CUEmu - Thread Posts

ThorsAnvil

Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:40 pm

Well I am not a SL, nor do I want to be one. But one of our Guildies was one for a Holo, and we had a hoot with him being one for a while.

our only complaint was that it was too hard to keep. I dont see why you have to be a marksman to be a Squad leader, Scout sure. I am not speaking on behalf of any SL, but making the Skill point restrictions lighter would be alot better.

I think its an over all great Prof, but there are too many requirements for other profs to make people might consider this.

a Thought that occurs to me, is add a Path to squad leader on the master of all the combat prof'swith less skill point costs.

so a Master commando or a MASTER BH could spend some points in this direction.

Understand JEDI EXP (exp based on normalized kills)

Master Elite Prof 3,891,000 exp / 4200 exp = 926 Rancors for Master Elite anything
Master LightSaber 15,280,000 exp / 1000 exp = 15280 Rancors for Master LS

Alaxias

Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:46 pm

#28

Like electricnomad said, these are some interesting changes. It's a sort of creature handler for players (sounds right to me). This is a good start don't you think? A working and usefull "group retreat" command would be appreciated (you can't attack for some time but everyone get burst run for free and a bonus to defense or something like that)

Squad Leader
We’re looking at adding a fairly large amount of functionality to Squad Leader, and because of that, it won’t make this update. The stuff we’re looking at:
· Follow Me:
o Everyone in the group enqueues /follow on the leader
· In formation: Using code similar to AI's followOffset: the group follows the leader in column, wedge or line formation
· Hold Fire & Fire At Will
o No one in the group is allowed to initate combat, although they can defend and can defend vs. anyone attacking a member of their group
· Group Attack
o Ayone not already in combat will enqueue an attack vs. the leader's look-at target
· Cease Fire
o Everyone in the group enqueues /peace.
· Assign Position:
o The group leader can assign group members to "Front Line", "Support" or "Ranged" squads. Group Attack, Cease Fire, Group Cover, OffensiveStance, DefensiveStance, Hold Fire and Fire At Will can then be directed to these individual squads
· OffensiveStance
o Gives the group a temporary bonus to damage. The bigger the group the better the bonus, lowers defense.
· DefensiveStance
o Gives the group a temp bonus to defense. The bigger the group the better the bonus, lowers damage.
(i.e. Assign your tanks to "Front Line" and enqueue DefensiveStance on the front line group, then assign the ranged guys to "Ranged" and enqueue OffensiveStance on that group, etc.)
· Group Heal
o No, it doesn't heal the group: It changes the look-at target of anyone assigned to a support position to the leader's look-at target, and gives the system message "You have been ordered to heal ". Used by the leader to tell his healers who to heal. So you still have to push the button yourself (because he might not need a heal - he might need /firstAid or the like.
· Group Cover
o Enqueues a /assist for the group vs. the leader's look-at target. i.e. if I want everyone to shoot what Dan is shooting, then I look at Dan and enqeue Group Cover.
· Forced March
o Non-combat group burst-run sort of thing. Broken as soon as anyone in the group engages in combat.
· Smoke-em-if-you-got-em
o In a camp, out of combat, everyone in the group gets a mind regen bonus. The bigger the group the bigger the bonus.

DiLune

Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:55 pm

#29

That is a most foul document and is resoundingly hated here on the SL board. We aren't interested in being people handlers. In fact most people aren't interested in being "handled" by a SL. (Sorry to the Dev who made that, we love you man but that was just not a good thing you came up with!) About the only two things we could agree on were formations would be neat and forcemarch might be okay. Now that we have vehicles and mounts I think forcemarch is out too.

mlucas

Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:56 pm

#30

Thunderheart wrote:

Of course. I know this is important. Believe me, I know you guys have been incredibly patient.

Timing is everything and we're almost there...

That is a understatment this Community has been incrediblly patient wiht the footdragging we are now seeing for squad leaders and every other proffesssion .THe GCW after almost a year is totally borked and all we get is spin

mlucas

Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:58 pm

#31

10 months of hearing what do you wnat type question and re post and they are still asking ? you got to be be kidding !

Pahdbacca

Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:59 pm

#32

I have to agree with DiLune. Some of the professions in SWG are enough out of whack, SL being one of them (no offense squad leaders), that the community that plays that profession would like some input so they can flesh out what they would like to see done with their profession.

This is to the SL community and Thunderheart:

I could be way off base, not having played a SL, but will use the following as an example.....

Suppose there are abilities that the SL community would be interested in if SL were intended to be a behind the lines battlefield command-type, organizing troop movements, calling out targets, etc....

Another group of SL players are interested in front line abilities, such as morale boosts, buffs, etc

Another group likes support type abilities, and another likes combat type abilities.

Now, if Thunderheart or DiLune could come back from the Devs with one of the following

'We see SLs playing a front-line support/back line support/front line combat/back line combat role in SWG'

then the SL community could procede to concentrate putting proposals for changes that are in line with that vison, knowing that Devs are busy people and would have trouble dealing with proposals for back line support when SLs were originally intended to be in front line combat.

Otherwise, it is entirely possible that the original vision of how the profession was designed originally to function and what the community proposes to chage could be so far off that changes never get done.

If the SL community gets a little direction, then they could say, welll, things might not work out that way or, oh, if that's what you intended, we have a couple of fixes that might be easy to implement for that.

If the Devs don't want to give a vision statement (it would only have to be 3 or 4 sentances in all probability) then tell the community that. Asking for a vision statement doesn't seem to be that off-base of a request IMO.

And after SLs get their statement, find out what the Devs think of CMs

-----------------------------------------
Pip Tazo = Master Doc / Swordsman - Always the CM at heart
Zhose U'nare = Master Smuggler / Pistoleer - resource hound

Former CM correspondent - Member of Team Black Bar
" If you're dependant on venom to be effective than you're doing something wrong." - Obata

irott

Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:30 pm

#33

Very nice to see your name here TH.

/salute

The last time we had any dev involvement in our direction was on 8-22-03. If anyone remembers, that was the first big push of changes for each profession. Here is what Holocron posted for us in that thread:

Squad Leader
We’re looking at adding a fairly large amount of functionality to Squad Leader, and because of that, it won’t make this update. The stuff we’re looking at:
· Follow Me:
o Everyone in the group enqueues /follow on the leader
· In formation: Using code similar to AI's followOffset: the group follows the leader in column, wedge or line formation
· Hold Fire & Fire At Will
o No one in the group is allowed to initate combat, although they can defend and can defend vs. anyone attacking a member of their group
· Group Attack
o Ayone not already in combat will enqueue an attack vs. the leader's look-at target
· Cease Fire
o Everyone in the group enqueues /peace.
· Assign Position:
o The group leader can assign group members to "Front Line", "Support" or "Ranged" squads. Group Attack, Cease Fire, Group Cover, OffensiveStance, DefensiveStance, Hold Fire and Fire At Will can then be directed to these individual squads
· OffensiveStance
o Gives the group a temporary bonus to damage. The bigger the group the better the bonus, lowers defense.
· DefensiveStance
o Gives the group a temp bonus to defense. The bigger the group the better the bonus, lowers damage.
(i.e. Assign your tanks to "Front Line" and enqueue DefensiveStance on the front line group, then assign the ranged guys to "Ranged" and enqueue OffensiveStance on that group, etc.)
· Group Heal
o No, it doesn't heal the group: It changes the look-at target of anyone assigned to a support position to the leader's look-at target, and gives the system message "You have been ordered to heal ". Used by the leader to tell his healers who to heal. So you still have to push the button yourself (because he might not need a heal - he might need /firstAid or the like.
· Group Cover
o Enqueues a /assist for the group vs. the leader's look-at target. i.e. if I want everyone to shoot what Dan is shooting, then I look at Dan and enqeue Group Cover.
· Forced March
o Non-combat group burst-run sort of thing. Broken as soon as anyone in the group engages in combat.
· Smoke-em-if-you-got-em
o In a camp, out of combat, everyone in the group gets a mind regen bonus. The bigger the group the bigger the bonus.

Now for good reason many players scoffed at the idea... as it would have turned us into player handlers, controling a group of AFKers. Now a few of the ideas like the smoke em if you got em or the assign position were good but never developed. But this was all posted back in August of last year, and though I know there has been some changes in staff and changes in the games direction, all I really want to know is what does the team think of Squad Leaders and what their place in the game is?

The Squad Leader community knows what they want... it may not all be the same, and some of it may be outright impossible. But we have ideas. The problem is, we don't really know where we fit into this game. Every other profession has its place. Medics heal, entertainers entertain, combat classes fight, Crafters craft and politicians run cities... but what do we do? We lead squads, yet that entertainer or weaponsmith can lead a group of the same size and keep the group going by just using group chat effectively. This is why we are asking the devs to tell us what they think, because although we have our proposals and ideas... we have no idea if they are feasable due to a lack of the solid base of a defined profession.

Another wrench in the gears is our involvment in the GCW... as you might have gathered much of the community is in support of a almost symbiotic relationship for Squad Leaders and the GCW. We have come up with quite a few ideas that involve faction restricted skills and abilities, which we think would make the GCW more fun for everyone, a real war. As posted on the schedule of updates and patches... the GCW revamp comes after the Squad Leader revamp.Are our ideas worthlessif they are related to the GCW? If we even get tied in with the GCW what about neutral Squad Leaders? Should we only concentrate on generic skills that will work in any situation?

If you look at every one of our top 5's we have had over the past months, they all have the same questions. "What does /steadyaim really do?" "What is the +10 leadership bonus on humans do?" etc.... We have been ingame for almost a year now and we still don't truly know what our skills do. It is just a lack of information and we are suffering because of it. We want to enjoy our profession, we want to be effective and be able to contribute to the game, yet in our current state we are wandering around blind searching for our place.

Thank you so much for posting TH, I know the community really apreciates it including myself. Hopefully we can work together toget us what we have always wanted: Purpose.

[irott and the full effect]
Master Squad Leader

"We're all in it together" - Archibald 'Harry' Tuttle

GamerProX

Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:46 pm

#34

What would be so wrong with allowing a Squad Leader *some* Soloing type of skill. In the form of allowing them to control more than one faction pet or something of that nature. Im not talking about AT-ST's, one AT for one person is more than enough fire power. But what would the harm be in allowing a few extra Stromtroopers or Rebel Troopers, they types of pets are hardly *tanks* they wont change the tide of fighting a Nightsister or Krayt Dragon. At best they would be useful for Faction Mission, low level creatures, and a little PvP. For non-faction people, buying Mercs from Jabba could be the neutral type of NPC's they could use, or something to that effect.

Squad Leader takes a good deal of skill points, and at this point it seems the only reason to go for Master SL is if your an officer in a Guild. Otherwise your not really that important. I would hate to waste my Master Squad Leader title to be limited to group play only, getting with a group *then* becoming its leader is not as easy as it might sound. I really dont see the harm in allowing SL's to control more than one faction pet. So that if they so desire to go off on their own, they can still use some of their Squad Leader skills, and not waste them. Thats all im asking, of course SL should shine as a powerful leader in a group of players, but if possible I would like the casual player to be allowed some fun with the SL profession, if they are on their own.

Thanks

Message Edited by GamerProX on 04-06-2004 04:48 PM

Headed to World of Warcraft

InfluenzaSWTA

Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:07 pm

#35

Would all non-Squad Leaders kindly keep from posting in this thread? The last thing the SL community wants is for the developers to ignore ths thread because it has become a focal point for ranting players.

TH: please.... please don't turn us into NPC handlers. I know Runesabre is opposed to adding any more handling professions to the game, so I pray every night that he's a significant voice in the SL revamp process.

---------
Korren Faihon, Squad Leader, Alliance Ace Pilot.
The Explorer's Guide to the Clone Relics

SWG Wiki: if we don't know it, no one does.
One of the reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire was, lacking the number 0, they had no way to indicate successful return from their C programs.

DarthLithic

Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:30 pm

#36

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=squad_leader&message.id=10384

This is my 2 Cents on SL, It's gone through some 'mutations' but I think that this could justify needing the Ranged Support tree. Also, multiple AOE status effects would help the group as a whole. I think this could replace theGroup Terrain Navigationtree in SL, since everyone has vehicles, and this is now obsilete.

Chalekazza Shipworks - Chilastra - outside Mos Eisley 3124 -6036

Masen

Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:48 pm

#37

I'm not a SL (I have thought of it several times though...Does that count? LOL) but I had a couple thoughts while looking through the skill boxes and such. One, the group gets very little bonus for HAVING a sqad leader. If a raid was done RL, with no commander, it'd be a bloodbath, bodies all over, from trap after trap. A SL should be essential to any group raid, whether it's Fort Tusken or Theed.

The biggest thought that occurred to me, is that SL have no place in the GCW to speak of... for a class that is 'in theory' focused on leading combat groups, this is just moronic. I'd think the biggest bonus they should have is with faction boosts.

One is a master Squad Leader should grant group members a 10% boost or so to faction points. ANY faction, so if you get a squad leader to grind Jabba faction, it works. An immediate reward for folks who don't dabble in the class, rewarding the folks who master it and hang on to it.

Another is that they need constant boosts to group defenses and such, that have a radius. Stick close, and you get a boost from the squad leader, run off alone and you're fair game. They got some (in theory) with group terrain navigation and such, but defenses, etc would justify having ranged support 4 as a requirement.

Some group fire bonuses, and things like that. A focused fire command, that shows a system message to all group members to open fire at a target, and for each one that does a small 2-3% boost to the total damage comes to mind. A cover command, that will give anyone already prone the 'cover effect', buying a few precious seconds in a nasty encounter, ie Krayt. Things like the group burstrun command, but to stay IN combat, not get out of it.

Also, squad leaders should be able to call multiple faction pets, and only squadleaders should have ATSTs. Anyone with a squadleader should be able to buy faction perks at a reduced cost. Not a HUGE discount, but enough so Squad leaders will have some sort of bonus that comes into play when dealing with faction recruiters. Master squad leaders should be able to transfer faction pets as well, as squad commander can tell a trooper to go with him, etc. Sure it would be abused, but really, you already nerfed the pets with permadeath and all that garbage, so who cares if you can trade them?

Another thought, is that squadleaders should get free rank, one set of skill boxes maybe, one rank per bonus (link this to the same box that adds additional faction pets, or whatever?). Mainly because who ever heard of a private leading an attack squad? But also, because SL should be an essential part of the GCW, not an afterthought. Right now a SL's main bonus would be simply leading groups without terrain navigation...and with vehicles, that's a moot point now.

No I don't have a freakin sig. Just make something up and pretend it's here man. woman. umm...Whatever.

GamerProX

Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:55 pm

#38

InfluenzaSWTA wrote:

Would all non-Squad Leaders kindly keep from posting in this thread? The last thing the SL community wants is for the developers to ignore ths thread because it has become a focal point for ranting players.

TH: please.... please don't turn us into NPC handlers. I know Runesabre is opposed to adding any more handling professions to the game, so I pray every night that he's a significant voice in the SL revamp process.

Did I say NPC Handlers? No I did not, I asked for Squad Leaders to be allowed to control more than one Faction pet, so people can use their Squad Leader skills, and not waste them if they happen to be alone. You think im asking to turn the whole profession in a copy of Creature Handler and thats just stupid, and you did not pay attention to my post.

You would rather limit Squad Leader to Elite Players who either control PA's or have friends online to go hunting with. And you would totally alienate Squad Leaders who are NOT Officers in PA's, or have large groups of friends to hunt with. So whats your answer to them? Oh well, to bad, drop SL then?

Your an unguilded member of a PA, you go to Dath looking for a group, you get invited to a Rancor hunting party and say "Hi im a Squad Leader, can I be group leader to help out" 9 times out of 10 they say "No, we already got a leader" 135 skill points wasted.

Your in a PA, you go on a PvP mission with your guild, an Officer will lead the attack. 135 Skill points wasted.

Better yet! You cant find a group, so you go off to do Faction Missions for FP's and money, thats another 135 skill points wasted.

In the current state of Squad Leader, we are the only profession to *depend* on others to use any of our skills. Believe me, I *LIKE* leading people, and using the SL skills to full effect in a battle. But as much as I find myself with a group, I find myself NOT the leader, or ALONE! And it makes me sick to know im wasting 135 skill points for only half the fun the points offer me.

An easy way to fix this is allow them to control more than one Faction Pet, people ask "Whats the Leadership bonus for humans?" I say it could be used in this form. Add a Leadership row in Squad Leader (Or spread it out across SL so no one can abuse it), the more leadership points you have, the more you can control maybe. I dont know, its just a small idea and im sure all of you could come up with better ones. All im asking is to give a use to Squad Leader if your alone or not the leader, and for me thats a good 50% of the time, if not more. You cant be grouped *all* the time in this game and you will find yourself alone, with 135 skill points doing nothing to help you.

Headed to World of Warcraft

Deidre_DE

Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:28 pm

#39

Wow, it looks like they did the same thing to you squad leaders that they did to us Droid Engineers!

They told us they were going tomake us better by creating a new profession called the Droid Commander. This was essentially a CH who used droids instead of critters. Most of the posters on the DE board thought it was a bad idea, so the DEs took their marbles and went home. We got the "Droid Evasion" in it's place.

It seems that we could have learned from what they did to you guys. They said, "here! look we are fixing you into something you dont want", and when you disagreed they walked away for MONTHS and now they are finally saying they intend to come back to you.

Many of us have been pushing for Trade Federation Droids as troops for player characters. A number of us (me included) pushed for Squad Leaders to get a special certification to use multiple droids as troopsunder their command.

So, a note for the future, don't tell them what you want... tell them what they want to hear, or you're as good as screwed.

Squad Leader Archive

Thread: A New Hope A Conversation with Thunderheart