Squad Leader Archive

kisses.

---

BadChef wrote:
kisses.

---

You gotta pay first.

---

Ternque01 wrote:

Geezus, you people are jerks.

---

Please keep keep the SL forum how it always has been, this si the time we need to show how we have always been. Please be constructive, and have well thought out ideas. And i ask if you only come here to shout off your mouth do it elsewhere. there's a revamp needing testing, and we dont have time to deal with this.

---

Zekk- wrote:

---

Ternque01 wrote:

Geezus, you people are jerks.

---

Please keep keep the SL forum how it always has been, this si the time we need to show how we have always been. Please be constructive, and have well thought out ideas. And i ask if you only come here to shout off your mouth do it elsewhere. there's a revamp needing testing, and we dont have time to deal with this.

---

---

Shamonue wrote:

You do realize there's more to grouping than just Hunting Groups right? We lead Squads of soldiers to complete our objectives(whether serach and destroy or more complex objectives). You don't need a Squad Leader in any way to lead a hunting group. Squad Leader getting revamped doesn't change that fact.

---

I'm a little bit shocked over what I've read so far in here, gents. Squad Leader finally gets it's revamp/enhancement, practically by complete surprise, and I'm hearing a lot of negatives!

There are a couple of big ones in here that bug me the most...bitterness about people rejoining the profession after having left it, and issues over multiple SL's/not having to be GL. I'd like to point a few things out on the second one, having been a Sergeant (E-5) in the United States Marine Corps' Infantry.

If you think there is only one Squad Leader to a group in the military (and I use this comparison because I think it applies most to the SL profession in this game), you need to do your homework! In the Corps (and this "can" vary somewhat per unit, based on your unit's needs/desires), you have 12 Marines in a Squad. Roles are called "billets," and for billet assignments you have a Squad Leader and four "fire-teams," each fire team having three Marines in it (though some will go for three fire teams, four Marines per). The Squad Leader leads one fire-team, and then he has fire-team Leaders taking care of the others teams. Squad Leader passes the orders for the Squad to his fire-team Leaders, and they pass the word on to their Marines (or Sailors in the case of Navy Corpsman).

We only have 8 in a group, and fire-teams of three have always bugged me personally. So split in four, and right off the bat you have a great use for two Squad Leader-profession players. One plays lead role, other plays as a fire-team Leader.

If you're a GOOD Squad Leader, you really don't have to worry about having the purple dot on the radar signifying you're the group leader. Natural leaders will always have people follow them. If you have two SLs in a group, decide beforehand who will issue commands with /sys. I do think it'd be nice if only the SL with the Group Leader position could send the /sys, but a little cooperation and discussion could ease that route beforehand.

In my PA, there is myself and one other SL. I have more experience in the SL role, so I'll likely be the one using my /sys macros for alerts...but I welcome the help, and can even see delegating duties such as sending /sys messages for group members needing healing, rezzes, or rounding up stragglers in a dungeon.

Think outside of the box...if you're sole goal as a SL is to be the group leader so you're "in-charge," I hope you can take a little advice from a rule I always told my Marines about Officers or Staf NCOs/NCOs who would be in charge of them..."You have to respect the rank the Man wears, Devil Dog...but no once can make you respect the Man wearing the rank." And as a Leader, in any form of that word, you should know that if people respect you for who you are and what you are doing, they'll follow you anywhere.

Hope this is useful to those who love their work in this profession.

---

Kindarin wrote:
I'm a little bit shocked over what I've read so far in here, gents. Squad Leader finally gets it's revamp/enhancement, practically by complete surprise, and I'm hearing a lot of negatives!

There are a couple of big ones in here that bug me the most...bitterness about people rejoining the profession after having left it, and issues over multiple SL's/not having to be GL. I'd like to point a few things out on the second one, having been a Sergeant (E-5) in the United States Marine Corps' Infantry.

If you think there is only one Squad Leader to a group in the military (and I use this comparison because I think it applies most to the SL profession in this game), you need to do your homework! In the Corps (and this "can" vary somewhat per unit, based on your unit's needs/desires), you have 12 Marines in a Squad. Roles are called "billets," and for billet assignments you have a Squad Leader and four "fire-teams," each fire team having three Marines in it (though some will go for three fire teams, four Marines per). The Squad Leader leads one fire-team, and then he has fire-team Leaders taking care of the others teams. Squad Leader passes the orders for the Squad to his fire-team Leaders, and they pass the word on to their Marines (or Sailors in the case of Navy Corpsman).

We only have 8 in a group, and fire-teams of three have always bugged me personally. So split in four, and right off the bat you have a great use for two Squad Leader-profession players. One plays lead role, other plays as a fire-team Leader.

If you're a GOOD Squad Leader, you really don't have to worry about having the purple dot on the radar signifying you're the group leader. Natural leaders will always have people follow them. If you have two SLs in a group, decide beforehand who will issue commands with /sys. I do think it'd be nice if only the SL with the Group Leader position could send the /sys, but a little cooperation and discussion could ease that route beforehand.

In my PA, there is myself and one other SL. I have more experience in the SL role, so I'll likely be the one using my /sys macros for alerts...but I welcome the help, and can even see delegating duties such as sending /sys messages for group members needing healing, rezzes, or rounding up stragglers in a dungeon.

Think outside of the box...if you're sole goal as a SL is to be the group leader so you're "in-charge," I hope you can take a little advice from a rule I always told my Marines about Officers or Staf NCOs/NCOs who would be in charge of them..."You have to respect the rank the Man wears, Devil Dog...but no once can make you respect the Man wearing the rank." And as a Leader, in any form of that word, you should know that if people respect you for who you are and what you are doing, they'll follow you anywhere.

Hope this is useful to those who love their work in this profession.

---

Exactly. These players are limiting the possibilities by the idea that "Group leader = actual leader".

It is nice to meet a level-headed SL around here, Kindarin. Apparently the others around here don't take kindly to "outsiders" or those with "different opinions".

I'm kinda turned off by this community here.

the back and forth between you and the community here is not characteristic of this forum. wonder what the new ingredient is? everyone is welcome to share their ideas here, its how they do it that comes into question. you seem to be sitting at your computer with your finger over the reply button so its useless to discuss the topic any further here today. lets move forward and talk about the good stuff.

---

Ternque01 wrote:

---

Kindarin wrote:
I'm a little bit shocked over what I've read so far in here, gents. Squad Leader finally gets it's revamp/enhancement, practically by complete surprise, and I'm hearing a lot of negatives!

There are a couple of big ones in here that bug me the most...bitterness about people rejoining the profession after having left it, and issues over multiple SL's/not having to be GL. I'd like to point a few things out on the second one, having been a Sergeant (E-5) in the United States Marine Corps' Infantry.

If you think there is only one Squad Leader to a group in the military (and I use this comparison because I think it applies most to the SL profession in this game), you need to do your homework! In the Corps (and this "can" vary somewhat per unit, based on your unit's needs/desires), you have 12 Marines in a Squad. Roles are called "billets," and for billet assignments you have a Squad Leader and four "fire-teams," each fire team having three Marines in it (though some will go for three fire teams, four Marines per). The Squad Leader leads one fire-team, and then he has fire-team Leaders taking care of the others teams. Squad Leader passes the orders for the Squad to his fire-team Leaders, and they pass the word on to their Marines (or Sailors in the case of Navy Corpsman).

We only have 8 in a group, and fire-teams of three have always bugged me personally. So split in four, and right off the bat you have a great use for two Squad Leader-profession players. One plays lead role, other plays as a fire-team Leader.

If you're a GOOD Squad Leader, you really don't have to worry about having the purple dot on the radar signifying you're the group leader. Natural leaders will always have people follow them. If you have two SLs in a group, decide beforehand who will issue commands with /sys. I do think it'd be nice if only the SL with the Group Leader position could send the /sys, but a little cooperation and discussion could ease that route beforehand.

In my PA, there is myself and one other SL. I have more experience in the SL role, so I'll likely be the one using my /sys macros for alerts...but I welcome the help, and can even see delegating duties such as sending /sys messages for group members needing healing, rezzes, or rounding up stragglers in a dungeon.

Think outside of the box...if you're sole goal as a SL is to be the group leader so you're "in-charge," I hope you can take a little advice from a rule I always told my Marines about Officers or Staf NCOs/NCOs who would be in charge of them..."You have to respect the rank the Man wears, Devil Dog...but no once can make you respect the Man wearing the rank." And as a Leader, in any form of that word, you should know that if people respect you for who you are and what you are doing, they'll follow you anywhere.

Hope this is useful to those who love their work in this profession.

---

Exactly. These players are limiting the possibilities by the idea that "Group leader = actual leader".

It is nice to meet a level-headed SL around here, Kindarin. Apparently the others around here don't take kindly to "outsiders" or those with "different opinions".

I'm kinda turned off by this community here.

---

Ok seriously I don't know your template,but it seems very judgemental of you to be declaring what should be shouldn't be done with the Squad Leader Revamp when you've had no experience as one.
No offense if you're a Squad Leader, but you do seem to be in the minority here. There's a reason why the vast majority of us Veteran Squad Leaders(myself included) would prefer the Squad Leader be the group leader,and only he/she be able to buff group members(aside from the more obviously stated reasons,to stop people from abusing this with one bh hiring 7 sl's to buff him/keep him buffed on a Jedi hunt and vice versa).

Ok seriously I don't know your template,but it seems very judgemental of you to be declaring what should be shouldn't be done with the Squad Leader Revamp when you've had no experience as one.
No offense if you're a Squad Leader, but you do seem to be in the minority here. There's a reason why the vast majority of us Veteran Squad Leaders(myself included) would prefer the Squad Leader be the group leader,and only he/she be able to buff group members(aside from the more obviously stated reasons,to stop people from abusing this with one bh hiring 7 sl's to buff him/keep him buffed on a Jedi hunt and vice versa).

---

For the record, my template is Master Bounty Hunter, Master Squad Leader, Pistoleer 0004.


I do think it's awesome everyone has their own opinions with this, not only for sake of discussion but in diversity of the types of groups SL's will be in. No one can say their one way is the right way...there's definitely strength in that diversity.


To me, it seems counter-productive to not want what is best for the group as a SL. I DO think the ability to send system messages should be able to be controlled somehow, and it's possible the only way to do that is by limiting it to the Group Leader designation. Personally, I plan to control that through conversation with my fellow guildmate where we can decide who will say what. I like to keep the majority of my system messages bound to macros that take advantage of the %NT tags, personally, so they are uniform and use colors make them stand out (I use green for healing messages, red for combat messages, blue for general).


I'm curious though, Branas, why you would want to limit your group's potential to one set of buffs? Aside from the potential abuse reasons you stated above, because I don't think it's right to punish the masses for one person's misuse of the system. If anything, that Bounty Hunter or Jedi WOULD benefit naturally from that many Squad Leaders around anyhow. If you have a bunch of salty coaches there telling you when to fire, how to attack or heal, etc., you'd do better too!


Ultimately this will just end up coming down to "how do you like to use your abilities as a Squad Leader?" Because the answer to that question will vary quite a bit, there will always end up being different things wanted for the system. My own answer to that question is that I like to see my group do well, and know I made a difference in their performance. I enjoy the feeling of being needed for a group to do well, as I think most do. If my role means we can run the Avatar that much smoother, or actually make it to the Overlord in the Deathwatch Bunker, then right on! And if I have help from another Squad Leader doing that, even better!!


I like to work as a team! I know from my experience in the military I could issue orders as orders, and they would get done. I also know just rephrasing them to sound more like suggestions or asking for help can have a huge impact in the quality & speed in which they are done. In the USMC, you typically have a Sergeant with one or two Corporals under him to delegate authroity through. I could easily tell the Platoon what to do as a whole, though I got better results when I told my Corporals what was going on and let them take care of it. And if I had a Private/PFC/Lance Corporal with some kind of issues/problems, I pulled them aside and talked to them like a Man, not a subordinate.


I guess my rant is there is strength in numbers for leaders, and there is great leadership in working with others rather than issuing orders because you're the designated "Leader." I like to play my Squad Leader profession in the game as I ran my Platoon, and Squad before that, in real life. Works for me.


For those who prefer to run things solo, such as Branas, power to ya! Like I said, there's strength in diversity of groups. What works for me may not work for you. Heck, you may not be in groups with your guild and have to worry about some newbie throwing system messages out for the hell of it, or maybe you don't like to have to worry about figuring things out with another SL.

Message Edited by Kindarin on 09-03-2005 01:20 PM

---

MsNiL wrote:

---

Ackehece wrote:

As I said in the in concept thread

A SL should be the Leader _ I have no problem with other SLs in the squad helping out but I think that a SL has to be the leader for that to work . The Idea of a Squad Leader is "Leader" not buff bot and not requiring at least one SL to be the group leader lowers the prestige and concept of the SL.

---

Lol... i just saw the image of eight squadleaders screaming orders to eachother.

---

A larger part of the Squad leader community wants to limit the use of SL per group, especially since groups are only 8ppl large, because of above mentions example. PRE CU in 20ppl groups two or maybe three squadleader would have made sense but not POST CU.

Thanks Kindarin for your post, though that one supports boths sides, those who want one SL per groups (and as groupleader) as well as those who want multiple squad leaders within one group.

The issue at hand is what should a squad leader do, where are his responsibility and if you have more than one squad leader what is the chain of command?

In SWG none of these things are given in anway, especially since ranks mean nothing, with the exception that the groupleader can kick and invite ppl into his group

This responsibility a large majority of active squad leaders would like to see in the hands of a Squad leader when he is in the group since he will be responsible for this group. A Leroy Jenkis would get warned for his doings, after we reszed him and if he continues to do such stupid things he will be kicked for not listening to the commands, orders and plans of his squad leader.

Also a larger majority of the squad leader forum see that having multiple squad leader will be just a pain in the ass. See above quote. As Kindarin stated his real life example as close as it looks to our issue here it is not appropriate since in a military structure you have a standing chain of command, so there is not need to discuss this in a group.

In Star wars galaxies what ingame mechanic differs two different MSL who join a group form each other? Nothing.

Only the skills of the player behind the keyboard make a differences.

A suitable ingame mechanic to force a chain of command is as some already suggested that only a maximum of two squad leaders are allowed within a group, IF the squad leader is Master squad leader and groupleader.

In this case the MSL should be allowed to have two active group buffs, with one additional groupbuff from the second in command but still I see the problem here that you will have the two different squad leaders calling for different targets.

Main fact is that the system as its is now, directs you to try to force all squad leaders into one group to increase their effectiveness rather than having each squad leader leading its own group to increase the overall effectiveness of the groups and this approach totally contradicts anything what a squad leader should be.

Squad leaders should be most effective if EACH OF THEM is leading one group, not having multiple squad leaders IN one group

Although this thread has nearly been trolled to death, pls continue the discussion, ternque01 issued his concerns with limitating it to the groupleader, thank you for that, we will keep that in mind though the majority of active squad leaders dont see any problem with this.

(In germany we use to say: Wenn man keine Ahnung hat, einfach mal die Fresse halten! )

Personnaly I dont like the idea of more than one SL per group at all. I dont like the lenght of the buffs, as these dont give any room for tactical decisions during an attack. I would rather have high 5 min buffs than low 30 min buffs, so depending on the ever changing situations during a battle I can use the appropriate command, aka apply the appropriate buff.

As I dont have a toon on TC I need the input of the TC MSL who and what those Buffs do in real numbers and in an tested environment. I also dont like the idea of not beeing groupleader as this responsibility is something I would like to handle myself.

---