Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Where's the 60 gunner
irott wrote:
Ok obi... you have some good points, but let me try to explain how this might work.
With your first point you say that no one is going to give up their xp to man this weapon. The point is this would only be used in GCW PvP. Using a stationary weapon for creature hunting doesnt make much sense as the creatures move around a whole lot.... and this much organization isnt really needed in hunts. This is about war... how to defend your squad, and maybe get the leg up against the other side.
And this is what this thread is about, working out the details. One idea is to make the cert to operate the weapon in the higher level elite marksman classes.A commando can do much more damage with their own weapons... I mean thats what their job is.
I have heard some say that it would make SL's into another commando. That's BS. When you lead a squad now, so you sit in the back and hit /rally? HELL NO! You are fighting, blasting away with your gun or controling your pets, helping out in any way you can. This will simply make us more helpfull to our squad.
What would make us helpfull to the squad is to provide them with a better way to kill the enemy, not kill the enemy ourselves. Sure we should have combat skills to back up our squad.. But we shouldnt be the heart of the squad, we should be the brain.
You brought up a lot of critical ideas and thats exaclty what proposals like this need. Keep em comming Obi
What about when I feel like going and raiding Tuskens (not everyone takes the caves)? Or doing Faction missions?
Curses!! Im on chilastra yet I have no clue what that reference is.
Anyway as far as status effects... go carbineer. Orget one into your party. The point is to not take away anything from other professions. I agree with you that stat effects are very usefull in PvE... So much more so than PvP. I had a post a while back asking for AoE stat effects, AoE threaten/warning/suppression shots. Being based off of ranged weapon support. But then I realized that many of these are found in carbineer....
I did post and idea for having 3 different stationary team weapons based on one of the three elite marksman professions. I think it was a low damage quick firing gun for pistoleers, a slower AoE status effect weapon for carbineers and a Low speed High damage gun for riflemen.
Im confused about your reference to paying 35k for a weapon you can only use once in a while... I would think thats the point.A SL can only use his skills while grouped which is not always. Anyway...
As far as PvE goes I think that passive buffs and commands like /aimfor and /painttarget support it much better. Its hard to put in skills for group creature hunting... So like you said PvE would be stuck with the same broken skills we have now... Thats what we need to brainstorm more.
What I ment by the 35k is that someone, a pistoleer, lets say, has to buy this squad support weapon. It's a heavy repeater gun, so it's going to take a lot of parts. That means it will be expensive, just look at the T-21 or rocket launcher.
You have supported not having AoE stat effects in that carabeener already has it. To that I can only respond that so does rifleman. And pikeman. And, as far as I know, several other combat professions. It is not as if we are going to be able to craft. That is one class specific. Again, I could see this argument hold true if you were talking about, say, mind bleeds, but not for stat effects.
I really do want the support of as many professions as possible, so how about this:
Sone stat shots, the ones that are most important to those who use them most (carabeeners), are not AoE. Maby have an AoE intimidate or something (that actually sounds cool, now that I said it. 
), as well asthe others.Perhaps a briefAoE blind? The possablilites are really endless.
Posture change shots would be AoE. 
This would have to be countered with a slightly faster fire time. Maby 5-6 second base speed? we could apply stat changes fairly quickly, but not as efficiently as a master carabeener.
P.S.
Idea: What if we got a shot that made someone tumble to kneeling or prone, depending on thei previous posture? They "dove for cover". 
I agree that one use would suck. I disagree with a lot of the other points about mobility and certifications and stepping on the toes of Commandos. I also agree that a one time use would suck. Make the weapon placeable but in order to move it you have to pack it up and set it up again in the new spot. The gun would decay like a normal weapon, but perhaps at a greater speed. It's not like these things will last forever, but a good weaponsmith should be able to keep them going for a while.
It should not take two people to fire the weapon, only two people to set it up. If you go read the links that Thulian provided it talks about one person being able to fire the E-web, but at a lower power setting, reducing the rate of fire and the damage. If you have somebody regulating the power then you could have a higher fire rate and a higher damage output.
The mobility argument: In the Empire Strikes Back the snowtroopers were assualting Echo Base and the drug the E-Web with them (which is a heavy repeating blaster) intothe docking bay. So there is a movie reference for the immovable gun. In the US army all heavy weapons are fixed. The lighter weapons you are talking about with the M-60 are personal weapons, things that are represented in SWG by the Carabiner and Riflemen professions with their T21 and whatever good carabiner weapon there is (is there one?). Heavy weapons, IE the M2 .50cal machinegun and the MK-19 automatic grenade launcher can only be fired from a fixed mount or vehicle mount. For mobility you mount the weapon to a vehicle, for a fixed defence you use it with a tripod. Mortars are a fixed site weapon, carried into battle by infantry and set in place to use.
The Certification argument: No weapon in SWG requires a certification in order to use it. I am a pistoleer (Smuggler/Squadleader with novice pistoleer) but I could still pick up a T21 and point it at the enemy and fire. Sure, a commando, bounty hunter, pistoleer, carabiner, rifleman might not want to shoot the E-Web, but how about that Doctor you brought with you, or the entertainer, or the artisan, or weaponsmith, or the armorer, or the chef? How about that creature handler, maybe he hasn't spent a lot of points to gain an elite gun profession, how about that brawler who has a lot of wounds? How about the squad leader himself? The lack of certification means that the weapon would do less damage and decay quicker, a fair trade off. Perhaps a certification for it could be place in the Heavy Weapon line of commando, and it would give heavy weapon experience, then the commando might not be so opposed to the gun, or in the rifleman, or carabiner professions.
Schematic Argument: We would not be the crafter of the weapon, we would be the one assembling the parts. This ability could be given to all combat classes, but since squad leaders would be the only one able to set it up, why makeothers put it together?
Remember, we are talking about a SQUAD LEADER weapon here, and all of our abilities require a group to use. You don't have to make some other team member set it up, but it would require you to be thegroup leader to set it up. Another benefit to having a fixed site weapon is that unless the weapon is targeted to be destroyed, whenever the person opperating the weapon is incapped, another team mate could man it!
If you want a personal weapon, take an elite combat profession, that's one of the great things about this game, you can be more than one profession and you can mix and combine skills and dabble and piss people off who think their profession should be pure (kinda like the empire with it's treatment of aliens). I like the diversity of this game, come and dabble as a squadleader, dabble as a smuggler, make up your own class. I wanted to be a commando slicer, not a heavy weapon specialist. I wanted to sneak into an enemy base and slice open doors and turn off base defences so my squad mates could assualt. I wanted to engage in hand to hand combat in the close quarters of an enemy's hallway when I was discovered, or just hold them off with my pistol until my teammates arrived to pull my fat out of the fire.
A crew served weapon is a great idea for a squadleader. Give us the fire power to make a difference for the group, but don't make us the only ones who can use it.
First let me address this, the only true flaw I saw in your post.
The lighter weapons you are talking about with the M-60 are personal weapons, things that are represented in SWG by the Carabiner and Riflemen professions with their T21 and whatever good carabiner weapon there is (is there one?).
The T-21 is like a sniper rifle. A .50 cal Barret, perhaps. Carabeen weapons are like M4s or MP5s. There is nothing in this game currently paralleled by an M-60 or a SAW.
I believe what you are saying is that we should have one gun that can be placed like a camp and packed up to move it. Anyone can use it. But what about specials? Can anyone use the specials? If so, will this gun only take up one skill box? This will be a lot of development for just one skill box. If not, would it be worth it? Remember, it has very low base damage output.
I like the idea of setting it up like a camp for all to use, but I don't see that as practical.
I am in 100% agreement with the idea of us having to lead a squad to both take out this weapon and to fire it. (the second part to prevent people from doing what they do with faction armor and faction pets)
The only practical, helpful, and balanced way to impliment this it to have it be handheld, like the SAW. Remember, though, that I suggested we counter the ablility to move with a penalty to movement (I said minus whatever we give a squad as a bonus).
I hate to draw mypost into a circle, but how can you object to the idea ofimmoblization equaling death in PvP? This has already been proven with rifleman's cover abilities.
Tumble to gives added defence durring posture change (where you are normally vulnerable). It also prevents the firing of specials.
But, yes, a break would be nice.
Carry on, people, carry on.
Ob194:
The T-21 is like a sniper rifle. A .50 cal Barret, perhaps. Carabeen weapons are like M4s or MP5s. There is nothing in this game currently paralleled by an M-60 or a SAW.
Yeah, umm, a .50 cal barret is dead accurate for nearly 800 m, and deadly still at 2km, and able to take out an engine block at 2.5 km. my t21 is worthless at any range, its friggin slow, and does inconsistant damage. I'm thinking that a Barret, which blows a hole the size of a melon in people, does not have an equivalent in game. The t21 loses at range to a decent pistol. Effectivley, the t21 is not a great group augmenting weapon. The m4 is what a rifleman should have to actually improve a group under a squad leader, its fast, powerful, and versatile, and has a place. Carbines are simply shortened, stockless rifles, like the M1 carbine, it uses the same7.62mm round, but the weapon is lighter than the M1 rifle, it was normally given to officers and such, while pistols are short range, up close weapons. They all have a place in a group, and under a SL.
I don't really know where I was going with this, but hey, just offering it as an observation.
Presence is silence, spirit is fire, voice is the storm
I like the ideas, but lets not limit ourselves to just one addition to increase or combat effectiveness.
The E-web is right out of star wars, and should be included. It doesn't need to be a SL specific weapon to use, maybe it comes with Ranged Support 4. Seems like working similar to a camp would be best, and without question the special moves associated with it should be suppression, stopping, and AOE style attacks. Maybe these special moves will be SL specific?And I thought the idea of one person manning it is possible, but two will make it more effective and faster. This allows non-combat personell such as doctors, CM's, even CH's to help on the BF. All it should require is standing within range of the gun and not being involved in combat personally. Docs can still run out and heal, CM's can still heal and poison, CH's can direct creatures . ..
Along the same lines, shouldn't a SL get a faction discount when requisitioning personel and turrets? We're natural leaders, we should be treated by our factions as such. The E-Web could be added as a requisional item as well.
And of Course, Artillery Strikes. This is one of the oldest tactics still used in war today, and is the epitome of the SL. Taking cover next to the radioman with a map, screaming "Check your Fire!" This has got to be a faction perk, and i liked what you were saying about AOE dmg w/ stunn effects
Sorry, I was under the impression that the T-21 was the light repeating blaster rifle that Trooper Davin Felth was using in the cantina in Episode IV, not a sniper weapon. If you can't hit with the thing try using rally and steady aim.
In my propostal I gave the specials for the E-Web to the squad leader. The gun schematic is in the tactics line at level 2 and the first special is in the strategy line at level 2, /supressiveFire. Then at level 4 they would gain /finalProtectiveLine which would double the speed, but also destroy the weapon faster. I'm sure there are other great abilities that could be added as well as other weapons (Moratrs anyone?).
I really like the suggestion of the squad leader being able to call for air strikes and artillery bombardamaents, but don't tie them into faction. I've been trying to avoid faction only abilities for those squad leaders who don't want to participate in the GCW. Squad leaders could buy radios and encryption disks to use to call for fire. The encryption disks would have a limited number of uses until the encryption was changed and a new disk had to be used.
The E-Web is a heavy repeating blaster rifle and as such it should do heavy damage with heavy armor penetration. Perhaps have it's base attack be AOE with lower damage, lighter penetration but give the SL the ability to order a pinpoint attack, which would cause a concentrated strike on the target for greater damage/armor penetration. It is after all an anti-vehicle weapon.
Thulium,
As I've advocated before, I think the SL should be keeping the big picture. He cannot do that if he is looking down the sights of his own "special" weapon. He just becomes a Commando at that point. Enabling a crew served weapon or calling in indirect fire is the way to go.
Beeve wrote:
I agree that it isn't entirely fair to make some squad leader abilities only available through faction perks. I'm sure there might be some neutral SL's out there who would be pissed. But, it seems that someone who desired the SL life would already want a part in the GCW. Mercenary SL's might just have a disadvantage over SL's with the resources of the Empire or Rebelion behind them. This is why i said airstrikes and artillery bombardment should be faction, because it would take a military to set up artilery and send in air support. I also think they should only be used in faction missions and PvP, cuz it's really silly to think of an artillery strike on a kryat dragon. Misallocation of resources anyone . . .
What about all these imps running around with 2-3 AT-ST's shooting evything in sight? Is that not a misallocation of resources? Granted they are the Empire, but still.
RogueArcher wrote:
Ob194:
The T-21 is like a sniper rifle. A .50 cal Barret, perhaps. Carabeen weapons are like M4s or MP5s. There is nothing in this game currently paralleled by an M-60 or a SAW.
Yeah, umm, a .50 cal barret is dead accurate for nearly 800 m, and deadly still at 2km, and able to take out an engine block at 2.5 km. my t21 is worthless at any range, its friggin slow, and does inconsistant damage. I'm thinking that a Barret, which blows a hole the size of a melon in people, does not have an equivalent in game. The t21 loses at range to a decent pistol. Effectivley, the t21 is not a great group augmenting weapon. The m4 is what a rifleman should have to actually improve a group under a squad leader, its fast, powerful, and versatile, and has a place. Carbines are simply shortened, stockless rifles, like the M1 carbine, it uses the same7.62mm round, but the weapon is lighter than the M1 rifle, it was normally given to officers and such, while pistols are short range, up close weapons. They all have a place in a group, and under a SL.
I don't really know where I was going with this, but hey, just offering it as an observation.
Presence is silence, spirit is fire, voice is the storm
The T-21 is the in game version of the Barrett. It is the gun with the largest damage per shot, and it is more accurate at long range than almost every other gun. It has huge recoil, ie, slow speed. It is a Barrett limited by in game mechanics and ballancing.
The M-16 is comparable to the Laser Rifle, and the M4 is to the M-16 as the Laser Carbine is to the Laser Rifle. The MP5A4 is E-11 carbine, probably, and the E-11 rifle is a UMP45.
What you're saying is that all SL's should be carabeeners to be effective. I say, why must wemaster two different professions to be good at one? We cannot encorperate carbeens into SL, because they already have a class like that. They have no class, however, that usesa gun comparable to the SAW. The SAW is, by name, a Squad Automatic Weapon, and it's job is to assist a squad in taking down big stuff. Sounds to me like it matches up.
Powerfull stat effects in a portable, low damage automatic machine gun is the way to go. Note: I'm not saying it should be kinetic damage, I'm just saying that it should follow the same principle.