Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Squad Leader: Revamp on Test Center
Please stop the bickering. Facts are:
- currently a second SL in group is useless. This makes the profession not very attractive
- the proposed system would make SLs to be useful, no matter how many of them are in team.
I very well understand the first point, but the second, good as it first sounds, leads to a serious balancing problem. First face the current situation, how many, say, pistoleers do you usually see in team? Perhaps more than one, but you never see an all-pistoleer group. I have chosen pistoleer as it's one of the most frequently dabbled-in professions at the moment, mostly for the xxx4 line. Despite that, not all players have it as they know, if somebody else in team applies the root, they don't need to.
With the given concept, players would know, even if somebody else gives a buff, they then simply apply another. This would result in the SL being the mostly dabbled in profession. This might at first glance look good, but will wear down any profile of the profession... simple everybody will suddenly be a bit of a leader, you can't do wrong by picking a bit.
Out of this, the 8-SL-team will soon lead to some massive imbalance and a significant nerf will be necessary. We all know, if a quick nerf is installed, it'll almost 100% sure be a general reduction of the abilities. This will leave the profession at exactly the same place as it is now: reduced to below what it could be.
Right now we are still in concept and things can be changed with foresight. Thus i support the concept that only the leader can give the complete buffs to the group. The compromise, so other SLs don't feel useless is that they might also be allowed to apply their buffs, but buffs from non-leaders are given at significally reduced power than the leadership ones.
I assume that this is the best compromise at the moment.
I love to do group stuff,but my server is usually quite dead so I do find it hard to get a non-huntinggroup group together, so I'm usually force dto resort to using my SL bonsues for a solo group with my pet/droid.
Which is why I hate how we're losing our passive skills. My exmaple is just one way we can use our passive skills, but I group with a pet and use the extra terrain negotiation skills to crawl with my rifle a bit quicker when out doing quests aganst some of the more difficult quest targets(mid-70's range).
I'm not here to criticize any of the vet Squad Leaders(or any squad leaders for that matter), and if I have inadvertedly criticized/insulted a fellow Squad Leader,I apologize.
Shamonue wrote:
Kindarin,I was quoting Ternque's critique of your post and criticizing how he keeps pasisng judgement on us without knowing what a Squad Leader is all about.
I love to do group stuff,but my server is usually quite dead so I do find it hard to get a non-huntinggroup group together, so I'm usually force dto resort to using my SL bonsues for a solo group with my pet/droid.
Which is why I hate how we're losing our passive skills. My exmaple is just one way we can use our passive skills, but I group with a pet and use the extra terrain negotiation skills to crawl with my rifle a bit quicker when out doing quests aganst some of the more difficult quest targets(mid-70's range).
I'm not here to criticize any of the vet Squad Leaders(or any squad leaders for that matter), and if I have inadvertedly criticized/insulted a fellow Squad Leader,I apologize.
No worries man!
There is enough within the game dynamic to allow multiple options.
Kindarin wrote:
I guess my rant is there is strength in numbers for leaders, and there is great leadership in working with others rather than issuing orders because you're the designated "Leader." I like to play my Squad Leader profession in the game as I ran my Platoon, and Squad before that, in real life. Works for me.
!
DarkHelmet-TIO wrote:
/scream
Squad leader for a year, and I just gave up on the profession and went pure melee. WHY MEEEE???
Maybe i'll go TKM/MSL...Message Edited by DarkHelmet-TIO on 09-03-2005 07:42 AM
TKM/MSL is uber now, I love playing it, even solo grouped with a pet /gasp
had that temp since January on my alt (added nov pikes and dropped nov medic after the CU)
its hard to grind though now cuz you need ranged XP
captiansarcasmo wrote:ok who the heck are you? we have lots of proffesional squad leaders on valcyn.we form multiple balanced groups so that we areaffective. i've been a master sl for quite a long while now.i'm quite aware of the "huge pain in the butt" it is to type /invite
yeah my valcynite is TKM/MSL/nov pikes, my fav non jedi build, and ive done all the builds
Haleigh Comette
-MSNR- Olympus Mons
I am happy that they have finally started the revamp. Some say we have too many skills but I disagree. I believe we have the right amount of skills. Now we have to actually use strategy and use the best skill for the situation. Also allowing multiple SLs can be interesting but I really think it should be squad leader leading then have the ability to promote a 2nd in command.
If its a master leading then both SLs can use 2 group buffs which then can be toggled on and off at will.
If its a none master then its just 1 group buff.
Another thing that could be done is this:
Novice SL leading - Only his group buff will work.
If a squad leader has 1 full tree then that means another SL in the group can use there abilities. This can continue for other trees for a max of 4 SLs that can use skills plus the SL leading the party.
Master SL leading - The master SL can use 2 group abilities and have 4 SLs under him/her that can use 1 ability for a total of 6 stacking group buffs. Possibility would be to make the 2nd ability used be half as effective.
So a group lead under a master SL will be more effective vs one with a non master.
One more thing Darth see if you can convince the devs to allow master SLs to form raiding parties aka platoons. Even if it could be added later at least tell them that this would be a very useful group tool as well.
Kindarin wrote:
KJFett3 wrote:
Kindarin wrote:
I guess my rant is there is strength in numbers for leaders, and there is great leadership in working with others rather than issuing orders because you're the designated "Leader." I like to play my Squad Leader profession in the game as I ran my Platoon, and Squad before that, in real life. Works for me.
yeah, I am sooo sure every private in your squad was a leader that was able to give the group buffs in the same way you as the squad/platoon leader was able to. Heck! I bet the Army needs to make sure a platoon has 8 Sgts. to insure the 4 privates do their job right. Every squad in history has had ONE leader. Period, no ifs ands or buts. That's the way it is. When you get too many "leaders" in one place, command turns into chaos as the few followers left don't know who to follow or who is leading.
This doesnt mean that we want to nerf SL. This doesn't mean we want to weaken the buff abilities. This means they need to go back to SL being the GL and place everythign back in with that in mind. Give us back our leadership role as a Squad Leader.
Drevin...are you familiar with how rank works? The difference between Marine Corps and Army?
You are correct that every UNIT has had one leader, yes. The leader of the United States' military is the Commander-in-Chief, aka the President of the USA. Do you really think he issues all the orders? No, he relies on the heads of each individual military body...Admiral of the Navy, Commandant of the Marine Corps, etc. Then, in case of the Marines, the Commandant passes his wishes and/or orders to the Divisions/Fleets, which goes to Regimental Commanders, to Battallion Commanders, to Company Commanders, to Platoon Commanders, to the Platoon Sergeants, to the Squad Leaders. The beauty of the system is the delegation of authority to those who are capable of deciding the most effective way of carrying out those orders.
You do need your Privates, yes. And when a Private (E-1) becomes a Private First Class (E-2), they receive new responsibilities. Next they get Lance Corporal (E-3), and they get new responsibilities. Upon getting Corporal (E-4), they become a NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer), and suddenly they are responsible for the E-1's through E-3's and report to their Sergeant (E-5). Sergeant report to Staff Sergeants (E-6) and Gunnery Sergeants (E-7), and so on.
For SWG's Squad Leader, I for one look forward to having a second SL. Can't wait! That way I can devote my time to making sure everyone is shooting the right target and staying together, for example, while the second SL is issuing warnings for the healers as to who may be dropping out, or setting a new rally point for us to fall back to/push through to. The possibilities are truly limitless for how awesome a group could be with this.
I do agree it's possible to have too many Leaders, though. Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians as we always said in the Corps. I'm really hoping that the Devs see the gateway to creating SWG's version of "raid groups" is through the Squad Leader profession, which would help with that issue. Perhaps chaining groups together through SLs, but those SLs can only buff/affect the 7 other players in their group. I would think the key to that would be creating a "Platoon Commander" position, having one of the SL's acting as the Platoon Sergeant, and that would be the foundation to creating a raid group.
Can you imagine running through the DWB this way?
Message Edited by Kindarin on 09-03-2005 02:17 PM
Kindarin wrote:
KJFett3 wrote:
Kindarin wrote:
I guess my rant is there is strength in numbers for leaders, and there is great leadership in working with others rather than issuing orders because you're the designated "Leader." I like to play my Squad Leader profession in the game as I ran my Platoon, and Squad before that, in real life. Works for me.
yeah, I am sooo sure every private in your squad was a leader that was able to give the group buffs in the same way you as the squad/platoon leader was able to. Heck! I bet the Army needs to make sure a platoon has 8 Sgts. to insure the 4 privates do their job right. Every squad in history has had ONE leader. Period, no ifs ands or buts. That's the way it is. When you get too many "leaders" in one place, command turns into chaos as the few followers left don't know who to follow or who is leading.
This doesnt mean that we want to nerf SL. This doesn't mean we want to weaken the buff abilities. This means they need to go back to SL being the GL and place everythign back in with that in mind. Give us back our leadership role as a Squad Leader.
Drevin...are you familiar with how rank works? The difference between Marine Corps and Army?
You are correct that every UNIT has had one leader, yes. The leader of the United States' military is the Commander-in-Chief, aka the President of the USA. Do you really think he issues all the orders? No, he relies on the heads of each individual military body...Admiral of the Navy, Commandant of the Marine Corps, etc. Then, in case of the Marines, the Commandant passes his wishes and/or orders to the Divisions/Fleets, which goes to Regimental Commanders, to Battallion Commanders, to Company Commanders, to Platoon Commanders, to the Platoon Sergeants, to the Squad Leaders. The beauty of the system is the delegation of authority to those who are capable of deciding the most effective way of carrying out those orders.
You do need your Privates, yes. And when a Private (E-1) becomes a Private First Class (E-2), they receive new responsibilities. Next they get Lance Corporal (E-3), and they get new responsibilities. Upon getting Corporal (E-4), they become a NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer), and suddenly they are responsible for the E-1's through E-3's and report to their Sergeant (E-5). Sergeant report to Staff Sergeants (E-6) and Gunnery Sergeants (E-7), and so on.
For SWG's Squad Leader, I for one look forward to having a second SL. Can't wait! That way I can devote my time to making sure everyone is shooting the right target and staying together, for example, while the second SL is issuing warnings for the healers as to who may be dropping out, or setting a new rally point for us to fall back to/push through to. The possibilities are truly limitless for how awesome a group could be with this.
I do agree it's possible to have too many Leaders, though. Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians as we always said in the Corps. I'm really hoping that the Devs see the gateway to creating SWG's version of "raid groups" is through the Squad Leader profession, which would help with that issue. Perhaps chaining groups together through SLs, but those SLs can only buff/affect the 7 other players in their group. I would think the key to that would be creating a "Platoon Commander" position, having one of the SL's acting as the Platoon Sergeant, and that would be the foundation to creating a raid group.
Can you imagine running through the DWB this way?
Message Edited by Kindarin on 09-03-2005 02:17 PM
I am very well aware of the chain of command in the military.Now I will point you to post 21 of this very thread where I said.
I could agree with a 2nd command spot possibly..where the number 8 spot of a group..if filled by a MSL could be an "Aid" to the leader and do single player buffs (not group). Where as teh leader motivates the group and can motivate individuals, the 2nd in command could motivate individuals. This 2nd in command could also assume leader of the group should the leader be slain, then being able to do all that a SL leader is able to do...the slain SL would then fall into the 8 spot.
Shamonue wrote:
/cheer!!!
But on a more sour note. Does anyone else wish they'd lock anyone new from joining our profession?
It just feels not fair that people can just join the prof and grind it now that it's gonna be good, which will leave us SL's who've waited years for this and patiently stood by the profession through al the brokenness in the dust of the mad SL rush,b being forced to answer all the newbie SL questions.
/sigh
I don't mind the love,but I do hate that we'll end up being the new profession that everyone rushes to(like BH's during the respec period,being mobbed by newbie m-bh's,or in our case m-sl's, with questions that anyone with the Master Title should know).
Message Edited by Shamonue on 09-03-2005 03:49 AM
Just wanted to pop in and say congratulations to all of you. Ranger's and Squad Leader along with Smuggler's are the most needy of SWG professions. I'm glad to see our brothers in arms get the attention they so richly deserve.
Here's hoping you don't become FOTM. 