the game to compensate?
We bleed an kite and this is a bad thing? If we are lucky enough to score that hit and play keep away what's the problem? Its a tactic...new Chef food would have compensated and now that Chef food is worthless too!
Damage mitigation was horrible. I had a chance to take a tka down before KD/Dizzy ended the fight at least marginally if I scored enough hits. I'll give a prime example, I had 80% kinetic Composite armor on and a TKA scored a k/d dizzy on me. Bleed and the incap that was nerfed would have given me at least a CHANCE (no, it WASN'T an absolute!) to get up and win. But all I could do is sit there, not get up and watch him pound me with his little sparrow fists and D/B me. And to make matters worse, the bleed was healed with meditation by the time I cloned 15 meters away and came out of the door.
Whoever is the manager of this development fiasco should be fired. Put it back the way it was and start DOING instead of UNDOING. Its like Microsoft staff have been hired to lead this game. I am unwilling to wait another month (IF THAT) for you to fix this nonsense. Going Combat Medic immediately. almost 8 months down the drain by a short sighted staff of boobs. No wonder they send all of our tech jobs to India, why pay top dollar for dingbats when you can get the dingbats for 1/4 price overseas? I know this was meant to be a positive thread for fixes to the profession and I apologize for crapping it, but it needs to be said. Everything had a purpose when it started and now the purpose becomes less and less apparent with each DOWNgrade. The game becomes less and less enjoyable each day because of shortsighted implementations to appease one group or another because this staff obviously cannot see the big picture.
Sad. Such a rich pre-made world where things required just a little bit of dream and a few parts imagination and this could be a wonderful place to play. It almost appears as if the leads left to work on the space expansion and left the junior staff to try to keep things afloat. Well guess what? Swapping deck chairs on the Titanic after you struck the iceberg isn't going to stop it from sinking.
We bleed an kite and this is a bad thing? If we are lucky enough to score that hit and play keep away what's the problem? Its a tactic...new Chef food would have compensated and now that Chef food is worthless too!
Damage mitigation was horrible. I had a chance to take a tka down before KD/Dizzy ended the fight at least marginally if I scored enough hits. I'll give a prime example, I had 80% kinetic Composite armor on and a TKA scored a k/d dizzy on me. Bleed and the incap that was nerfed would have given me at least a CHANCE (no, it WASN'T an absolute!) to get up and win. But all I could do is sit there, not get up and watch him pound me with his little sparrow fists and D/B me. And to make matters worse, the bleed was healed with meditation by the time I cloned 15 meters away and came out of the door.
Whoever is the manager of this development fiasco should be fired. Put it back the way it was and start DOING instead of UNDOING. Its like Microsoft staff have been hired to lead this game. I am unwilling to wait another month (IF THAT) for you to fix this nonsense. Going Combat Medic immediately. almost 8 months down the drain by a short sighted staff of boobs. No wonder they send all of our tech jobs to India, why pay top dollar for dingbats when you can get the dingbats for 1/4 price overseas? I know this was meant to be a positive thread for fixes to the profession and I apologize for crapping it, but it needs to be said. Everything had a purpose when it started and now the purpose becomes less and less apparent with each DOWNgrade. The game becomes less and less enjoyable each day because of shortsighted implementations to appease one group or another because this staff obviously cannot see the big picture.
Sad. Such a rich pre-made world where things required just a little bit of dream and a few parts imagination and this could be a wonderful place to play. It almost appears as if the leads left to work on the space expansion and left the junior staff to try to keep things afloat. Well guess what? Swapping deck chairs on the Titanic after you struck the iceberg isn't going to stop it from sinking.
Vergigorm1990
Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:38 pm
#69
Will you use these bleeds as they stand?
Absolutely not. I'm better off taking my chances with head hits and using a fast carbine to apply some effects that count (stun, blind, dizzy if they ever fix carbineer) than use the bleed. Bleeds were my primary way of killing TK and Riflemen. Bleed them so I'm still doing damage to them during the times when I can'thit them back such as:
Absolutely not. I'm better off taking my chances with head hits and using a fast carbine to apply some effects that count (stun, blind, dizzy if they ever fix carbineer) than use the bleed. Bleeds were my primary way of killing TK and Riflemen. Bleed them so I'm still doing damage to them during the times when I can'thit them back such as:
- TK Knockdown+Dizzy. As I /stand while they arestompingme into the ground with their mitigation-proof unarmed damage mods with the KD damage bonus, I'm hurting them too so I'm not actually out of the fight, assuming I live to stand again. Usuming they're using UH3, there's a 2 in 3 chance they're not hitting the weakest, most difficult to heal pool, mind, even though they are doing some life threatening damage.
- Riflemen (and any other ranged class, but who isn't a rifleman these days). As they run from me, blasting away at my mind while I get "Target is out of range" spam, I'm hurting them with bleed. That allowed me to use some tactics, like not giving them line of sight by running around a corner, behind a wall, etc. They'll bleed to death if they don't come and get me, and when they do, I get to swing back.
Assuming that this loss in damage is made up for in the coming rebalance, how do you feel about the change?
I answered the bleed question first to better explain this answer... I don't think they can make up for the loss of bleed damage without some rather significant implications to balance with other classes. If we have to go blow for blow with TKs and Fencers to do damage, that would have to adjust swordsman in at least one of the following ways:
- Faster...much much faster
- More accurate...much much more accurate
- Do much much more damage than 60 compared to200-300 that I typically receive from TKs and good stun batons (thank goodness for master carbineer counter attack, otherwise I'd always lose to these guys).
Essentially this type of move would have to make all melee classes roughly the same with the exception of weapon choice. You need accuracy to land damage and specials (assuming we had any...30% chance doesn't really count). You need damage more than ever because direct damage is all that kills. You need speed because if the defense stacking goes away, it's a straight dps contest. Whoever does more will win in the case of melee. Every melee class will demand a KD+Dizzy, whichwill either be the order of the day or will be nerfed, neither of which would be good. In the case of sword versus ranged, running out of line of sight will keep you from getting shot but you won't be able to get closer to winning the fight. If they kite you, you better pull out a gun (wait, that's not in swordsman!).
That last statement brings up another point. TH said in the pikeman forum that pikeman was considered a 'hybrid' class in that it was not meant to be used exclusively but in conjunction with another combat profession. Does this line of thinking apply to all elite classes? I think that's an important question to answer because a lot of balance will depend on that. Combinations are the only thing that separates this from an ordinary class based game, but devs blame these combos for the current imbalance.
Ilnomer
Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:32 pm
#70
Just to give another example of how rediculous this drastic reduction in bleed damage is without other compensation let me post some numbers. My typical bleed hits for 100-200 points of damage a tick now. I haven't timed it myself but I have seen it mentioned many places that a tick for the swordsman mind bleeds is spaced at 20 seconds apart. Using that information, let's look at an example creature: The lesser plains bol.
Having quite near 10k HAM and conning white at two-hand four in the brawler tree and no natural armor. I would consider these creatures prettylow on the food chain. I'll use these 10k HAM creatures as a demonstration and you all can compare it to the 40k+ HAM creatures that a Master Heavy Swordsman typically fights on your own. I won't even get to the 350k HAM creatures.
At 100 points of damage a tick, a tick occuring every twenty seconds, it would take a 10k HAM creature just over 30 minutes to die from bleeding. Keep in mind that I can attack this same creature, sit the keyboard away, never press any buttons or click on any specials, and the creature will be dead before the first tick at master swordsman. The bleedbenifits me none whatsoever. Of course, a master heavy swordsman wouldn't be hunting down lesser plains bols.
Considering that it takes over a minute for a bleed to do the exact same ammount of damage that my auto-attack can do every single second with every swing, I don't see it benifiting me in the long run for any longer fights either. Some of the longest fights that I participate in takes between five and ten minutes. In five minutes my 100 point bleed would have done 1500 damage. That is slightly above the normal damage range for a non-special hammer swing. 1500 damage to a creature with 40k or more HAM is nothing. I won't even talk about the fact that my normal swings cost me none of my HAM and that the mind bleed eats a third of my health bar away just for the priveledge of swinging once.
Granted, I used the low end 100 point bleed in my examples, but you can halve the times and double the total damages for the 200 point bleeds yourself and they still wind up being quite rediculous. If they are trying to compare them to all the other state effects now, then I would rather have any other state effect than a bleed as things are now.
raider7734
Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:32 am
#71
Mejowepra wrote:
(mind you, I have SEA's so my speed is 92 - I can easily outdamage a MTKA on a single enemy in PvP now, not to mention groups of enemies
Bingo!That+92 speed fixes our worst problem: lousy damage output. (at +92, your DPS isthree times that of a master Swordsman).Just imagine how awful it is for thosewho don't have any speed mods.
Come on devs,double our damage and give us more accuracy... we're that far behind.
ShadesBlue
Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:50 am
#72
Ooh, I have to say I'm very disappointed with this news about the bleeds (I haven't been online or playedfor a few days).
The question from Gabe "Will you use the bleeds?" is the important one for the devs to know I think?
My answer after reading about the changes to bleeds, would have to be no.
For me to use a skill, it has to be of some use... And the bleeds seem to have had their usefulness greatly reduced. As someone else has said - Why waste the HAM to get a bleed on the opponent, when you can use roughly the same cost for a head hit and a lot more damage in that one attack, than the new bleed would add up to over the entire fight.
I can understand the idea of weakening them a little, but it does seem silly to change them to the point where they simply won't be used.
0rphan
Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:24 am
#73
I forgot to add in my post,
No I will not use bleeds as they are now. I have removed them from my hotkey bar, and they can sit back where they came from, either untillI finish mastering this profession (in which case if there is no fix made I will drop MHS as soon as I get it for fencer or pikeman).
By fix I mean get rid of bleeds completely so i can use the combat xp towards getting a new skill that isn't useless!
Faster attack speed, and accuracy.
Or just give us back our original bleeds.
So the devs can understand a bit better,
Bleed before good, Bleed now bad, Bleed useless,FIXswordsman.
TalosGod
Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:03 am
#74
I agree that the bleeds are worth nothing now, but we still do a lot of damage with the headhits. - i can still solo an giant Kimogila, though it takes about double time now without the bleeds.
- Mystra
Keelala
Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:44 am
#75
killabyte wrote:
As a master heavy swordsman, I am near useless in pvp. Using a 700dmg power hammer, i finally got a bleed of 250 on my opponent, as i watched it do a few ticks, he took all of 30 mind damage....
With 80% kinetic resists from composite armor, I wonder if swordsman is now completely useless? Might as well go fencer/pistoleer or grab rifleman like everyone else.
This is just my experience, but have we been crippled?
-Iyepo
Yes we have been crippled very very much so i was a heavy swordsman master and loved it everyone feared me in PvP. Our mind bleeds was our only weapon tell me why do we need 6 different posture changes...we don't it is lame. After i was to unlock my jedi i was going to go back to two hand...now...i think im going tka because i love melee and they get everything. The bitched and moaned they only get one weapon well now then will be getting another. They say we out damage other melee classes well not anymore because on our server everyone has near 80% armor to kinetic and most of the time our power hammer misses because of the accuracy. I know most will say well we will be getting the Schythe so we can hit every second. Well my best two hand curved is 2.5 79-322. Which is practicly every second now and i dont' see the Schythe getting better damage then what i have now. I think it is a bad bad idea to get rid of our only weapon bleeds. Sure we have mind attack but with armor like that we have no chance. Other then our mind attack what do we have two hand hit 3 that is it. If im wrong about this part i would love to see anyone say we have any other attacks. Again what do we need 6 different posture changes for we don't. And if anyone didn't know tka gets food now to get more power...wow like they needed it. That is my two cents i would love to see who aggrees or disaggress with this
chuckbaca
Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:02 am
#76
I am a Novice Swordsman 0202. I am also a Master Doctor with stats adjusted 400/400/400 for Health and Action, and 1100/950/950 for Mind. I buff myself before going on any hunt along with using Fishak.
Before the patch, I could go into the Jinta Cave on Endor and make okay progress. Watching my battles, to make sure I didn't get too many to swarm me at one time. Mind Bleeds worked well.
After the Patch; Mind Bleed is nearly useless. I thought some people were whining as they often do after a patch but I was wrong. Mind Bleeds in a non-event now.
Before thepatch; Angerian Fishak gave me a mindbenefit for about ten minutes. It wore off and I was able to drink another ration of Yak. Reasonable; since I lost the benefit then my cartoon stomach should be ready for more.
After the patch, when the Fishak wears off, I cannot ingest any drink for another five to ten minutes even though I am no longer receiving the benefit of enhanced mind.
Needless to say my progress through the Jinta Caves was drastically reduced after patch.
I am using a sliced 2h Curved Sword with 65-80 Composite.
Andymantium
Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:26 am
#77
*sigh*
And I was having so much fun with novice swordsman....until they work this out I'll be dropping and re-allocating my skill points elsewhere. It's too bad, this is (was) such a great profession 
0rphan
Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:07 pm
#78
"Before thepatch; Angerian Fishak gave me a mindbenefit for about ten minutes."
Fishak is gone after this patch too isn't it?