Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Where's the 60 gunner
Another thing that would be cool is if you could have something like the Puma from Halo (err...excuse me, I mean Warthog....) with mounted commando weaponry, something that could perhaps combat the bloody AT-ST's in combat. Just a thought, a very, very, improbable thought, but hey, such is life, a string of dumb ideas....
Plus, something along the lines of an m-249 would be sweet action for SL, although normally the m-249 is for support and cover, and chalk leaders don't usually cover that role.
Face up! The rifleman way!
Forget the handheld weapon for SL's. Putting your eyes behind aimpoints takes your eyes off the big picture. IMHO Indirect fire would be a great SL combat support weapon. Have the ability to call in an air strike or artillery that does area damage, maybe knockdowns and stuns and also works to damage structures. The strike would be called in via the overhead map, like you get when placing a structure.
Granted, the availability of air support when attacking ona planet that is completely controlled by enemy forces may be a bit of a stretch, but if we want the SL to have a unique combat ability without creeping over to commando weapons or medic abilities, then indirect fire is the only thing left.
good idea break out the hog and rock and roll!...let me pull out my blackhawk and i will door gun for you...no for reals good idea!
Personally, I am loving the E-Web Blaster ideas and discussions for Squad Leader weaponry. (For those that don't know a great description of the E-Web is available here, and the info from the CCG is here.)
What I am unsure about is the overall support for an SL only weapon just for the sake of us having a weapon. Personally, I can see some justification for it, but I also see some drawbacks... To me, the bottom line is that we really need some unique weapon in some form or another. As was pointed out, we are similar to Combat Medics in that we're both combat support professions...however, CM's get poisons and diseases rather than a traditional weapon. It would make sense for us to have a team deployed weapon, especially one that required a certain amount of cooperation among squadmembers to operate efficiently.
So what I'd like to get is a better feel for how much support there is for a more "traditional" weapon (ie. equipped by SL's only) like an M60in addition to or instead of a group deployed weapon weapon like the E-Web. If it were entirely up to me, I'd relegate the M60 discussion and primarily push for the E-Web, but I don't want to fail in my duty to represent this community as a whole, so let me know.
I think this weapon, inthe Star Wars storiesterms, would be the Heavy Repeating Blaster. Its been a while since I read any of this stuff, but its a very large blaster that requires 3 troopers to operate (one gunner 2 assistants). It deals out massive damage, can even damage vehicles somewhat. Remember when the Snow Storm Troopers over-ran the Rebel base on Hoth, and the Millenium Falcon was just taking off and shot those 3 troopers running in and trying to set up? They were a Heavy Repeating Blaster squad, if I remember right.
Matadore, there are two viewpoints here on the thread. Darthlithic's original idea about haveing a heavy weapon for the SL to use themselves... and the idea for a team weapon that can be opperated by designated members of the squad.
I agree with you about the heavy weapons thing... I said somewhere in another post that it would just be taking away from commandos. My idea is to have a cert for SL's to set up a e-web/heavy repeater and then the ability to designate someone to use it (sans himself). This is just starting to tie in with designation skills. The new idea is to be able to have subgroups within the squad itself. So this one would be... a support fire group? Or something like that.
I really only see a use for this in the GCW... PvP and PvE. Taking out a group of dewbacks with this seems like overkill... but then again... against large hunts like krayts and kimos they would come in handy. So thats another item to add to the list. GCW specific or not. I am actualy leaning more towards GCW since creature PvE is pretty simple and doesnt need much organization.
Matadore wrote:
Thulium,
As I've advocated before, I think the SL should be keeping the big picture. He cannot do that if he is looking down the sights of his own "special" weapon. He just becomes a Commando at that point. Enabling a crew served weapon or calling in indirect fire is the way to go.
But in my experience, the "big picture" to this point has been sitting on the outer edge of combat waiting for your mind to regen enough to kick in another round of /rally. That's not my idea of a fun profession.
"Crew Served Weapon" vs. SL equipped weapon, however... I personally prefer "Crew Served" as well, if it's a matter of one or the other. If we're going to get a cert for a personally equipped item, I too would prefer it be something like a commlink as discussed elsewhere. But I'm not entirely opposed to a unique weapons cert for SL's...I just haven't heard a good StarWarsy suggestion of one yet.
I typed up a very well thought out and beautiful post, but it got eaten by SOE's POS forum. I will attempt to give a short version, as I am too frustrated to type out the entire thing.
The idea of a crew serve weapon will not work. Here are my reasons for this:
1) How many of you know pistoleers, carabeeners, riflemen, commandos, smugglers, or bounty hunters that would give up their xp to be the SL's gopher boy/ammo man? I know I wouldn't. It would be boring, and there is no way I would get, say, flamethrower xp from regulating power to an E-Web.
2) By nature it would have to be powerfull. Here is why: I've been in groups with all masters. Now this gun is going to take away two masters from my squad. It has to fill their shoes. That means it has to do 1k-2k base damage, -6 speed, and, because it's a freeken E-Web, AoE. Ok, fine. It filled their spots. They don't need the xp, and they just want to sit back and regulate power. Would never happen, but we'll assume the ideal. But now you are in a group with two n00bs. You and two n00bs now deal out 1k-2k dmg, -6 speed, and AoE? Every class (well, maby not merchant) would cry nerf, and rightfully so. And don't spout some crap about "Well, regulate damage based on the level of the people opperating it!" If you had high level players, they wouldn't want to. If you had low level players, it wouldn't be worth it.
This gun would be helpfull to the squad, but is it fair? Fun? Practical?
The "60" idea is perfect.
I have heard some say that it would make SL's into another commando. That's BS. When you lead a squad now, so you sit in the back and hit /rally? HELL NO! You are fighting, blasting away with your gun or controling your pets, helping out in any way you can. This will simply make us more helpfull to our squad.
If you cannot manage shootingat something, and keeping an objective eye on the big picture, you need to more practice. That was why the old xp system rocked. SLs had plenty of time to perfect their art. Those who didn't care to, quit.
It applies stat changes, so it is helpfull. It is low damage, so it is ballanced. It allows squad members to kill things easier without stealing their xp, so it is fun.
I think that this weapon needs to be a stationary AoE weapon that does minimal damage (fully experimented with OQ990+ materials shouldn't even break 100 max damage), but we have specials for to do very effective stun, dizzy, knockdown, intimidate, etc. When vehicles come around, it could even provide "dum-dum's" for destroying heavy armor (Totally destroy someone's composite, but leave themselves relatively unscathed, just flat on their ass).
And for sure, *we* should be able to fire it. No one else probably will want to. I agree that maybe a DE has to come along to power it or perform detailed maintenance, but we should be able to operate it. In fact, I think we should be able to craft it. Not all of it mind you, I imagine 80% of the components would come from Master Artisans or Weaponsmiths, but we should have the final schematic (all good soldiers know how to strip & assemble their gun). Maybe WS's would have it too, but we should have the option.
Just my $.02
I don't know about having the schematic. We definetly don't want to step on the toes of any other profession. Plus, every combat profession would get schematics, based on the same logic.
And why should it be stationary? I ask you this, what group of soldiers, twenty people or less, have a fixed emplacement? None. They aren't practicle for that fiew people.
Perhaps, though, we could get a movement reduction when it is equipt. That would keep with the idea of a big, heavy (but mobile) squad support gun. I'm thinking something along the lines of -(whatever movement bonuses we give the squad), be them burst run or terrain negotiation.
Ok obi... you have some good points, but let me try to explain how this might work.
With your first point you say that no one is going to give up their xp to man this weapon. The point is this would only be used in GCW PvP. Using a stationary weapon for creature hunting doesnt make much sense as the creatures move around a whole lot.... and this much organization isnt really needed in hunts. This is about war... how to defend your squad, and maybe get the leg up against the other side.
And this is what this thread is about, working out the details. One idea is to make the cert to operate the weapon in the higher level elite marksman classes.A commando can do much more damage with their own weapons... I mean thats what their job is.
I have heard some say that it would make SL's into another commando. That's BS. When you lead a squad now, so you sit in the back and hit /rally? HELL NO! You are fighting, blasting away with your gun or controling your pets, helping out in any way you can. This will simply make us more helpfull to our squad.
What would make us helpfull to the squad is to provide them with a better way to kill the enemy, not kill the enemy ourselves. Sure we should have combat skills to back up our squad.. But we shouldnt be the heart of the squad, we should be the brain.
You brought up a lot of critical ideas and thats exaclty what proposals like this need. Keep em comming Obi
Ok, I will.
And, I swear to God, I will tip 1k to the first person to get this reference, if you are on chilastra.
I would be much for you idea, O Peers, if what was urged main reason to persuade did not dissuade me most, and seem to cast ominous conjecture on the whole success.
The point is this would only be used in GCW PvP.
Exactly. The rest of the time we would be stuck with our useless skills. Stat effects like Stun and Blind are still very usefull in PvE, and the "60" idea would provide universal benifit.
Ask a rifleman how often he/she goes into cover. I'm a rifleman, and I will answer you this: never. Why? Without some mobility, you are bantha fodder. Making this weapon immoble (without it being surrounded by a bunker, but then we get back to that idea) would be suicide for anyone dumb enough to man it.
One idea is to make the cert to operate the weapon in the higher level elite marksman classes.
Exactly. The only way for this idea to be implamented it do give it to some other class, and let it be unlocked by an SL. That is a good idea (new weapons/skills when grouped with an SL), but not for this gun. It would have to be more class specific. Riflemen get a better rifle, etc. Good idea, but this is a different discussion.
Also, I wouldn't expect someone to pay 35k for a weapon that they can only use once in a while. These people solo, too.
What would make us helpfull to the squad is to provide them with a better way to kill the enemy, not kill the enemy ourselves.
Exactly, I could not have said it better myself. Unfortunetly, the E-Web idea does put the big damage in our hands. The ways around that (squad member assistance or weapons cert) we have discussed, and are not possible.
The only gun that we could have would have to follow the "60" idea. Effects to help the squad, not damage.