Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Official: Your Comments on the New Abilities
While its debatable how effective these skills are until they are implemented I do not like the aspect of controlling other PC's (thats what I have Pets for). I say this because I am a group member to and I enjoy being able to select my own target and do my own thing. Sometimes its being a good little soldier and assisting other times its peeling a mob off a buddy, and other times its saving my own butt from an angry mob. With this in mind the SL abilities should either be more passive in nature or be condition based. What I mean by that is that group members should get the bonuses by following SL commands.
For Example: GroupTarget - Offensive bonus for attacking SLs target/assisting SL
Rally - Defensive bonuse for being in a certain range of rally point/SL
FormUp - Movement/speed bonus for being in formation / range of SL
This would give tangebal benifits for being a SL, and for following the SL's comands without interrupting other group roles (crowd control, healing, etc...)
Also I would suggest some generic timer type bonuses for that extra boost beyond strategical command, more of a motivational type action These may cost the SL greater HAM costs due to no conditions on bonuses:
SuckItUpSoldier - Healing Bonus / and or In Combat regen
StayOnTarget - Accuracy / to-hit Bonus
LetEmHaveIt - Damage Bonus
In my humble opion, ANY group member can lead but SLs should be able to excel at this byMOTIVATINGAND SUPPORTINGhis troops while doing it.
PanzerGR: my problem with these commands are:
1) Players shouldn't be my pet... This will quickly make Squad Leaders not wanted. Yes, it is great tactics-wise, but it is NO FUN for the other members of the group.
2) It will mess up Medics and Crowd-Controllers... they don't want to attack the main target.
old big hunting party on DAOC here, leader of a 70 people PA.
As soon as I learn that they will be squad leaders in SWG, I thought "it's done for me". But reading and reading here, and playing a SL everyday in 12-20 people groups I feel less and less confident in the way the Devs want to go.
First, looking at the new abilities, I'd like to know how we are suppose to gain xp. At the moment, it's ONLY related to our OWN damage, not the ones made by pets, not the one made by healing, not the ones made by using raly, form up, boost morale or anything else. So if we have to enqueue command, that will ask us to be very aware of the situation, to target several ennemies, when do we make damage and earn xp ?
SL have to manage the fight of the group, and doing this, in the the short time of a fight, he cannot maximize his own damage by spamming styles or aiming at the same creature till death. So even if xp is multiplied by the number of people in your group, you earn less leader XP than a TKA earn brawler xp.
This means that with the current system, the less in-fight-command you use, the more xp you earn. That's not logical.
Second, concerning our abilities to orientate a group in a fight :
I find it not too bad, but not efficient yet. It will be good if I can assign a main target for the tanks / pistoleer / carbineer, and another target for the riffles, (so they can use their mind-based styles and be really efficient, the few times we can deal like this). But with the system you are proposing, I have to determine each people sub-group before the fight, to switch during the fight targets to land the auto-assist (and if I do it too quickly, they will aim at the wrong target), to check if every monster is tanked, if healer have enough mind, if a warning shot is necessary, etc. Not enough time to do it when lot of targets, and waiting for the teammate queue to come to my order if they spammed a style before.
I am also not sure that /groupattack will make groupmates fire with normal shoot or styled ones. I don't need normal shoot. That's totally unefficient. So not sure to use it.
What I would like to do, is to :
- give efficient buffs to my group (offensive for ranged, defensive for tanks as it has been said, other ones don t make sense) but not diminushing the xp my tanks will earn because if I do it, they will ask me NOT to buff them.
- give my target colored mark, so I can say for exemple "tanks attack the orange mark", "riffles attack the dark blue mark", "Crowd controller warning the fluorescent mark". Shooting the mark colors will give me NO aggro and good xp when they die.
- give run buff : always appreciated so /forced march should be good
- be able to give 2 orders before being out of mind (that's crazy to completly suicide yourself for just orders).
As a conclusion, I'll say like most of the others SL : this is not enough.
The biggest problem with these proposed changes is this: While they will help make a bad group better, they will do hardly anything for a good group. A Squad Leader should be beneficial to all groups, not just the ones that can't get their act together. The only useful commands to a good group (other than Forced March and Smoke em) are OffensiveStance and DefensiveStance, but they simply aren't enough. Squad Leaders really could confer more passive bonuses. Ideally a HAM cost reducer, maybe 10% per level of the appropriate skill line.
These changes will almost certainly lead to AFK groups. Imagine this scenario: A group of six friends in college play SWG (Adam, Bob, Chris, Dan, Ed, Fred). Adam creates a Squad Leader. The others join Adam's group, then go AFK as Adam leads the group around with Follow Me, killing stuff with Group Attack. Four hours later, Bob takes over for Adam and runs the Squad Leader account. Four hours later, Chris takes over for him, etc, etc. Playing four hours a day each, this group of friends would be able to level all their characters 24/7. Oh does Dan's character need scouting XP? He writes a macro to attempt to harvest every minute.
Hold Fire: Does anyone else foresee a bug where a SL will hit Hold Fire, you disband from the group, and then you're stuck holding fire until you relog?
Part of being in an efficient group is that each member of the group knows their role. I shouldn't have to be telling everyone specifically what to do - I should be determining the overall direction of the squad while letting each member (who is presumably better informed about their own abilities and capabilities, and has the information about their situation first-hand) decide on the best way to achieve those goals.
What an SL should be doing is enabling people to do their jobs, not doing it for them. The only proposed command which I see this to be true is 'Forced March'. None of the other commands fit what an SL should be doing. SLs should not be a 'PC Handler'.
Well, with all the changes to SL coming up, I just thought I'd put in my 2 cents.
I LOVE the idea of squad leader. I spent alot of time getting there only to be dissappointed with it. Then I heard changes were coming. How exciting!
I've looked throught the changes, and while I could spend alot of time picking or praising each new command, I thought it might be better to give the devs (assuming they read this) an example of what I thought squad leader would be. So here is how I thought a battle with squad leader might go.
For arguments sake, lets assume that I have taken the leader position of a group of 15 people plus myself. I have the group broken down into 3 groups of 5 (an ability given to the SL profession). In my opinion a SL should be able to set a varying number of groups.. say 1 - 10 if so desired.
The battle would go something like this.
/sg Hold all fire and wait for my commands. -- A message to the group
/sg 1 set up for suppression fire and hold your ground. -- message to group 1.
/DefensiveStance 1 -- Give group 1 defensive bonus.
/sg 2 concentrate all fire on %TT -- message to group 2.
/Offensivestance 2 -- Give offensive bonus to group 2.
/sg 3 move left into flanking position. Attack %TT on my mark. -- message to group 3.
/sg 1 Retreat behind the support line and concentrate all fire on %TT.
/retreat 1 -- Give retreat bonus to group 1.
/sg 2 Take up defensive posture.
/DefensiveStance 2
/Offensivestance 1
/sg 3 Attack!
... and so forth.
In my mind DefensiveStance would give a defensive bonus at the expensive of to hit bonus.
OffensiveStance would give an extra to-hit bonus at the expense of defensive bonus.
retreat would give a speed boost (not necessarily burst run speed) at the expense of both offensive and defensive bonus.
The group leader should atomaticaly have a certain offensive and defensive bonus for groups just for being a squad leader.. This should go up each time a box in a certain line of the tree is aquired. Say +5 to hit and +5 to defense, just for getting squad leader. Then gain +10 and +10 in your first box of battlefield tactics. So when you give a special, like OffensiveStance, the group gains +10 to-hit, -10 to defense. When retreat is called, the group gets -20, -20 for the extra speed.
This is just a sample of what I though squad leader would be. In this format, the groupleader can give commands fairly simply to multiple groups and has some bonuses to give to the group, but he/she's not controlling anyone. They still choose what target to attack, what specials to use and how to move. We're just able to coordinate these movements to help the group focus on certain goals.
Any other thoughts?
jdm
Comments that pop up in my head after reading the latest responses...
I am likeing /groupAttack less and less the more I think about it. Last night on Endor we had an amazing group...it gave me goosebumps to lead such a well disciplined and efficientgroup. If we have commands that enforce discipline there will be no difference between good and bad groups and it would be harder to be excited by a good group (at least for me). In about 8 hours of game time we had a total of two targetting mistakes made...one by me (which would have been even worse if I was controlling everyone else's targeting).
So, I would like to throw my vote in with the people who say they don't like /groupAttack or any /groupTarget type commands. I also would like to support the idea of painting targets...someone mentioned being able to say things like "tanks hit blue, ranged hit yellow". This adds more tactical interest...it's a great idea. A good group already does this quite a bit, but with identical NPCs it can be very hard. This is a way an SL can add to the efficiency of even good groups.
I think the /paintTarget type of command combined with the offensive and defensive active bonuses (ones we have to give on the fly (like rally)in addition to ourpassive bonuses) along with being able to set up sub-squads would make combat more interesting in SWG and are reasonably SL skills.
Questions for the DEVs:
- Do these new skills replace our old ones or are they added to our skill tree?
- How much do these skills cost to our HAM and how often will they fail? Our current skills would be more useful if they didn't cost so much and they didn't fail so often. If the new skills are just as costly and failure-prone, we will still be rather useless.
- Is there any plan at all to address our XP system?
--Ze'ev
Nochmal wrote:
Last night on Endor we had an amazing group...it gave me goosebumps to lead such a well disciplined and efficientgroup. If we have commands that enforce discipline there will be no difference between good and bad groups and it would be harder to be excited by a good group (at least for me). In about 8 hours of game time we had a total of two targetting mistakes made...one by me (which would have been even worse if I was controlling everyone else's targeting).
--Ze'ev
Ze,
Thats it. That's the whole reason to play MMORG's in the first place. Its MMORG nirvana! Until everyone here gets that experience, which is hard to get in SWG right now, then its really hard to communicate how the SL class should be.
Let me share with you one of my most rewarding times in EQ. Our guild had been camping West Temple of Veeshan for a couple months killing the normal drakes there (who are themselves tough) and had tried to kill the named mobs there but failed a coupletimes. Now, in WToV if you die you respawn several zones away (unless you are a spell caster) with significant experience loss and all of your weapons and armor (Very important in EQ)is at the feet of the mob who killed you. It can take 30 minutes to an hour to reform and thats only if you have a plan together. It takes 30 to 45 minutes just to setup for the start of the event. It took about 2 hours from the time you entered the zone to clear your way to the named (We were on giant faction so everyone in there pretty much hated us). So evenattempting to take out a tough named mob in that zone is time consuming and risky. When we finally did it, we had to have the right buffs on to handle the mobs Area of Effect dammage. We had to debuff the dragon with a certain spell sequence. The dragon hit the MT so hard that he was almost killed himevery melee round. So in order to keep our MT alive we had a 5 cleric Complete Heal chain rotation setup, so that the MT was CH'd every 3 seconds or so, and we had druids spot healing the MT and others in the AoE zone of the mob. If one cleric was off by a second or two, the MT would die and the dragon would start summoning everyone and killing them almost immediately. If the clerics ran out of mana before we could kill the dragon, we would all die. If someone agroed the dragon before the MT, they would die and possible throw off the CH rotation. The first time it took us about 40 people to kill Goz, but I tell you everyone in the guild was so pumped aftwards we thought we could do anything! The next week we killed all of the named in WToV and shortly after that headed to NToV.
I have no idea if SWG will ever have encounters like that, but there is no other game experience like being part of a competent, functional team. IMO any MMORG that does not provide these types of opportunities is totally missing the whole concept. Solo experience is just like playing a consul game...
First off I'd like to say that my PA and Ithink these changeswill be very useful (cept for the ordering medic to heal so-and-so, I'll never use it). It was the deciding factor in my inquiry as to which profession, commando or squad leader, I should master.
Squad Leaders are *meant* to be military based. If not military then Professional Soldier. These people should have control over their groups. However this can be done now. If a person doesn't do what the Squad Leader says he gets drummed out of the squad. To the real military officer who made his statements, yes it was up to your soldiers to make the decision to fire or not, however if they don't make the decision to do what they are ordered to what happens to them? They get penalized in some way. The squad leaders in the game don't have that option so the forced commands are the solution to that, unless of course you want to give the squad leader the ability to withhold rewards from group members who don't do what they are told.
The only time a member of the military can disobey orders and get away with it is when the commander gives orders that are unethical or contradictory.
To the real military officer who made his statements, yes it was up to your soldiers to make the decision to fire or not, however if they don't make the decision to do what they are ordered to what happens to them? They get penalized in some way. The squad leaders in the game don't have that option so the forced commands are the solution to that, unless of course you want to give the squad leader the ability to withhold rewards from group members who don't do what they are told.
First of all, the stakes are a little different between the real world and a game. One deals with life and death, the other with frustration and inconvenience. Comparison between the two are never going to be completely equitable.
Most people would consider being kicked out of a group as punishment. You could also take them out of the loot cycle, if that's more palatable.
I'm not sure if it would be appropriate in SWG, but I do like the idea of giving players the ability to grant or withhold rewards from other players. Some pen and paper RPGs do this (players vote on who they think most deserves a certain bonus award, for example). MMORPGs probably couldn't handle that sort of system without being wide open to exploits.
Gyrtris wrote:
The only time a member of the military can disobey orders and get away with it is when the commander gives orders that are unethical or contradictory.
Contradictory orders are exactly what this issue is about. In the real world, I might tell my soldiers they have the right to defend themselves if attacked, and also tell them to keep their weapons on safe while traveling in a vehicle. If they're attacked while in a vehicle, can they defend themselves? Of course - I'd expect it, and without calling for clarification first. Ifsomeone isrunning a rifle range and gives the order to commence firing, and anyone sees someone downrange, they'd better NOT fire,and in fact have a duty to bring it to the attention of the range operator.
Conversely, in SWG, if I put my squad on Hold Fire and someone is attacked, they're helpless to defend themselves until they make me aware of the situation and I rescind the order. If I switch the target of my squad using group attack or group cover, I may be doing more harm than good by preventing a medic from healing his intended target or losing my crowd control.
Leaders are not omniscient or omnipotent. We have to place a certain amount of trust in our subordinates to fill the roles we give them, because we cannot do everything and be everywhere; just as they place trust in us to fill our role (whether that be to get them home alive, or to get the nice XP).
Ok, for the record....
As a complete MMORPG N00b, I have no frame of reference other than my in game experiences. I bought this game to play with a select group of friends, but found that I really liked a lot of the people I've met and enjoyed picking up tips, joking, and fighting with new people. I chose Scout/marksman to support my brawler friend and pistoleer medic, and pretty naturally drifted toward the SL field.
I had been reading this forum long before I acquired the skills and took novice SL anyway. I find it difficult to get large XP, but I don't sweat it because I don't do Large damage. I use my pet to tank for me which allows me to get XP "soloing", but limits it because he does all the damage. Of course I realize this doesn't have to be the case, but I've also come to realize that sometimes you want XP, sometimes you Faction pooints, and sometimes you want money. Gameplay should be flexible based on your goals.
Which leads me to my larger point. In my opinion, this game is one based on limitations and focus. The current skill set and any that may follow are only tools, means to a given end. The lack of hig-tech tools in no way hindered the magnificence of the Taj Mahal or Notre Dame. Point: it just doesn't matter. Yes I would like great and useful skills, but I will always be a better leader by using my brain. I believe that just as artisans fly to the top by focusing on their skill, so can I carve a niche for myself by being a good leader, not a good button pusher.
As ex-military and a musician myself, I can certainly avow that the best leaders are the ones who understand an know the troops/players, and who can understand the boundaries that you are working with. Know where the strengths are, understand that everyone is there to benefit.
WhatI see as the greatest problems in battle are targeting and mind pool drain. Everything else can be controlled by good players.
I like the idea of more buffs instead of skills to the SL field, though, I've been intrigued by the skills that supposedly aid targeting. This game is ridiculous in how difficult it is to target an enemy. Of course slowing down and being patient helps you not select the wrong target, but sometimes I have to react quickly to save my medic/tank/whatever.PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE give me an ability that might help my troops only attackcreatures already involved in combat, or creatures that are within a certain range of fire. I can honestly say that the only mistakes I've ever seen a group make are due to the ridiculously difficult targeting system.
Anyone who can heal mind pool in battle would fix the other stuff.
American military force is heavily reliant on technology, but most of this technology is directed toward better control and coordination of troops and assets. By taking ten minutes to have a briefing, or a couple of hours of drill time, my squad will be able to handle the stuff we know and discover how to tackle the things that give us trouble. The rest is icing.
Finally, Duncaen Starstrider (sp?), at first I though your post was a flame, but I quickly understood that you have concerns with this game that relate to issued I have no reference too. I believe your posts to be the most thoughtful and most disturbing. Ireally enjoythis game, except when stupid stuff happens like aggro MOBs right on my positionand all the targeting BS,and do not like the trend I've seen of the more experienced player being fed up and leaving. I find it bothersome. The loss of the greatest players is the truest symptom of disease. i hope that this game will recover because i love it.
please post replies!
Ok, /endrant.
Occamz Zryzor -> Tarquinas
Gyrtris wrote:First off I'd like to say that my PA and Ithink these changeswill be very useful (cept for the ordering medic to heal so-and-so, I'll never use it). It was the deciding factor in my inquiry as to which profession, commando or squad leader, I should master.
Squad Leaders are *meant* to be military based. If not military then Professional Soldier. These people should have control over their groups. However this can be done now. If a person doesn't do what the Squad Leader says he gets drummed out of the squad. To the real military officer who made his statements, yes it was up to your soldiers to make the decision to fire or not, however if they don't make the decision to do what they are ordered to what happens to them? They get penalized in some way. The squad leaders in the game don't have that option so the forced commands are the solution to that, unless of course you want to give the squad leader the ability to withhold rewards from group members who don't do what they are told.
The only time a member of the military can disobey orders and get away with it is when the commander gives orders that are unethical or contradictory.
Except this is a game and not real life.
I have no issues with most of the new abilities proposed, only the ones that turns players into pets.
Not only is this intrusive to a player's individual playing style, you are also telling them you do not trust them enough to make their own judgements.
And an experienced group will probably never require the SL to use those abilities anyway, rendering half of those new abilities either worthless.
I much prefer a form of passive buff, or commands that boost the squad up for a temporary period of time at the cost of the SL's HAM.
I will continue to post here, though, in hopes that through this discussion we may make an impact on the future of our game. I believe that, although misguided they may be, the Devs realy do want to make this a balanced and fun game for all. So, disregarding the nonsese that the Devs propose, here is my list of the MOST important improvements that SHOULD be made to the Squad Leader calss:
1. Fix the /group commands (jeez its been months guys)
2. implement a /paint target command
3. Make a /volley fire command that works well and costs little
4. Give our groups some passive offensive and defensive bonuses and maybe some xp bonuses (especially at higher levels)
5. Let us have some group missions that are fun and unique
Just for the record, that's all it would take to make me happy.