Squad Leader Archive
Thread: MORE DEV ADVICE: Here we go again ... Fixing the BH / JEDI system.
DrkSensei wrote:
Loki_Ashaman wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Well, they're pushing this out without concern about this issue. Which is either really "good" for BH's or really is going to end up sucking for SL's.
We'll see how it hits live.
Has anyone seen a report of a BH one shotting a Jedi since the SL fix that corrected buffs not dropping properly? Or is everyone still foaming at the mouths from the broken-buffs screenshots?
Shhh don't bring logic into a forum debate..I mean c'mon what ya thinking
Oooooh....funny guy we have here.
No one would care if the buffs were fixed and adjusted properly. If in fact they have been adjusted to the level where they are within "acceptable" parameters, then there is no longer an issue. However when there are multiple reports coming in of people being one-shotted, then I would say there is a problem.
And seriously, when has anything really ever been fixedin a reliable fashion...
DrkSensei wrote:
Loki_Ashaman wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Well, they're pushing this out without concern about this issue. Which is either really "good" for BH's or really is going to end up sucking for SL's.
We'll see how it hits live.
Has anyone seen a report of a BH one shotting a Jedi since the SL fix that corrected buffs not dropping properly? Or is everyone still foaming at the mouths from the broken-buffs screenshots?
Shhh don't bring logic into a forum debate..I mean c'mon what ya thinking
DrkSensei wrote:
You do realize the patch has been delayed right?
Remember the exp nerf patch? That got delayed...and went live pretty much as it was.
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
DrkSensei wrote:
You do realize the patch has been delayed right?
Remember the exp nerf patch? That got delayed...and went live pretty much as it was.
And the announcement that it was delayed was a EIGHT WHOLE MINUTES before I made my post.
OMGOMGOMG. It's so inexcusable that I didn't know about a post in an entirely different part of the forums within EIGHT WHOLE MINUTES of it being up.
forshame.....
Edited because it just isn't worth it...here is to hoping they fix all your concerns
Message Edited by DrkSensei on 10-17-2005 10:53 PM
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
DrkSensei wrote:
Loki_Ashaman wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Well, they're pushing this out without concern about this issue. Which is either really "good" for BH's or really is going to end up sucking for SL's.
We'll see how it hits live.
Has anyone seen a report of a BH one shotting a Jedi since the SL fix that corrected buffs not dropping properly? Or is everyone still foaming at the mouths from the broken-buffs screenshots?
Shhh don't bring logic into a forum debate..I mean c'mon what ya thinking
I haven't seen conclusive proof that they've "fixed" it. I haven't seen conclusive proof that any of the fixes that would have actually been fixes have made it in Pub 24. You'll have to forgive me the human weakness of not taking things on faith anymore. So sorry if it doesn't live up to your expectations.
I'll start taking things on faith when that level of trust has been earned again.
Who's talking faith? Expectation, HA! I'm talking evidence, everyone keeps spouting BH's can one shot Jedi, but they keep refering to screenshots of SL / Rifleman or SL / Smugglersone shotting Jedi in an artificial setting - no BH in the template at all. I have yet to see a screenshot of a BH one-shotting Jedi, and have yet to see a one-shot screenshot since the changes. I want evidence instead of more OMG from the various peanut galleries, that's all.
- Called Shot has been reduced from +155% to +110%, this we know. We also now know it only affects the next shot, so if a Rifleman / SL uses it in mass PvP, odds are someone else will hit his target and get the Called Shot bonus before his Sniper Shot gets off unless he is targetting a target no one else is. In a Solo extended encounter, Called Shot allows a +5% DPS increase over alternating 2 similar damage specials. Usefullness = near zero now to non-BH SLs.
- A single SL can no longer apply all the SL buffs to a group, as they now reset properly.Thus to get all 3 SL offensive buffs, you need 3 SLs in the group. I believe this has been confirmed, but I can not find the post it is in.
- If the SL dies, the group losses the buffs. Confirmed by D_S.
- It has been mentioned that leaving the SL's area, you will lose the SL's buffs. Haven't seen this in action myself, but if true it means the BH has to have the above 3 SLs follow him around. Not easy, but BH guilds will probably be able to pull this off via alts.
Rylarth wrote:
OP you say SL is intended to lead not to help bh etc. in a logical and realistic sense what would stop a bh from hiring someone who could help them take out their mark, what would stop a bh with skills(SL skills) from utilizing those skills to help him accomplish his goal and take out the mark.
I agree the one shot kill 5000 damage or whateverit wasis extreme and does need looked at but on the other hand I can see many uses for this kind of high damage in PVE and it seemsyour post and commentsare only going to lead to nerfage which would be a real shame.
Too many Jedi -BH have a job to do.
Rylarth wrote:
OP you say SL is intended to lead not to help bh etc. in a logical and realistic sense what would stop a bh from hiring someone who could help them take out their mark, what would stop a bh with skills(SL skills) from utilizing those skills to help him accomplish his goal and take out the mark.
I agree the one shot kill 5000 damage or whateverit wasis extreme and does need looked at but on the other hand I can see many uses for this kind of high damage in PVE and it seemsyour post and commentsare only going to lead to nerfage which would be a real shame.
Too many Jedi -BH have a job to do.
Okay, you were civil in voicing your questions, and I thank you for that. However, I do disagree with your points. 
The reasons why are fairly simple, in my opinion ... obviously, you may not agree with them.
For starters, the BH / Jedi system revolves around a 'solo' engagement. Bounty Hunters are supposed to enter into a one on one combat situation with their prey, in theory ... that's even the case of Bounty Hunter "Elite Marks," which are not supposed to be attackable by anyone but the Bounty Hunter. This obviously sets the stage for the interpretation that Bounty Hunter is meant to be a "loner" profession. Like the iconoclastic Bounty Hunter from the movies that the profession is based on (Boba Fett, of course), the concept of working with others is frowned upon by the very nature of this profession. Bounty Hunters are supposed to be sneaky **edit** who go out and shoot you in the back when you're not looking ... they are not the sort who roll up in force with friends to take down their prey.
Now, as for why I don't feel a Bounty Hunter should be able to "hire" a Squad Leader ... simple. For one, outside help after the onset of the Bounty Hunter TEF is impossible, meaning the SL can only give the BH a few buffs before he goes into combat, then nothing else (unless, of course, the BH *is* the SL, but I'll get to that next). Leadership is a constant thing. There is an ebb and flow to leadership, being that the battlefield is an ever-changing and dynamic place. "Flank!" "Attack!" "Fall back!" "Engage!" All of these commands might be barked in the spanse of a few seconds by a leader on a battlefield, expressing the fact that the relationship between a Squad Leader and those he or she is leading is meant to be active, perpetual, and dynamic. The Bounty Hunter TEF system doesn't allow for this. It discourages it. Squad Leaders are not the sort of people who "give you advice" then send you on your way to die. They are *leaders*. They lead, they do not *instruct*. Make sense?
Now, regarding why I don't believe the BH should be able to use his SL buffs in the BH TEF ... for one, let's be honest. This is all about Bounty Hunters wanting to be uber. No BH's would be anywhere near this forum right now, nor would they give two craps what Squad Leader was doing if they didn't feel that they could gain something from exploiting this profession. I have yet to meet a single Bounty Hunter that says: "You know what! Gosh darnit, I want to hang up my Jedi-huntin' days and lead men and women in battle!" None. If you look at the Bounty Hunter boards, all you see is little 1337-kiddies stewing in their angsty weiner rage over "how uber it's gonna be when they can one-shot Jedi." So I ask ... is this how Squad Leader was really meant to be played? To be exploited like this, to create a one-man-army that can potentially insta-kill Jedi in a single shot? I think not.
My concern has nothing to do with liking Jedi or disliking BH's. My argument is based upon the fact that I love my profession, Squad Leader, and I do not want to see it tainted by using it in a fashion that it was never intended to be used in. I consider BH/SL to be an exploit, through and through. Let's break it down to a real world example ... if Squad Leader / Bounty Hunters can "self-buff," what is happening? The Bounty Hunter "pulls himself aside to have a little pep talk with himself?"
"Hey, ME!" "Yeah, ME?" "Okay, ME! Here's what I'm gonna do! I'm gonna charge that hill and take that objective, ME! Obey MY orders, ME!" "Yes, ME!" ?
Doesn't make much sense, does it? There's no such thing as "leading" yourself in battle. Leadership benefits others around you ... not yourself. That's all I care about. I want Squad Leaders to be used the way they're *supposed* to be used, not trivialized into some little exploit profession that gets nerfed three months later because all the Jedi quit the game. I want to lead groups of players -- squads, and have fun in the game by bolstering their effectiveness and having them bestow their faith and trust in me. I consider Bounty Hunters exploiting my profession to be utterly shameful, because they are using it to become uber. They could care less about what the "purpose" of this profession is ... nor do they care how they insult legitimate Squad Leaders or threaten to trivialize our Profession.
I understand your confusion and your points, even though I disagree with them. I hope that you are able to understand mine.
Message Edited by ObsidianWrath on 10-18-2005 06:26 AM
ObsidianWrath wrote:
Seems it wasn't all that long ago that I was writing a post like this suggesting a change that would wind up being implemented in the game. Well, I'm willing to take another shot at it. Regardless of how sound my idea was last time or this time, it was the support of the community for the idea that got the Leadership skill implemented. If you agree with this prospective solution to the BH/ SL / JEDI problem, please post below. As with the Leadership proposal, I don't pretend to claim that this is a perfect idea, so if you have constructive ideas to contribute, please feel free.
Okay, lately there has been a huge problem arising on the Jedi forums regarding BH/SL hybrids coming after Jedi and "pwning" them, for lack of a better word. Jedi are freaking out, going crazy over 2500 damage rifle attacks and what not, and to be honest I can understand their fear and frustration.
I am not a hugefan of Jedi in this game. I think there are far to many of them, but on the same token I don't want to see Squad Leader become a "/win" profession for Bounty Hunters, nor do I want to see our beloved profession perverted and twisted into something it was never intended to be. We are Squad Leaders. We are not "BH Buddies."
My proposition is extremely simple. Rather than change anything that has to do with Squad Leader (unless it is a genuine balance issue that needs tweaking for legitimate use in PVP), the changes need to be made to the BH TEF system:
1.) Change the BH TEF system so that Bounty Hunters may not initiate a BH TEF against a player Jedi unless they are not in a group.
This would not hurt the bounty hunter in any way. He gains nothing from being in a group, and frankly it is more Star Wars-centric to have a Bounty Hunter acting alone, anyway. Grouped bounty hunters are where prospective exploits come into play, and frankly I consider the solo SL/BH to be an exploit. It is a perversion of a system, using it in a way that it was never intended to be used.
Conversely, the Jedi should suffer no penalty from being in a Group, even with a Squad Leader. It is the Bounty Hunter's discretion when to initiate combat, and if he chooses to engage a Jedi that is in a group, he runs the risk of there being a Squad Leader buffing that Jedi. Jedi do not get to choose the time and place that they are engaged by Bounty Hunters. If a BH engages a Jedi that is in a group with a Squad Leader through no intention of fighting the BH on his own, it is the BH's mistake -- not a game imbalance.
2.) Change the SL system so that a Squad Leader may not buff himself unless he is in a group.
The purpose of this change is to eliminate the possibility of uber one-man Squad Leader/ Bounty Hunters. What the hell would the point of this be, honestly? There is none. It's a perversion of our profession, utilizing it in a way that it is not INTENDED to be used to exploit a system in favor of BH's. This is where our profession becomes free reign to dabblers, and this is where our profession runs the risk of becoming FOTM. We don't want that, folks. This is a restriction we've lived with before, and it's fine.
Squad Leaders who want their buffs for legitimate purposes can group with a pet or a droid and get them. Right now, you're asking why a BH can't do the same thing to hunt Jedi. Scroll up, and review point one. Bounty Hunters cannot engage Jedi if they are in a group. Dropping group results in the lack of a Squad Leader bonus, as the Squad Leader must be grouped to activate and maintain his own buff. Therefore, one-man uber BH / SL combos will not become the FOTM and will not result in a huge game balance.
Order will be restored, and our profession can get back to focusing on what's really important: making a fun profession to play that will help us stand shoulder to shoulder with our brothers and sisters in battle, guiding and aiding them in their plight.
If you support this idea, please post so below. I honestly believe this is the most elegant solution to this growing problem, and it should be able to be implemented fairly easily. It will resolve all problems, and I cannot think of any detriments to the existing system.
Opinions?