Squad Leader Archive

Sorry, taking alot of heat in game and out. Jedi is our main character, I've done everything else I've wanted pretty much. I don't run around acting like a show off Jedi, I prefer to keep a low profile. And I rarely stay in one spot, unlike these darn Jedi that hang around starports dueling each other endlessly like idiots (those Jedi I wish would get ganked).

I agree that Jedi should NEVER be standing around at starports like that. But at the same time, they chose to convert our main into Jedi instead of unlocking a Jedi slot like I would honestly prefer. But I have limited fun with my normal toons compared to my Jedi, as long as the balance isn't too crazy agianst us. I am usually on the move and just trying to have fun on my own. But to do anything besides hunt and grind, you will end up a BH mission. I never minded that when there was some sort of balance and chance to escape. But those are being eliminated. Then SOE tells us what they expect us to use for escape tactics, then nerf those too. SOE is expecting us to have no defense and die. They broke alot of our defense skills including other melee such as force aura/COB, avoid incap is now totally worthless. So now we don't have any chance against the uber prepared and obsessive BH, which there are plenty of. Casual BHers aren't a problem.

But I have said it numerous times. I don't think NERFING anyone is the answer. I didn't want to see healing get nerfed, and I don't want to see SL get nerfed. The problems always stem to players using skills in ways not intended. I don't think they meant for SL skills to be involved in 1 on 1 duels or even part of the BH vs Jedi bore wars. If it was done right, they wouldn't be. I don't think they meant for only the healing branch in CM to be used to provide incredible self healing in 1 on 1 duels.

Message Edited by Orthell on 10-20-2005 02:34 PM

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Loki_Ashaman wrote:
Interesting. That speaks of a change in the SL vs TEF code, as during my testing last week the Jedi who was helping me did not loose his buffs when he was attacked... but that was before the icons broke and other changes.

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I can Also confirm this.

I was in a grind group on dantooine yesterday, and a jedi in my group had a bounty hunter initiate attack on him. The minute the first shot was fired, ALL my buffs, including the individual buff on the jedi were cancelled. I could not re-apply the buff to him again until after the BH was dead and the TEF had worn off.

I have heard that the same does NOT hold true for the bounty hunter. I've heard reports from guild members that SL buffs on BH's who were obviously not Squad leaders, but had gotten the buffs from another player, would NOT clear when the TEF was initiated. If this is indeed true (have not confirmed it myself), then this definately needs to be fixed immediately.

I normally do not side with jedi, but in this issue the fact that SL buffs do not clear on a BH but they do on a jedi when the TEF is activated is extremely unbalancing.

I fail to see why the old doc buffs, which allegedly unbalanced the game, were eliminated while these propogated so soon thereafter.

Enlighten me!

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TjadenFederov wrote:

I was in a grind group on dantooine yesterday, and a jedi in my group had a bounty hunter initiate attack on him. The minute the first shot was fired, ALL my buffs, including the individual buff on the jedi were cancelled. I could not re-apply the buff to him again until after the BH was dead and the TEF had worn off.

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Darth_Sushi wrote:

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robpro wrote:

I think this will be a good bh template and all out PvP template.

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Yeah, I've been paying real close attention to the MBH/MSL/CM4000 combo in the beta and on TC myself. It generally looks like you've got a pretty good handle there on the all-around utility of the upcoming Squad Leader enhancements. Not gamebreaking, but definitely a force to be reckoned with in the hands of a knowledgeable player.

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Not gamebreaking? With all respect, do you even know anything about playing a Jedi to make this assumption? I'll give you an example. I was hunted by a MBH/MSL today (examined his template) who was grouped with his DROID (presumably a Med droid lvl 110). He had his SL buffs going. The result of this encounter? A one shot incap for 3168 pts of damage. Mind you, I am a full temp double mastery Jedi, not a grinding paddie or a dabbler. I was not food or spice buffed, but was at full 3k health when the attack occured. I was TEF'd and incapped in the same instance. Standing up from the incap, and doing the only thing I could, a heal and wham, incapped again. Get my drift here?

For a profession that takes 60 times the XP to unlock and complete and was touted by SOE as "1.5 times stronger than a CL80" to be taken down in one shot IS gamebreaking Darth_Sushi. I don't nor never expected to be uber-leet and the younger people say. I DO however, expect to at least stand a chance.

You ask for feedback on the PvP dynamic and the Jedi/BH dynamic. I will address PvP first. SLs are SUPPOSED to be in a group to buff other PLAYERS, therefore they should be PRESENT with the group, not on some distant planet running auto-buff macros. How, in PvP, can you "take out" the squad leader when (s)he isn't even there at the battle?

In Jedi/BH, a BH/SL should NOT be able to buff his "group" by simply grouping with his/her DROID. Again, it is designed to be a group action to enhance PLAYERS.

The solutions are clear. First off, I do not want to nerf the new SL skills. Quite the opposite. My intention is to ensure that they are used as INTENDED. In group PvP, the SL has to be within LOS of the group in order for the buffs to be applied and maintained. How are we supposed to believe that any group can hear "You want to live forever?" from two planets or even 2k meters away? In Jedi/BH hunts, the solution is equally simple. Do not allow a BH to be able to pull a Jedi mission while in a group... and/or... if a BH has a Jedi mission in his datapad, that would prevent him/her from being able to recieve a SL buff. Equally important, if any Jedi is attacked by a BH who has his/her mission, the Jedi would lose any SL buffs he/she might have.

If this is allowed to stay, every PvP group and BH will have a MSL holed up somewhere safe, out of range of combat, running auto-buffs. The only COUNTER for this, is the opposite side doing the same. This far exceeds the days where Doc buffs were mandatory to compete (one of the reasons for the CU).

Message Edited by Darka-ce on 10-21-2005 01:25 AM

To show my line of argumentation, i unfortunately have to sort the article into a new order. Please hang on:

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You ask for feedback on the PvP dynamic and the Jedi/BH dynamic. I will address PvP first. SLs are SUPPOSED to be in a group to buff other PLAYERS, therefore they should be PRESENT with the group, not on some distant planet running auto-buff macros. How, in PvP, can you "take out" the squad leader when (s)he isn't even there at the battle?

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Considering that the actual behaviour of the buffs is:

• Buff is removed from every player who is over 100 meters away from the SL


• Buff are removed from every player when the SL dies

I have to say, the point you are rising here is _old_. Yes, i am well aware that you just crawled over from Jedi boards where the people prefer to show screenshots from testing during Beta to "prove" how overpowered the SL is. Please first update your information, then try to discuss.

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In Jedi/BH, a BH/SL should NOT be able to buff his "group" by simply grouping with his/her DROID. Again, it is designed to be a group action to enhance PLAYERS.

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Again, please get your information straight. The buffs are not even dependant on being grouped.

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The solutions are clear. First off, I do not want to nerf the new SL skills. Quite the opposite. My intention is to ensure that they are used as INTENDED. In group PvP, the SL has to be within LOS of the group in order for the buffs to be applied and maintained. How are we supposed to believe that any group can hear "You want to live forever?" from two planets or even 2k meters away? In Jedi/BH hunts, the solution is equally simple. Do not allow a BH to be able to pull a Jedi mission while in a group... and/or... if a BH has a Jedi mission in his datapad, that would prevent him/her from being able to recieve a SL buff. Equally important, if any Jedi is attacked by a BH who has his/her mission, the Jedi would lose any SL buffs he/she might have.

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And once again, your whole argumentation is based on wrong information. The buffs are gone if the SL is far away, but even if they would be available, the buffs (where all you people are now crying about so madly) are comparatively weak. The thing you read about to give the massive damage output, but never took the time to really gather information about to really know what it is, is an _ability_ which can only be used if the SL:

• is in attack range of the target


• can see the target


• is able to _attack_ the target

And as the last one might be hard to comprehend, this means, the SL either has to be the BH himself, or he has to politely ask the Jedi to please duel him so he can apply the abilities while the BH attacks.

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If this is allowed to stay, every PvP group and BH will have a MSL holed up somewhere safe, out of range of combat, running auto-buffs. The only COUNTER for this, is the opposite side doing the same. This far exceeds the days where Doc buffs were mandatory to compete (one of the reasons for the CU).

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Now that you have warned us of the numerous buffbots which currently apparently are killilng you oh so much, i dare to tell you, check the forums here, we fought for a long while already, while both BHs and Jedi were not caring for the profession at all, to avoid exactly what you now warn us about. And guess what, even before you came here, and even before the thing went to live, the problems you now cry us a river about all the time were already resolved.

I am sorry for singling out you now, but i am getting quite pissed at all those uninformed creeps crawling into our forum and informing us about things which were a problem during beta and were fixed some time ago, and also "for the best of our profession" fighting against changes in the profession which all long time SLs would actually like to see. (This passage is mostly for those BHs who have nothing else to do but now to turn up to lecture us how to cry for not getting nerved but rather pushing the pendulum out of balance.... )

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For a profession that takes 60 times the XP to unlock and complete and was touted by SOE as "1.5 times stronger than a CL80" to be taken down in one shot IS gamebreaking Darth_Sushi. I don't nor never expected to be uber-leet and the younger people say. I DO however, expect to at least stand a chance.

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Here my answer is:

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  I have heard that stuff so often, it's growing out of my ears. I don't care what SOE said about the "1.5 times stronger" or whatever. You're sure stronger than any SL, so please skip that here.


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  I don't care about how much XP you need for anything. XP is cheap, if you want to speak about balance, speak in terms of skillpoints.

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Not gamebreaking? With all respect, do you even know anything about playing a Jedi to make this assumption? I'll give you an example. I was hunted by a MBH/MSL today (examined his template) who was grouped with his DROID (presumably a Med droid lvl 110). He had his SL buffs going. The result of this encounter? A one shot incap for 3168 pts of damage. Mind you, I am a full temp double mastery Jedi, not a grinding paddie or a dabbler. I was not food or spice buffed, but was at full 3k health when the attack occured. I was TEF'd and incapped in the same instance. Standing up from the incap, and doing the only thing I could, a heal and wham, incapped again. Get my drift here?

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Message Edited by Sylow on 10-21-2005 01:10 PM

Here's an example of a problem that could arise when a jedi is grouped with a squad leader and gets attacked by a BH.

When retreat is fixed, the SL can easily hit retreat, ( if the SL is on the BH side, or if he just doesn't know what he's doing) causing the jedi to lose all his action and mind, then being unable to do any any defensive or offensive actions.

That isn't BH vs Jedi specific that will only hurt Jedi. That will hurt anyone and everyone in Jedi vs BH, PvP, and PvE. That skill is a TPK (total party kill) just waiting to happen.

very good point

I've seen SL buffs in several BH v/s Jedi situations, with said SL buffs being on either or both ends.

SL buffs should be removed the instant a BH attacks the Jedi mark. Regardless of the side the buffs are on, its unbalancing, with the degree of the unbalance depending on the knowledge of the character. SL buffs are to benefit a member of a GROUP. BH v/s Jedi is meant to be a "non-group" sort of thing.

Message Edited by Jhaeryna_Akaele on 10-22-2005 05:42 AM

I don't think BHs should be able to group while on a Jedi's mission. No group, no group buff. Unless of course the BH has SL in his template, but thats a little different.

Message Edited by Skwall on 10-23-2005 01:07 AM