Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Official: Your Comments on the New Abilities
My two credits...
In general, the skills that control the group are not all that evil and I think overall can be used to make a group better and more fun to be in. A really good group won't benefit as much from them, but even some of the pretty good groups that I have lead would benefit at least a bit. Some of the control skills could be used in ways that would annoy group members...however, if you abuse them, you'll lose your group. There is nothing in the new skill list thatforces people to stay in the group. Yeah, you might get someone killed once, but you can do that with normal combat choices anyway.
My main problem is that the list of new skills does not address our XP issues. I still feel that our main improvement would be making the XP system make more sense and be related to actually leading a group. That said...here are comments on the specific skills.
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/followMe - helps get the group moving from a resting place...allows people to go afk for a bit and let the group stay together without waiting for them. Not a huge benefit for SLs but it will keep large groups together for longer.
Formations - Lately people have noticed that they /follow me in a wedge formation and they hate it. It means that when I sneak through a gap in a line of aggressive creatures, my squaddies get aggro. I wouldn't use thisexcept to make sure everyone follows me in a straight line.
/holdFire and /fireAtWill - What did Will do? (sorry...stupid joke) I like these commands. Not sure how they can be "exploited" although they could be used to abuse someone. Still, abuse it once and you've lost your squad and probably will get a rep for using this badly.Well disciplinedgroups do not benefit from this.
/groupAttack - I love this and would like a /groupTarget to complement it along with /groupCover (which wouldn't allow me to get everyone targeting what *I* am looking at). Does allow AFKing...which I don't really mind all that much but if the AFKing is a problem just make it /groupTarget so each player has to hit a button for them to attack. Even very disciplined groups can benefit from things like /groupTarget since identical NPCs can make it hard to get a group to all target/fire on the same NPC.
/ceaseFire - Possibly useful for groups trying to disengage. Makes it clear that disengement is what the leader is trying to get people to do. Probably never used much.
/assignPosition - I like this. Allows you to send melee fighters in first and then have the ranged fighters open up. A well disciplined group can do this to some extent on their own, although I've never been able to make it work well enough. Would also allow a defensive modifier to be given to tanks while offensive mods be given to damage dealers. I really like this...it gives some tactical interest to fights which SWG is lacking.
/offensiveStance and /defensiveStance - Good stuff...is it different than our current offensive and defensive modifiers? Would it replace them or add to them? Would they actually have an effect on the outcome of a fight? If they are effective enough without being overpowerd, these could become our most important skills.
/orderHeal - Almost entirely useless...I can use /sysgroup for this anyway and as others have pointed out, the docs are better at keeping track of HAM states anyway.
/groupCover - Good...should be complementedwith a /groupTarget type of command.
/forcedMarch - Excellent skill.
/smokeEmIfYouGotEm - Would this heal mind damage faster than an entertainer? Does it make sense for SLs to have a skill that impinges on entertainer abilities? It would probably make down-time shorter since with a medic you can keep all HAMs up except for mind. I would rather see a skill like this go to entertainers and have them apply even during combat and not in a camp. To me a complete combat group should have melee fighters/tanks, damage dealers, a leader, a medic and an entertainer...you have your bagpipe player play during combat to give mind healing and maybe other bonuses. I think the /smokeEm skill would be OK if it were a camp-only skill that gave the camp an extra healing bonus on top of the camp bonus.
--Ze'ev
Ive never been in a group that didnt have at least one person with some entertainment healing, so I'd like to see smoke em if you got em changed so that you dont need a camp; when the SL activates this ability, all players sitting gain a mind regen bonus. That means it cant effectively be used in combat, but it can be used in camps as well as dungeons and cities. Otherwise, isnt it more effective to have the dancer start up his act since you're in camp already?
The rest seem like they would be very useful in a very limited number of situations, or if you're exploiting. Of course the Group Heal is silly. If I wanted to piss off the group healer I can do that now with a little macro that effectively does the same thing.
Furthermore, the "Smoke Em if you Got Em" is worthless since noone really cares if you regen a tad faster in a camp, who uses a camp anyway?
HOWEVER
How about SLs can heal Mind Damage? Now THAT would be an excellent Master SL skill.
-Follow Me:
nice in theory, but come on... who doesn't follow when you tell them to that DOESN'T deserve a /kick?
-In formation:
Sure, if formations DID anything (otherwise, stay in a tight jumble... makes the Medic's job easier)
-Hold Fire & Fire At Will:
I, and everyone elsealready has a command to take care of this... it is called /kick <playername>
-Group Attack:
NO NO NO!!! make it /grouptarget... eliminates the AFK exploit, and doesn't piss off my Medics and Crowd Controllers
-Cease Fire:
Once again, I and everyone else already has a command for this... GUESS
-Assign Position:
Ummm.... okay.... :boggle:
-OffensiveStance:
As long as the Offensive bonus is GREATER than the Defensive bonus. Remember Devs... we are spending SKILL POINTS on these, and deserve bonuses, not cancellations (cancelling each other out)
-DefensiveStance:
Same as above
-Group Heal:
Stupid Idea (no offense)... you Devs don't play this game much (not bagging on you, Ive heard it from your posts)... the Medics know how to do their job... If I EVER used this, I would piss them off (and we can already do it by typing "/sysgroup Heal on Chewbacca")
-Group Cover:
I like it! gives me a main assist /grouptarget... Now, FIX /ASSIST DEVS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Forced March:
As long as it isn't a "burst run", NIIIICCCEEEE!!!! I will feel like my EQ Bard again! W00t!!!
-Smoke-em-if-you-got-em:
As long as it stacks with Entertainer abilities, and still allows Entertainers to dance/sing, and Medics to heal/craft... and... and...
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My final note: I don't want to make other players my pet, I want to ease the group's hunting ability... As long as I still give bonuses to my group's skills, and have Utility Commands to make combat easier, I am happy.
Once again: I DONT WANT TO MAKE OTHER PLAYERS MY PET, AND NEITHER DO THEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We need things to help us do things more efficiently..not more action based commands issued mid combat.
Being able to assign waypoints the group can see planetside style would be a good thing.
In a group of 15-20..someone who tries to control everything themselves will get overloaded. Being able to assign an assitant who can handle group admisions n stuff. Free up the SL to think tactically..and more importantly..to think about how he is going to best get the group enjoying their time.
Being a SL should not be about pressing buttons in combat to show how well you can control things. Good leadership is about relinquishing control and trusting others, giving em responsibility, knowing who to give it to and where to set the boundaries on behaviour etc.
We need abilities that let us function as better leaders...not better controllers.
i love these
in fact a great majority of them are similar to ideas i expressed in the "New Skills" post written by sum1 else
i suggested formations, a hold fast, and other commands......a fe wof which are seen her ein limited scope
for anyone who doesnt think group attack, hold fire, etc is effective you are very very wrong
theres a reason that REAL LIFE militaries and law enforcement groups sue these very commands
learn to use them, learn to use them correctly...and i gurantee ull see marked improvement in your groups
also the ability of the squad leader to ENFORCE DISIPLINE in groups is MUCH NEEDED. Not everyone in this game thinks clearly about fighting and many is the tiem sum1 started shooting at somehting they shouldnt have
another thign too
from what ive seen...and no real offens emeant
those who have disagreed with these commands can plainly not see the usefulness of them at all
im tired of peopel picking Squad LEader just because its there and they have no inkling of what being a squad leader actually implies.
these commands CAN be applied very effectively if used correctly
as someone already said, it will seperate the good SL's from the bad ones
if you picked SL just so u could be the big boy in the group or just because....then now is yoru chance to get out of the profession
ok here is only my opinion about.. excuse me for english but I'm not a good english speacker:
-Follow Me:
Everyone in the group enqueues /follow on the leader
not very useless all people know the /follow key
-In formation:
Using code similar to AI's followOffset: the group follows the leader in column, wedge or line formation
Can be use, with maybe some tactical advantage even if that can be use on subgroups, and only if people under our command can choice to not obey to this order. I would like to avoid frustration.
-Hold Fire & Fire At Will:
No one in the group is allowed to initate combat, although they can defend and can defend vs. anyone attacking a member of their group
Can be good too, only if it's possible to choice the subgroups. but I'm afraid to use it.. I don t like the idea to have pet under my commandment. This will be good in largest team (>10). It's very diificult to command largest team.. This command can be used. But affectation in subgoup needed
-Group Attack:
Anyone not already in combat will enqueue an attack vs. the leader's look-at target
humm .. no I don t like.
-Cease Fire:
Everyone in the group enqueues /peace.
may be good but in affectation on subgroup too. But not sure that people under command may like it.. humm...
-Assign Position:
The group leader can assign group members to "Front Line", "Support" or "Ranged" squads. Group Attack, Cease Fire, Group Cover, OffensiveStance, DefensiveStance, Hold Fire and Fire At Will can then be directed to these individual squads
/100% agree
-OffensiveStance:
Gives the group a temporary bonus to damage. The bigger the group the better the bonus, lowers defense.
I like.. but the bonus can be proportionnal to the level of teh SL instead of the size of the group may be better no?
-DefensiveStance:
Gives the group a temp bonus to defense. The bigger the group the better the bonus, lowers damage.
(i.e. Assign your tanks to "Front Line" and enqueue DefensiveStance on the front line group, then assign the ranged guys to "Ranged" and enqueue OffensiveStance on that group, etc.)
same as before
, it doesn't heal the group: It changes the look-at target of anyone assigned to a support position to the leader's look-at target, and gives the system message "You have been ordered to heal ". Used by the leader to tell his healers who to heal. So you still have to push the button yourself (because he might not need a heal - he might need /firstAid or the like.
disagree. doc is better alone to knwo who he must heal that the SL.
-Group Cover:
Enqueues a /assist for the group vs. the leader's look-at target. i.e. if I want everyone to shoot what Dan is shooting, then I look at Dan and enqeue Group Cover.
Good
-Forced March:
Non-combat group burst-run sort of thing. Broken as soon as anyone in the group engages in combat.
yes.
-Smoke-em-if-you-got-em:
In a camp, out of combat, everyone in the group gets a mind regen bonus. The bigger the group the bigger the bonus.
no! That's the job of the entertainer to do this. That's the job of the SL to be sure that there is an entertainer in the group.
Thx.
I believe these new abilities are a step in the right direction for the Squad Leader. Effectively turning the Squad Leader into an actual commander over his troopers, rather then some sort of group bonus generator.
So lets take these one by one shall we?
-Follow Me:
Everyone in the group enqueues /follow on the leader
This is decent and something that is needed. Something that could easily be exploited, though.
Now I have no idea how this can be exploitable, since it is just allowing people to Follow you. But it is a handy little feature that sounds like will be the first step in the actual formations themselves. So after a battle the leader can have everyone follow him, and then put them into one of the many formations that will be avaliable to the person. This is really the only purpose I would see for such a thing in the Squad Leader list of techniques.
-In formation:
Using code similar to AI's followOffset: the group follows the leader in column, wedge or line formation
This is one of the first things I wanted when becoming a Squad Leader. I wanted to take my group of 20 and be able to run with them all in a formation, since that is what war is mostly about. Showing off your organization and training by marching in formation. This will also help spread things out a little bit in combat so everything is not so bunched up.
-Hold Fire & Fire At Will:
No one in the group is allowed to initate combat, although they can defend and can defend vs. anyone attacking a member of their group
This is one of those skills that I will just have to use myself in different situations to actually make a good decision about it. But this will definately help when I want to get together a large hunting party, with alot of rookies or people with no regard to what they attack, and direct them to a single spot with no encounters unless one is necessary. Anyone who has been in a group knows how often it turns into people getting left behind because something attacked them or they attacked something and the main section of the group continues on totally disregarding the person, or people, being attacked.
-Group Attack:
Anyone not already in combat will enqueue an attack vs. the leader's look-at target
I for one see this is a fine skill for the SL to have. Sure it means people can go AFK and still fight, but what is wrong with that? What about when people are in combat and they lose connection and become nothing but another person standing around? What if that person just seriously needs to use the bathroom and uses /follow on the leader and then the group gets attacked by a massive herd of some aggressive creature? Instead of having multiple people standing around not being able to attack, you now have the ability to direct the fire yourself of these people.
Everyone in the group enqueues /peace.
I see many uses for this. One main one being the attack on a lair. If someone is unfamiliar with the way lairs work and keeps attacking it, I can then force him into a peace stance so he will not aggro the creature about to come out. This also means that when I warning shot a creature I can force everyone to peace to allow it to run away if that is what the situation calls for. This could also be used to Roleplaying PvP during a cease-fire "surrender" scenario. Will work great when people think about putting on plays or broadway shows.
-Assign Position:
The group leader can assign group members to "Front Line", "Support" or "Ranged" squads. Group Attack, Cease Fire, Group Cover, OffensiveStance, DefensiveStance, Hold Fire and Fire At Will can then be directed to these individual squads
Now this is the type of thing I have been praying about for a long time. Think Final Fantasy or other RPG's to get an idea of what this is talking about. Say you have 20 people in your group. Lets say....5 pure marksman class, 5 pure brawler class, 5 combat medics, and 5 doctors. You can then assign each pure marksman and the best combat medics with ranged skills to a Ranged squad and then assign Offensive Stance to them which will boost their power. Then you can assign each of the Brawlers to their own Front Line squad while giving them the Defensive Stance, effectively increasing their defensive capabilties. Then you have the pure combat medics that you can assign to the Support squadron while giving them the Group Cover command which will allow each one of them to help one another out by showing them who to heal if anything happens. Then you have the 5 doctors who will be put into another support squadron and given the DefensiveStance capability to boost their defensive qualities just in case something attacks their fragile bodies.
This adds about 100x more tactics to your group, and each group at that, then anything avaliable right now. What an awesome addition.
I find most of these changes to be well done and will just add to the ability for a Squad Leader to be a true leader of the group. Some people are just getting extreme with their ideas, such as the poster of the topic who actually thinks Healers will be offended by the SL telling them who to heal. Sorry but sometimes in the chaos of battle, or if your lagging or what not, you need to be told who to heal.
I just hope this is not the end of the line for the Squad Leaders. This is definately a nice leap in the right direction for what should be happening with the SL profession, but it definately shouldn't be the end. They need to fix how SL experience is gained, and they definately need to fix the Group Ranged Defense stats so they actually work and they really need to fix the mind cost on all the SL moves. I used Aim today in a group of 11 and it costed me 380 mind! Thats just insanity. And 225 mind to fail rally 6-10 times? Come on.
Simple comment:
I was going to drop Squad Leader, and after reading these proposed additions, I changed my mind (tentatively, need to see how they're implemented; wasn't planning on Master Squad Leader in the first place, so I'll have to see which/how many of these abilities I'd be able to afford).
In other words, they sound awesome.
im just glad we're getting noticed and having some additions made. I'll not moan and gripe or even praise and commend until ive played such added modifiers then i'll post my reaction to them.
Give the devs a chance and see what they do before bashing 
Hello Calder from Chilastra here.
You miss a lot of things proposing these kind of new abilities. I have to say there wassome posts remarking very well on the functionals of being a squadleader.
Nyase and shuyunh thumbs up!
My take:
The role of squad leading is twofold: Communications and buff, all our strengths should be in that path.
Thus all commands that force a player doing something should be GONE. The squadleader should never replace the individual, that is just making the other members bored or pissed off.
I think the movement bonus is great as are the defense modifiers. Commands that enhance offense is also good but it should not as /volleyfire force players to shoot but rather give a +XX during a time period.
The second thing that could be enhanced is the communications. Make some tool for plotting waypoints or to mark fire positions? Make as, some have very good suggested, us be able to paint targets. Maybe a command /highlight that marks your current target.
/follow me: crap
/hold fire /fire at will; This is communication we have the /sys command USE IT... Dont limit the group members.
/group attack /volleyfire: This is no good. Since the group players will have their options limited.
/cease fire: Affects other players choice so no good.
/positions? You got to be kidding? Do you not want to play the game? All these Pet commands are worthless.
/offensive /defensive stance Thi is good thought. But since we have passive defense, maybe we should have passive offense? Don't /rally do something like this? As suggested this is bad since it would force the players to do things automatically and not by own choice.
/group heal: I like the idea of a passive mind regeneration bonus. But ordinary heal, leave it to the doctors.
/group cover: This is a rifle man skill cover, why should we have it?
My final words:
If we got
50 Terrain Negotiation
25 Offensive Bonus (should either be passive or a time limit, NOT one shot)
25 Group Melee Defense
25 Group Ranged Defense
Then I am totally sold on the squadleader occupation. I think the /retreat and /rally also is pretty nice extras.
The rest is just communication and ordinary leadership.
/Calder Vanir, field commander AMTECH Security, Arch Mesa Tatooine: Chilastra
http://swg.rper.org