Squad Leader Archive

Running on a fan account, i have the uncounterable urge to reply to yog:

Why not have NPCs?

Easy answer: They suck!

Long answer:

Even in PvE, faction pets are only marginal useful. They die quick and they take away xp from your kills. In PvP, they get blown away in one or two shots. They have the average lifetime of a fish in a pan.

To even make their use marginally useful, they need to be comparable to the level of CH pets, to have even a meaning in PvE (they would still be useless in PvP then).

That would be 70 levels worth of Pets (or three stormtroopers for that matter).

If a profession is given an ability similar to another's, then it needs to have the same cost. Speaking about squad leader that means to devote 2 complete columns to NPC control to have the comparable level and cost of a master CH.

This means, there must be mothing in those 2 columns other than NPC control. That is half of our tree devoted to NPCs.

Lowering the amount of columns required would mean to lower the levels of Pets controlled. on a comparable level to the CH tree.

Introducing Columns with NPC control in Squad Leader, would take away columns for other abilitie and skills. Skills used for enhancing group performance, adding strategical tools, adding forts and emplacements, adding squad based weaponry...

Now you may argue "but why not have both?"

I will gleefully give you an answer to that as well:

Each Profession may only have a certain amount of "Cookies", to quote TH. With Cookies, he means abilities. The more powerful an ability, the more cookies it takes away. Giving us the same power of a CH, will take away the same amount of "Cookies", leaving us only with the rest of "cookies" available to our Profession. Read: less other abilities.

We cannot have both.

It is an either/or situation.

If we have to chose between abilities used to lead, coordinate and boost a group, or NPC control, we chose the former and disregard the latter.

Wether you like it or not, the majority of SLs want to lead players. They want to lead squads of players. And they want Squad Leaders to make a change to the Battlefield in the GCW. A fight with a Squad Leader must not only be more efficient, it also must llook more wary, less ragtag.

Thus, proposals like even Emplacements get a preference over NPC control. That and the fact, that NPCs are virtually useless.

I can understand that you want more NPCs to run around with you, for whatever reason, be it roleplaying, be it PvE, be it looks... it does not matter. Squad Leader is not the profession where you will find it in.

In addition there is to remark, that Faction pets are tied to a faction. They are not tied to professions, nor should they ever. Offering pure levels of Faction pets, would penalize neutral Squad leaders. Since a profession must stay Faction independant, this is not an option.

As a final advise: If you want more faction pets, petition for a relation of your faction rank to the number of pets controlled. It would not only be more logical, but also give rank a meaning after all.

Dogg

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Yog-Soth wrote:

If they "suck" soo bad , then where is the over-powering presence of having them ? I didn't suggest making them NPC CH's , i'm not suggesting removal of PC leading; Just saying wot would it hurt ?

Considering the fact that unless your hunting Worts right outside if Eisley , finding a group isn't that easy.( due to this solo'ing stuff)

SL's alone suck. Even in a group, combat wise they arn't anything to brag about. Slapping on some Factional NPC troops is no big deal.

I appreciate your essay on the subject, and i'm not making a arguement was just stating, why not ?

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Why not?

Because the CL of the Faction Pets is incdependant, on wether we perceive them to be powerful or not. It is set by the Devs and what they think they are.

That leaves us with a CL23 Stormtrooper, that is compltely useless in PvP and PvE.

To get pets of an even worthwile level, we would need the same amount of skillpoints devoted to their control, as a Master CH. This would give us CL70 as a pet total.

FYI: AT-STs are CL125!!!

And even AT-STs go down like a sand bag in PvP.

And finally: You must not penalize neutral Players. If a profession is denying part of their ability to neutral player, you are taking away from their enjoyment. You either have them pay less money per month, or you give them the same options. It is a simple rule and it was not formed by me. It is common sense.

I hope that answers your question.

Dogg

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Jaran88 wrote:

short and sweet reply to "why not?"

because it takes away from other stuff that could enhance the prof much more.

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You won't sway his opinion with that. He believes to be right. And he has the right to express his opinion and to ask why. But he is too blind to see the difference between usefulness and balance.

Yog: There are two factors playing here:

-Their usefulness to us as players
-Their creature Level set by the game and the CH profession.

Both have to be addressed.

That is why we cannot have Pet control, without sacrifizing half of our potential abilities.

Dogg

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irott wrote:

*whisper* Player groups will be much more important after the CB. *whisper*

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I just hope my interest will last until the CB comes.. I've played maybe 3 hours in the last 2 weeks...

Yog:

Nothing i said, even in reply to someone else was meant in an offensive way. If it came across like that, i would like to apologize right here and now.

It was a mere assumption. Making assumptions on someone's intentions is a bad thing, so i would like to apologize for that in particular.

The reason is, that this "question" was discussed up and down ever and ever again. I can't even remember how many times we already discussed NPC control.

Do a search on this board and on the "in Concept Thread on Squad Leader". Look at the number of posts in this matter. It is hundreds of posts. Literally.

Also note, that if i call you blind to the problems, it is not an offense, nor is it a weakness. If you are voicing a concern of yours, or an object of your desire, you are always emotionally affected to it (just like i am in opposition to NPC control). It clouds your vision to arguments of the opposing side. Also, my reply where i called you "blind to the arguments" was in reference to a poast that could not sway your opinion, as it did not hold any arguments. It would be a clash of opinions. And there can be no victor or decision in that.

I am not going to explain again, why no NPC control. I already did that. Multiple times. And if you take all my posts together dozens of times.

All i can hope for, is that you read through my arguments open minded and think about the consequences of introducing NPC control to SL. Think about the possibilities. Outweight them to each other. After you have done that, ask yourself, without your personal desire for NPC control, "Does it benefit the profession more than Squad based skills and abilities?"

in LVX

Dogg

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Yog-Soth wrote:

No i wasn't offended;

I just want it known that im not FOR this , and I'm not pushing it as an issue . On the other hand I'm not against it per-say either.

I just think it would be a nice perk.

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Well, here we are at the base of the issue and why it is such a sore spot with most SLs:

It would be a nice perk, granted. None of the SLs would defy it, if we would get it for free, if we would get it without having to sacrifice anything else.

Unfortunately this is not going to happen. Should NPC control ever be introduced to SLs, it would come at the expense of other abilities. And the majority of SLs is simply not willing to sacrifice any ability (even rally) for something as utterly useless (while neat, but still useless) as NPC control.

Dogg

EDIT: The reason why this will always be a heated debate, wether you want it to be like that or not, is the fear, that SOE might finally listen to something as "uncomfortable" as NPC control. It is the fear, that the revamp could fail to supply what is needed in return for NPC control. That is why we attack any proposal or even anything reminding of this idea. And it won't stop, until you say "Okay, i do not want to have NPC control with Squad Leader". Wether you mean it or not, but without this written line, this discussion will not stop.

Message Edited by InquisitorPayne on 09-15-2004 01:15 AM