Squad Leader Archive
Thread: MORE DEV ADVICE: Here we go again ... Fixing the BH / JEDI system.
Aye, but what if it is intentional?
ObsidianWrath wrote:
I don't want to see SL/BH hybrids using my profession in a way that was never intended to "one-shot" Jedi and such.
Damn, I see your point about it being intentional. whatever, they probably decided to be lazy about this and just let the changes go into effect, then nerf SL down as it gets used and nerf cried on. Still, you dont see any BH/SLs around right now, and with the history on FOTMs, I'll just watch as the SL upgrade go downhill 
Darth_Sushi wrote:
Aye, but what if it is intentional?
If it is intentional, then I think the Devs screwed up somewhere, honestly. 
I can understand the rationale there, and if it is intentional, then there's no basis for this thread ... however, it is an inarguable fact that if it *is* intentional, the Devs are intentionally steering Squad Leader, as a profession, away from the purpose that it was designed for and tailoring it to be (potentially) a meaningless "/win" for bounty hunter dabblers.
Personally, I would consider that to be an extremely unpleasant slap across the face for all that we have worked so hard to attain. We would be the FOTM "instawin" dabbler profession, and I don't think any of us want that ... this is provided, of course, that these numbers are accurate.
shadowdragon2k wrote:
the problem is. useing this system not only is co-ordinateing an attack against a single jedi going to be harder, but they will ultimately stay grouped with SL's all the time for such a massive boost in their offense this will lead to them doing nothing but pure brute force. and its not ment to be like that a jedi like anyone else should use tactics. a BH should use a little more but still.
I can understand where you're coming from in your statement ... however, I would point out one thing.
There is no evidence right now to suggest that a Jedi receiving a Squad Leader buff is boosted anywhere NEAR the lethality level of a ranged figther.
Now, if you can show me screen shots of Jedi using Dervish for 6000 damage in PVP (after armor and such) ... yeah, we'll talk. Honestly, I'll agree with you compeletely. I'm just basing this proposal on the information at hand, however. I honestly don't think that an SL buff, as they exist currently, will be as effective for a Jedi as it is for a Rifleman, for example.
Prove me wrong. I'm not saying that as a flame, I'm legitimately asking you to. If you can, definitively, I will probably concede my point and back your proposal. I just doubt that that is the case, right now.
ObsidianWrath wrote:
damanone wrote:
HisHer proposal grants Jedi the ability to get SL buffs where a BH can’t. How do you see that as not a nerf?
For starters, I would argue that there is already an extreme amount of animosity between the Bounty Hunter and Jedi communities. You're worried about adding fuel to the flames over something little, like this?
The Bounty Hunter gets to pick the time and place of the battle. The Jedi does not. Does an intelligent Bounty Hunter attack a fully-buffed Jedi with "uber" foods and doctor buffs burning, including Adrenal from Doctors and such? Not bloody likely, I should think. Following your trail of logic, I think we should remove all foods and Doctor buffs from the Jedi / BH duel as well. I think it should be entirely based on skills. Hell, let's nerf SEA's as well, because that can create a tactical edge. The reality of the situation is that if a Bounty Hunter has a Squad Leader in their group when a fight starts, they're looking to exploit. If a Jedi is grinding with a Squad Leader when he gets attacked by a Bounty Hunter, that BH was stupid. The Jedi was minding his own business, and the Bounty Hunter should be able to see that he has a Squad Leader buff and decide whether or not he wants to engage, regardless. That's exactly the way it is now with foods and doctor buffs, and if the Jedi is in a squad fighting NPC's or in PVP, he's using the Squad Leader buff for legitimate purposes. It should not be robbed of him, just as a Doctor buff or food buff should not be.
And in response to your comment on my above citation, regarding the Battle of Mogadishu ... I think you need to research your history a little. If you honestly believe that "Group A Big! = GROUP A WIN!" then you have a serious problem with your understanding of military tactics and their strategic implementation. That battle was decidedl entirely by training and professional leadership, and that is an undeniable fact. If you want to argue it with me, find some facts to back up your point and we'll get into it ... but historians will be on my side, and I will win.
Message Edited by ObsidianWrath on 10-16-2005 01:56 PM
Jedi are not superior to BH.
I’m a pre-cu Jedi with a pretty decent saber. I know what foods to take. I’ve max BE clothes for Gen/LS speed and accuracy. I am person who runs overt 85-95% of the time.
I had a bh who had a dmg/sac capped laser rifle and with a pup I had my sac down to 65. I had some of the best battle armor on Bria with a 75% AB slice. I had some of the best possible foods. I had tapes that only got me half way to the caps. Yet I still did way more damage vs any other profession template in the game.
BH
I can tell you from personal experience I could take on pretty much any Jedi with my BH and defeat them even on a full on 1vs1 with time for them to prepare. For those pre-cu that I knew where harder I would use tactics just so the fight would not last 3hrs. If I did not kill a Jedi in the first 30 sec than the fight would last for ever but I would eventually win do to them running out of force or they would just run.
Jedi
The fights would go about the same way as my BH where I would win with in a matter of seconds or the fight would last forever. I’ve gone a good hour and a half against a melee/healing stacker before I actually won. Jedi in its current state is not 1.5 x’s stronger than normal professions.
I would /Respec my Jedi but I spent too much effort into building him up to where he is today.
I’ve seen master swords/pik/doc templates own the hell out of pre-cu Jedi. I’ve yet to met a Jedi who can hit for 1.4k like I’ve seen master swordsman do. Thank god for steak, lol. That’s against a Jedi who had FA up. Even with power hit Jedi can get maybe 1.1k if they are lucky and that’s having almost a perfect saber.
I’m not going to get into a historical debate over the art of war. I don’t have time to start quoting over the fundamentals of combat. If you would like to write a constructive research paper I would be more than willing to read it.
I’m not trying to bash on your post I just think there is a better alternative. This is my last post and I had a good time debating with you.
BadChef wrote:
Personnaly I'd rather jedi were unable to use the SL buffs in a bh/jedi tef as well, especialy since jedi in this game are'nt much for being real jedi. That's what I'd favor but the games been dumbed down enough already. Jedi are supposed to work with and help others, but the reality of this game is, they'l bend the rules or exploit any mechanic possible. Idealy BH's should be working alone or maybe with a partner, and on that note, should have a few passives or abilities to be more versitile and self sufficiant. Actualy thinking about it, some of the jedi abilities should have been placed with BH's but that's a whole other catfight.
Message Edited by ObsidianWrath on 10-16-2005 02:21 PM
damanone wrote:
ObsidianWrath wrote:
damanone wrote:
Would a larger group be more susceptible to a higher moral vs a smaller group? Logically speaking if you are part of a larger group you should feel more optimistic about a possible victory. Would you rather be part of an army that had 200+ members or part of one who only had 10?
The solution I posted above does not limit interaction between other professions. Your proposal on the other hand does and for that reason this game is in its current state. The only way I can see your idea making it to light is if the devs see this as an easy way out. As a coder, I understand what it would take to implement your idea vs mine.
Morale, sure ... but we don't have Morale in this game.
I don't see how Morale translates into effective leadership, however. For example, I will cite the Battle of Mogadishu on 3 October 1993. One hundred American Army Rangers / Delta Force personnel were cut off and surrounded in the Somalian capital of Mogadishu by over ten thousand drugged-up and heavily armed militia.
Only 19 of the Americans lost their lives, which is steep for a force of 100, but considering the odds and the fact that several thousand Somalis were wounded or killed ... it's remarkable. That's the effect of good training and good leadership. Numbers alone don't effect tactical implementation.
I'm still not sure how you can say that my proposition limits the interaction between other professions in any significant way. The very nature of the BH TEF is that of exclusion -- isolating those two professions and locking out all the other ones. How am I being any more "exclusive," in your opinion?
Message Edited by ObsidianWrath on 10-16-2005 01:31 PM
I would consider that a freak occurrence at best. The only thing your proposal will cause is animosity between 2 professions, bh/Jedi. You make one party happy but the other is felt like they've been left in the dark. There currently is massive disrespect going on between the two professions and this will only add to it. Seeing as you are only a SL and have not witnessed this first hand I would not expect you to understand it. I on the other hand have participated on both sides of the spectrum.
I got a newsflash for ya. There already IS animosity between Jedi and Bounty Hunters, and it's being added to on TC by allowing dabbling-squad leaders to give FULL self-buffs so that they can ONE-SHOT Jedi. If you can't see that, you're a complete moron. Your argument about "making one party happy" completely caves in on itself, since you're essentially saying that it's okay for the BH to have one-shot capability, but not the Jedi. Allowing a grouped Jedi to keep SL buffs does not guarantee a win for the Jedi, as the BH may still prevail. However, allowing a BH to one-shot gives the Jedi absolutely no chance.
Your whole "morale" argument doesn't hold water either. There is no morale in the game to begin with outside of the players. It is not a game mechanic, so don't even attempt to suggest it as being one. And by the way...great idea there...let's allow large groups to get bigger squad leader buffs...that's GREAT for game balance...except that it isn't. Bigger does not equal better (nor should it), contrary to what you seem to think. And your wrong about the "Battle of Mog", as cited by the OP. That instance was indeed a a fluke, but historically there have been many recorded instances of a smaller fighting force emerging "victorious" over a larger one or inflicting massive casualties on the enemy despite being outnumbered. I'm not going to get into military history here, but many battles during the Civil War were won by the South, and the South, the majority of the time was outnumbered. It is true that the South lost the war, but on a battle-by-battle basis, they more often than not managed to trump the North. The size of a group should have no effect on buff strength whatsover.
The Jedi have taken a massive hit to their godliness, and they are but a shadow of what they used to be. Now, despite the fact that I'm Sith, I do not think the Jedi profession should be insta-win. And to that end, a BH/SL should not be insta-win either, which is what you are happily advocating. Jedi are currently being perma-snared on Test Center, on top of the one-shotting, yet you say that taking away the one shotting will only make animosity worse. How you can even suggest that is beyond me. The only thing the one-shotting with SL buffs is doing is making life easier for the BH (who admittedly were nerfed for a long time, but is now no longer the case).
From a purity standpoint...I can't stand the notion of Squad Leaders becoming "BH buddies" as the OP said. I hate dabbling...and I always have as ithasturned into a "quest to be uber" rather than a game-enriching experience. To be honest, I wish this game had a more WoW-like system (and I hate WoW) whereby you were a single dedicated profession with some paltry side skills to round you out, but that's neither here nor there. There shouldNEVER be this much power gained from sosmall an investment, but presently, that is the case on TC. And in case you haven't checked the Jedi boards, the so-called animosity that you think willgrowas a result of the OP's ideaalready exists. And it exists because BH/SL's are now getting a massive advantage over their prey...and it's a gamebreaking advantage presently.
I've voiced my opinion and I hope this does not make it live. There has to be a better alternative to this ridiculous situation.
Yeah, and I'm voicing my opinion and hoping that this does make it live. I don't see a better alternative, and I certainly don't see you coming up with one either. The OP's idea is unbiased for the sake of the game as a whole. I know for a fact she hates Jedi, because I've seen her berate them before. This however goes beyond personal dislike and into the realm of SOE making the game suck more. Her proposal harms no one except "wannabe-1337-teh buer- BH's" who want no challenge in the game. BH's can still "gang" up on a mark without being grouped, so in reality, they aren't harmed either...they just have to do things a bit differently and may have some payout issues.
HarlequinMK19 wrote:
...
/applaud
Thank you.
That is exactly what I have been saying, and exactly what my opinion is on this issue.
There is no evidence right now to suggest that a Jedi with the SL buffs is going to be anywhere near as powerful as the BH/SL hybrid that's currently one-shotting Jedi.
Furthermore, the Devs' strategy for Squad Leader is simple ... we can see it in Thunderheart's most recent "Announcements" post regarding snares and such. Squad Leader is meant to be the anti-snare profession in this game, and probably a balancing factor for Melee professions. Now, honestly I'm not a very big fan of melee, as Harlequin pointed out ... but still, I think SL is balanced for Melee professions and Jedi right now, in a purely mechanical sense. If someone can show me a screen shot of a Jedi utterly decimating a BH as a direct result of SL buffs, I will change my tune ... I'm not kidding.
Right now, I think the new snare/root system, prospective heal/action-nerf, and other changes going into Pub 24 / ToOW are designed, along with SL, to balance the game. BH/SL is a fluke that needs to be ironed out, so far as I can see. I'm not saying I'm "right," but that's all the evidence I have right now, so that's what my proposal is based on.
Logic, I also believe, is on the side of this proposal.
- we then need to recognize you no longer can apply all the combat states with 1 sl in the group (fixed on tc I hear) so you would need to have been grouped with multiple sl to gain the benefit of all states
- (one of the reasons I called for 1 buff active per sl at a time and only a max of 2 sls being able to do them in group)
- they have to be preexisting before the combat (and they only last 10 mins so if you are silly enough to allow a group of players get near you and not run as a Jedi....)
- this could be mitgated a bit more by reducing the length of the buff by 1/2
- The multiplers apply both ways - Jedi get the same damage boosts and defense boosts that a BH would have.
- Jedi can only be attacked if they create Visibility
- Both sides can have buffs almost constantly applied to them if they are grouped. Who here does not have a timer on their buff actions that tells them to reapply to their herd. Grouping is encouraged even for leveling (is why visibility was removed from group members)
- a new buff overrides an old one with a complete new timer
- reapply every 1/2 the length of a timer and the worst you would enter a bh/jedi combat (from both sides is with a 1/2 time buff)