Squad Leader Archive

and even that seems to be a little bit of a compromise. 8 people is barely a squad... its more like a gang... a bakers half dozen and one if you live in ozark mountian country.

I justwant to let y'all know I'm still around - reading and consolidating your feedback. I just don't get to spam the forums from work so much these days, and the timing of all this is a little less than convenient. I am not pushing an agenda here, nor is it my job to justify the decisions of the development team. I am still keeping neutral on the whole group leader issue, and - while I understand the concerns and objections being voiced here - after reading Keldarin's post in the development forum earlier today I do think the designers may be leaning more toward the veterancy abstraction that I outlined in the first post of this thread.

I have not confirmed any of this yet, but since that's the direction things seem to be going, allow me to continue in the role of Devil's Advocate and reitterate the supposition that points spent in Squad Leader no longer represent selfless sacrifice in the name ofenhancing one's team, and now instead equate to a "battle-hardening" that allows multiple veterans toreinforce each other in support of a common goal. I think I can wrap my mind around that, but then I've gotten pretty good at blindly accepting cataclysmic change lately.

If the developers insist on moving forward with the plan as currently outlined in the development forum, then they do it with full knowledge and tacit acceptance of the likelihood of a full group of of eightdouble-elite level 80 Master Squad Leaders stacking and cross-buffing each other. I expect that combination, though not without weakness, will become a force to be reckoned with. I also imagine that they additionally need fear not the nerf bat -as this contingency is by apparentdesign.

As DiLunewrote in an earlier post,this simply means that Squad Leaders are going to have to learn not to step on each other in order to achieve their full effectiveness. Also keep in mind that in thisnew paradigmthere is still absolutely nothing stopping a Squad Leader from also being the group leader. If you find yourself in a group that won't let you lead, by all means feel free to drop from that group.

Well my take on this scenario is that as Master Squad Leaders we have accepted that mantle of leadership ie becoming the GL in order to have our abiliies function. However part of this mantle of responsibility is to manage the people within our group identifying the capabilities of our group members and managing/controlling the effective use of ALL their skills.

If we have multiple SL's within our groupthen we (as MSL's and GL's)must take a stronger man-management role and control these other SL's (inc. dabblers) in order to further enhance our group abilitites. This should become merely an extension of what we do currently only now we get to be more effective and provide a greater benefit to those we lead.

Admittedly under the current proposal there is no way of designating any semblance of a chain of command, but if we cant manage a group of 8 with potentially multiple players having some SL skills then are we worthy of leadership?

I'm admittedly a little skeptical of how this will work in terms of creating overpowered groups, however I think its something I may be oblidged to accept.

I think the change is a great idea and most of you are wasting too much energy into something so minor. It would appear that SoE views the actual leader of a group nothing more then a mechanical thing...ie..the person who invites other members. I can tell you from first hand experience the true "group leader" doesn't have to be the person inviting everyone, it's simply the person who takes charge of what is going on (usually a more experienced player). You can take charge of a group be it xp, pvp or roleplaying wise as a squad leader and not have to be the person who invites others. The profession is finally getting a much needed overhaul and looks to be a fun viable class now that can compete with all the mbh's, cm's, rifleman, ect.. In a group setting we will flourish especially when more then one seasoned leader can bring his knowledge (buff enhancements) to a combat unit. We've all heard the saying "choose your battles" and I think griping over this issue is not the best course of action.

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TeepoJedi wrote:
I think the change is a great idea and most of you are wasting too much energy into something so minor....

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You might have missed it since the discussion got scatter all over several threads so i copied my reply to here again:

I stated it at some posts already that in fact in this ongoing discussion in the SL forum - if the squad leader should be groupleader - there are 5 different issues within wich can be looked upon independtly from each other but easily interact with each other

• Should the squad leader be the groupleader?
  This isnt not crucial when there is only one leader in the group and the squad leader community is not worried about having this limitation removed, though this was one of the unique features/burdes/responsibities the squad leader profession had.
  You wanted to play /roleplay a leader (opposed to the powergamers who just try to increase their own uberness), so you had to lead. Even if this meant just being responsibil for invite and kick while letting the experienced guide and command you, with the squad leader just being his support communication officer using /sys or the buffer in the appropriate combat situation.



• How many squad leaders do you want to allow in a group?
  Question says it all. How many LEADERs do you need in ONE group? What does the allowance of multiple squad leaders do to the game(overstacking, powergaming, abusing, griefing).
  Shouldnt the game mechanics encourage each squad leader to take a own group rather than having all squad leader in one group? The solely possibilitiy of having more than one squad leader is opposed to the initial concept of a squad leader. Still how many do you want? Two three 8 ? One ?



• Depending on how many squad leaders, what will be the chain of command?
  Allowing more squad leader in one group, how do you distinguis between them? What is the chain of command? Why not use the already existing game mechanic of being group leader to seperate between first and second squad leader? If you want to allow more how would you further seperate them?



• How do you want to avoid abuse/overstacking/griefing?
  In the worst case you have 8 SL dabblers each with a seperate effect lasting 10 to 20 minutes (as everybody now has 4000 CM and with the current values of the buffs will be pretty much overpowerd. Read sylows comments on this, if you have good single buffs, all of them will be unbalanced, if you reduce them because you might have all of them a single one isnt worth anything anymore makeing the squad leader profession just a dabbler profession, like the pistoleer.



• What is the direction of the Squad leader revamp as well as where is the leadership in a game when leadership can NOT be earned by skill boxes.
  Leadership can not be earned or aquired by skill boxes, the old time forum squad leaders know this very very well and we havent forgotten this in this discussion since its always in hour head. We all had to aquire these within the game, or in RL.
  Encouraging squad leaders to group with each other rather than taking a leading position is not what this professin was about.
  This profession is named squad leaders, ppl who pick this possion would like to lead ppl, if they can or not. Now if they not cant, since this is ability is not within the skill boxes, what should the skills and abilities in the skill boxes do ? They should point out the player to what a squad leader (IRL or here in the game) should do. Lead.
  He should aquire skills, that put him in the position to decided as leader for the whole group, take the responsibility and carry the burder and honor of leadership. He should NOT be encouraged to hide between 7 other squad leader just buffing his group.
  Many ppl initially pick squad leader because they want to be leaders, so let them lead.
  He wanted to see/feel/play/experience what it is to be a squad leader, again so let him lead and let him experience what it is.
  You dont give somebody who ask for chocolate ice, strawberry just because its ice too.

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_scout_ wrote:

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TeepoJedi wrote:
I think the change is a great idea and most of you are wasting too much energy into something so minor....

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You might have missed it since the discussion got scatter all over several threads so i copied my reply to here again:

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Try to have some discourse and not ram your flawed (in my opinion) ideas down everyone's throats.

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Then please elaborate in which ways his ideas seem flawed to you. I don't fully agree with everything he says, but the general drift is so close to mine and there's enough hick-hacking going around here, that i personally won't cut into his argumentation.

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DiLune wrote:

You might have missed it since the discussion got scatter all over several threads so i copied my reply to here again:

I'm tired of this response, not just by you but by a lot of people. "You might have missed it" eh? No, people didn't miss it. Did it ever occur to you that your point may not be as valid as you think it is? Did it ever occur to you that they have a different opinion than you? Try to have some discourse and not ram your flawed (in my opinion) ideas down everyone's throats. This goes for everyone who feels they need to post a "you might have missed it" post.

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umm you missed it. you obviously didn't read all the other posts. scout is tired of policing the forums for bad suggestions that will hurt our proffesion and the game. and he's had to explain himself over and over again to each Non Sl - non test center playing dude that decides to drop by to give their questionable two cents - two cents given without looking to see that there are entire threads about the subject that your ideas and suggestions have already been brought up and discussed.

he shouldn't have to repeat himself in every thread because people don't know how to use the internet.

Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-08-2005 09:45 AM

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BlueGlowy wrote:

For the7 or so people that comprise the majority of this forum, in case you missed it

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It's out of context now, but some bozo posted a paragraph or two in one of the other GLvs SLthreadsthat started off with:

"still cant figure out what this minority are trying to get."

And went on to argue about how tiring it was to keep replying to the new idea that Group Leadership isa player function, not a character profession function.

So, I'd have you ask him who the 'majority' is, because I think it was clear I was intended to be in the 'minority' from his post.

Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-08-2005 09:57 AM