Squad Leader Archive

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BlueGlowy wrote:

It's out of context now, but some bozo posted a paragraph or two in one of the other GLvs SLthreadsthat started off with:

"still cant figure out what this minority are trying to get."

And went on to argue about how tiring it was to keep replying to the new idea that Group Leadership isa player function, not a character profession function.

So, I'd have you ask him who the 'majority' is, because I think it was clear I was intended to be in the 'minority' from his post.

Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-08-200509:57 AM

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So the minority are those who want to keep SL as the GL?

Message Edited by LiakyK on 09-08-2005 10:00 AM

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BlueGlowy wrote:

For the7 or so people that comprise the majority of this forum, in case you missed it I'm reposting an excerpt from another thread that tries to explain why removing the restriction on SLs from being player GLs is a good thing. I'm reposting it here, in shortened version, because this is the one threadthat got stickied so it's likely the only thread that matters on this topic now.

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Removing the GL pre-requsite is a 'good' thing for someone like me that would like to play the profession - without having to manage players at the keyboard (for non-character based things). Considerations about the balance or imbalance of having more than one SL in a group applying buffs doesn't factor into this topic for me. The reason is that I expect the SOE development team to change the buffs, not the GL requirement, if a change to how the buffs work is deemed necessary.

I would be one of the new SLs coming in post-revamp...but I'm thinking that SOE is making this effort, at least in part, to bring new players into this profession. This is always a pain for the established majority of a handful of veteran profession forum posters, and I sympathize. But that isn't a primary concern for the minority legion of people that currently don't play the profession for reasons that include just not wanting to have to deal with whiny group members as a Group Leader. I would prefer to delegate such menial duties as group invites/loot splits to another player.

With the removal ofthat playermanagement aspect from the profession, I'mpretty pumped up about the [SL] character I'm trying to kick off now in-between TC server crashes.

Regardless, congratulations on your profession's revamp. If you keep GL out of SL, soon it maybe my profession too.

Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-08-2005 09:45 AM

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!Drevin of DROW!

!!

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KJFett3 wrote:

In the beginning, the majority were the veteran, existing SLs...and they were in favor of SL=GL.

Since then, the new majority are mostly rookiees or Non-SLs(I have seen a coupleformer MSLsmixed in)...they are in favor of SL /= GL

Neither side calling majority or minority is correct anymore as both sides have swelled in numbers and even become highly deluted by non-SLs.

It will be up to the devs to decide how to weed through it all and decide what they want to do at this point.

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you don't want to lead your group

you do want to lead your squad

how exactly is your squad and your group different in this case? Looks to me like you wantone side of a coin without the other.

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Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-08-2005 10:42 AM

Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-08-2005 10:43 AM

Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-08-2005 10:44 AM

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BlueGlowy wrote:

"Looks to me like you wantone side of a coin without the other"

Yes, exactly. Group Leadership is a player responsibility, not a character responsibility. I think SOE has come to realize the error in tying a player mechanic in with a character profession mechanic.

As for the other rewordings of my post, no. I said what I said, and my words stand on their own. Rephrasing them to color them towards your opinion doesn't remove the validity of the statement that Group Leadership requirements are a hinderance to overall success of this profession.

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You said you don't want to lead a group and that you do want to lead a squad. I didn't make that up. Its very clear from your post...I didn't have to "color" them to get that.

You feel that GL is a hinderance and should not be apart of SL = I don't want to be the Group Leader

You are here in the SL forums and talking about usingour skills = I want to be a Squad Leader

Nope, sorry, I may be giving cliff notes, but certainly not changing the idea you are trying to give. If I am wrong, tell me otherwise by restating your stance.

!Drevin of DROW!

!!

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BlueGlowy wrote:

"Looks to me like you wantone side of a coin without the other"

Yes, exactly. Group Leadership is a player responsibility, not a character responsibility. I think SOE has come to realize the error in tying a player mechanic in with a character profession mechanic.

As for the other rewordings of my post, no. I said what I said, and my words stand on their own. Rephrasing them to color them towards your opinion doesn't remove the validity of the statement that Group Leadership requirements are a hinderance to overall success of this profession.

Now, if you *want* to be a bard if/when the GL pre-requisite is removed, that's your call. Or, you can still play your SL character as you've played him/her previously and form your own groups. Or ask to take over GL responsibilities if/when you're allowed to. What this change does is open the door for new people to enter in. It doesn't change how you, as an individual, may wish to run your groups (or waste play time finding a group that will allow you to GL it).

Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-08-2005 10:42 AM

Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-08-2005 10:43 AM

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1 - leadership confusion... ( MY opinion is that leadership has NOTHING to do with your template)

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So how is removing the GL limitation helping out the SL profession any?

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It allows several SLs in one group to feel useful. Under the current system, for example a pistoleer/MSL, when not groupleader (perhaps there is already a MSL leading the group) is reduced to only being a pistoleer.

In the new system, every SL in team will be useful, so they don't feel like being at a loss. Disadvantages of the current system are that it gives all power to the dabblers, doesn't care at all for coordination of the team (what old SLs are all about, after all... the old abilities were helpful and not completely worthless, but if you didn't coordinate your team, you basically were a waste of skillpoints.) and even allows several SLs in team to give drastically contradicting orders which each of them even somewhat enforces with the buffs he gives.

The problem of dabbling and abuseis fixed by the very good suggestion of skill modifiers throughout the complete profession, i won't add that up, i can't match that posting anyways.

What remains is the issue not only not enforcing, but to some degree even disrupting coordination of the team. To change that, some abilities would again have to be locked to the group leader position. Again, i mentioned that in several threads already and am exhausted from going into detail on it again.

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That is an important point. Anyone from Ahazi especially should know this (possibly on other servers, I don't play on any others though aside from a random toon on Bria). Of the major Imperial leaders, none have been Squad Leaders.

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Yikes! It's comming up again! People, please just _try_ to also _read_ what we say here. We never claimed that SL is _necessary_ to lead, we just say it should be _helpful_ to lead.

The new concept assists an SL in leading, as long as he can make absolutely sure that he is the only SL in group. The very moment that another SL, even when just being a tiny dabbler, enters the team, this dabbler is very well able to interfere with leadership and coordination of the team. And as a hint, this dabbler-SL not only is able to interfere with the SL leading the team, he also is able to mess up the tactics and approach of your highly praised non-SL leaders.

So, again, in short:

There are excellent leaders around who have no SL in their templates. But also those, not onlyleaders with SL in their build, will find themselves in serious trouble when an inexperienced or even malevolent SL joins the group and starts playing his mess-things-up game. (And, believe me, just drawing agro in a bad way or hitting an area attack at an inappropriate moment is like relaxing in the sunshine compared what a bad SL will be able to do to the team... no other profession i know has the potential to mess a team up only half as bad as the new SL. )

Message Edited by Sylow on 09-08-2005 05:05 PM

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KJFett3 wrote:

/harp

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Sylow wrote:

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So how is removing the GL limitation helping out the SL profession any?

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It allows several SLs in one group to feel useful. Under the current system, for example a pistoleer/MSL, when not groupleader (perhaps there is already a MSL leading the group) is reduced to only being a pistoleer.

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