Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Leadership has nothing to do with your profession.
What I've said can't be quoted in short. That's a major cause of the misunderstanding going on here. I've no right to say if your view is right or wrong and I care none either way. I'm more then willing to discussthe issue at hand but I ask not to quote only peices of what is said or it's no longer a discussion. Whatever my stance on the revamp is, it's my stance alone and I can't speak for all others. Agree or disagree, I'l atleast give people the respect to take their stance word for word and not try to twist it.
This is a big change comming our way and if we get bogged down into petty scuffles of trying to one up eachother, being too stubborn with our original opinions to take in new ideas and quote only what we want to hear, then there's no chance of our feedback takeing shape. Remember, what goes live for us doesnt only effect us, and if it's hastend it might bring us into a long period of nerfs and changes drawn out over publish after publish.
Sylow wrote:
The arguement should be "For balance reasons, it may be necessary to require squad leaders to also be group leaders, however if that balance can be addressed in otherways, then the requirement isn't necessary."
Then _please_ stop speaking philosophical stuff about the leadership quality of the player behind the character and throwing up your smokescreen but rather tell us a better suggestion on how to handle the technical problems we pointed out.
They only time I stepped into the philosophical arguements is when someone else, usually a squad leader, brought it up first. I've also posted quite a few times my opinion on how to deal with the balance issues. I've even admitted numerous times that the only solution the devs might have time for is to restrict SL to group leader, however, that's not the fix I would like to see. The balance issues I've seen can all be addressed with the following...
- Put a limit on the number of group buffs that a player can be affected by at one time.
- Change it so group buffs only affect group members within a certain proximity.
- Make sure group buffs are lost if the player disbands from the group.
- Make sure that group buffs don't get counted in Jedi vs. BH fights, unless the BH or Jedi himself was the one that applied the buff.
Beyond that, I don't think anything is really necessary. Allthe othersupposed issues can besolved by group members just talking to each toher. If the devs had more time, a /cancelAll command would be nice for squad leaders who accidently hit a wrong key or something, and an /ignoreOrder command would be nice for players to use when they know the SL in their group has done something wrong. But even those two things aren't necessary.
Message Edited by Imaridril on 09-05-2005 02:44 PM
I think what Ternque01 means is that the SL proffession in and of itself, i.e., the skillmods and specials, and not the person behind the keyboard, are nothing more than tools. JJ DID TIE BUCKLE is a list a moral traits, however moral traits only apply to the person behind the keyboard, and not the tools themself. In the case of the SL proffession, anyone is able to grind out the skill boxes and get their hands on the tools, but that doesn't mean they're going to have the traits of JJ DID TIE BUCKLE. I alsothink that that's what the original poster was trying to get across. The SL skillboxes are nothing but tools, and JJ DID TIE BUCKLE has nothing to do with balancing those tools in gameplay terms.
AlienEntity wrote:
Then you obviously don't respect SLs in any way shape or form. This has been in our forums for quite some time. If you don't like it, leave. When KJFett3 wrote it, it was respected. In plain English, you don't belong here. You have no idea of what we're about. KJFett3 has contributed this among many other bits of information that WE SLs have read and respected. Get out, you're not wanted here. Nor does anything you have to say actually matter to most of us, to some of us, you're nothing but a troll.
Ternque01 wrote:
Can we keep thisdiatribe out of the discussion? This is a GAME we're talking about here, notsomething a U.S. Marine had to memorize in boot camp
Darkside8401 wrote:
Hoorah KJFETT3 "Drevin" on the Marine Corps principles of leadership....As a Former Marine and a REAL leader for all of you kids whove only played video games..how do you know what a leader is?..because Ghost Recon says so?...in the real world..down in the dirt and blood..an officer calls the shots and gives a second in command (NCO) an objective..and that NCO gets it done by motivating and LEADING!!!! That "Leader" (officer) is mostly there to look pretty and handle the paper work...but only one leader barks at the troops...its called Chain of Command...Learn it and all will be simple
thats what ive been trying to say (and yes i know what a real leader is, ive been a real combat squad leader while deployed to iraq). the group leader is like an officer....he handles the admin stuff (setting loot settings and inviting/kicking people) and not much else, the squad leader is like an NCO (non commissioned officer......sergeants) the real battle leader, the one who moitvates, inspires and leads his troops into battle, and will sacrifice himself to ensure the survival of his squad
Squad Leader is not a profession that makes you the leader. You are right, being a leader is completely independent of your profession. Now, look how Squad Leaders work in that. It's a very good profession to weed out the incompetent ones. In the beginning, if you had a Squad Leader title, you were the leader. If you were a good leader, groups would make you their leader again. Eventually, you wouldn't even need the title, as they know you by name and will follow you. If you are not a good leader, people will not follow. People do not make you the leader, and eventually you drop the profession because it is of no use to you. That is exactly what I've seen done. I became a Squad Leader because people told me I was a good leader, and getting SL made me help out my groups even more. I've met a few Squad Leaders that are not good leaders, and they do not stay with the profession.
The other option, is that you are the SL that gives bonuses to your group, but does not lead. That happens, but is rare.
So, to wrap it up, this is not a profession that makes you leader. However, many SLs I have met, in-game or here in the forums, that have been SLs for a long time, are leaders. They are elite
Imaridril wrote:
I think what Ternque01 means is that the SL proffession in and of itself, i.e., the skillmods and specials, and not the person behind the keyboard, are nothing more than tools. JJ DID TIE BUCKLE is a list a moral traits, however moral traits only apply to the person behind the keyboard, and not the tools themself. In the case of the SL proffession, anyone is able to grind out the skill boxes and get their hands on the tools, but that doesn't mean they're going to have the traits of JJ DID TIE BUCKLE. I alsothink that that's what the original poster was trying to get across. The SL skillboxes are nothing but tools, and JJ DID TIE BUCKLE has nothing to do with balancing those tools in gameplay terms.
AlienEntity wrote:
Then you obviously don't respect SLs in any way shape or form. This has been in our forums for quite some time. If you don't like it, leave. When KJFett3 wrote it, it was respected. In plain English, you don't belong here. You have no idea of what we're about. KJFett3 has contributed this among many other bits of information that WE SLs have read and respected. Get out, you're not wanted here. Nor does anything you have to say actually matter to most of us, to some of us, you're nothing but a troll.
Ternque01 wrote:
Can we keep thisdiatribe out of the discussion? This is a GAME we're talking about here, notsomething a U.S. Marine had to memorize in boot camp
YOu better go read post #2 of my sig. In that post, I break down each part of the traits and give ideas on tools that would help SLs fullfill their duties. Better yet, I'll just post them here so I know you saw them.
Definition. Creating a favorable impression in carriage, appearance, and personal conduct at all times.
Definition. Courage is a mental quality that recognizes fear of danger or criticism, but enables a soldier to proceed in the face of it with calmness and firmness.
Definition. Ability to make decisions promptly and to announce them in a clear, forceful manner.
Definition. The certainty of proper performance of duty.
Definition. The mental and physical stamina measured by the ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress, and hardship
Definition. The display of sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of duty
Definition. Taking action in the absence of orders.
Definition. Uprightness of character and soundness of moral principles. The quality of truthfulness and honesty.
Definition. The ability to weigh facts and possible courses of action in order to make sound decisions.
Definition. Giving reward and punishment according to the merits of the case in question. The ability to administer a system of rewards and punishments impartially and consistently.
Definition. Understanding of a science or an art. The range of one's information, including professional knowledge and an understanding of your soldiers.
Definition. The quality of faithfulness to country, the Corps, and unit, and to one's seniors, subordinates, and peers.
Definition. The ability to deal with others without creating hostility.
Definition. Avoidance of providing for one's own comfort and personal advancement at the expense of others.
Now it is true that a couple of them are difficult to do as they can only be done by the guy at the keyboard, but here, we see how so many of the traits can be done as skills to help the SL do his job. Now these are jsut some of the ideas I have put together. It is not complete and I know a few things need tweeking...think f it as a rough draft not the final draft, but the ideas are there on how to do it and it be much more than ALL jsut what a guy does at his desk behind the keyboard.
!
I have been a Squad Leader, for practically forever. I beta'd SL, I have been an SL since about 3 weeks after launch(Novice, took awhile to get higher up). Now I have seen things change in this profession, that most seem to have forgotten in this arguement. One the original Squad Leaders, those of us PRE-CU remember the lessons learned, while having to earn Squad Leader XP. XP only acquired while leading the group. Now whether or not you were a leader when you started the Squad Leader profession, there was a good chance you ended up as one, for the shear fact your group would remove you from lead, if you were not effective. They usually did this by reforming their own group. Most of you should even remember, when Form Up worked in PvP....I know I do, it was just nerfed not that long ago. Now some of the signatures on here, don't even depict SL, some do, but I do know one thing for sure, asa 2 year veteran of the profession, I find that this arguement is rather silly. I went Squad Leader to help me enable my group to do more. I understand the idea/concept of letting multiple SLs benefit the group....but honestly I will add a jedi before I ever add another SL to my group. I mean no offense to other SLs, I do mean offense to jedi =D (Me being an anti-jedi and all), but this gives us the one thing original SLs should know and fear, and especially those from before publish 9 should remember well.......a dreaded series of phrases that seems most forgotten.....
FOTM and STACKER
For those that are unaware what FOTM stands for it means: Flavor of the Month. I remember the fighting in PvP as a Rifleman/SL versus the hordes of Swordsman/CM and Rifleman/CMs. I remember trying to kill the TKA/Fencer and Fencer/Swordsman. And all that allowing multiple SLs affect the group does is make us the most powerful of FOTMs and STACKER setups. Now I may be irrational, and thats fine if you think that but know this. When my guild does Necrosis, they have noticed a significant change when I am present. Cuz even under our "Deprived" set of skills and abilities, I know what to use and when to use it. How did I get this knowledge? Alot of it came from grinding out SL multiple times, to better my knowledge of the profession. So I think that if we are to make the arguement for group lead, we need to support it for a stronger request for SL xp back. Especially since there will be an abundance of SL come post revamp with the personal buffs. Now I am not sure how things work other then what I have read because, I do not have the time to grind out a character on TC, and there is no friggin blue frogs. So if I have misunderstood what is being said I apologize.
KJFett3 wrote:
Imaridril wrote:
I think what Ternque01 means is that the SL proffession in and of itself, i.e., the skillmods and specials, and not the person behind the keyboard, are nothing more than tools. JJ DID TIE BUCKLE is a list a moral traits, however moral traits only apply to the person behind the keyboard, and not the tools themself. In the case of the SL proffession, anyone is able to grind out the skill boxes and get their hands on the tools, but that doesn't mean they're going to have the traits of JJ DID TIE BUCKLE. I alsothink that that's what the original poster was trying to get across. The SL skillboxes are nothing but tools, and JJ DID TIE BUCKLE has nothing to do with balancing those tools in gameplay terms.
AlienEntity wrote:
Then you obviously don't respect SLs in any way shape or form. This has been in our forums for quite some time. If you don't like it, leave. When KJFett3 wrote it, it was respected. In plain English, you don't belong here. You have no idea of what we're about. KJFett3 has contributed this among many other bits of information that WE SLs have read and respected. Get out, you're not wanted here. Nor does anything you have to say actually matter to most of us, to some of us, you're nothing but a troll.
Ternque01 wrote:
Can we keep thisdiatribe out of the discussion? This is a GAME we're talking about here, notsomething a U.S. Marine had to memorize in boot camp
YOu better go read post #2 of my sig. In that post, I break down each part of the traits and give ideas on tools that would help SLs fullfill their duties. Better yet, I'll just post them here so I know you saw them.
The new Squad Leader (my ideas to fall in with the first post.)
A Squad Leader is.....
1. BEARING
Definition. Creating a favorable impression in carriage, appearance, and personal conduct at all times.
The thought of requesting a special uniform did cross my mind, but was quickly dismissed. Instead, I would like to ask for one small thing to be added to the game with a Novice Squad Leader requirement. An arm band. Made by Armorsmiths (as it would have armor stats), the SLAB would occupy the Left Bicep and allow for color changes the way Composite did for so long. Being worn by a Squad Leader, they would be more easily identified by the group they lead. If they dev team wanted to get creative, they could instead of linking it to color, identify it with 6 markings of which would be available to be displayed when NovSL, 4xxx, x4xx, xx4x, xxx4 and MSL was attained. They could be as basic as I, II, III, IV, V or they could be a small graphic or even a set color for each that is not changed.
2. COURAGE
Definition. Courage is a mental quality that recognizes fear of danger or criticism, but enables a soldier to proceed in the face of it with calmness and firmness.
Great leaders of the past had it. They could be seen fighting on the front line, doing things that inspired the rest of his group to push themselves a little further and thus overcoming greater odds. This skill would work by first snaring the leader in place. This is about holding the ground, not running away. It would add a temporary Melee/Ranged defense of 250 (like CoB for Melee) and also add a bonus to general ranged/melee speed and accuracy to the Squad Leader only.
3. DECISIVENESS
Definition. Ability to make decisions promptly and to announce them in a clear, forceful manner.
/sys is nice for giving orders, I don't think it should be removed, but I think we could use some help as well. Combat is crazy and no matter how many macros you make, typing those out in combat is bad news for everyone. I think a list of commands could be created, and added into the emotes that everyone already has. These would actually be available to everyone so its not really SL specific, but it would be great to just /flankr and see our toon single to the right..thus directing the group to the right, or /gflankr %NT "Squad Leader John Smith tells Drevin to flank right"(the g would instruct the command to only display in group chat.)
4. DEPENDABILITY
Definition. The certainty of proper performance of duty.
The soldiers under the Squad Leaders command are confident in his abilities to lead them and thus are able to concentrate more on their own duties..not having to worry about the overall plan. +100-200 (depending on lvl of SL) to Mind regeneration. This skill could be innate, or a special that is activated for a set amount of time. It affects the group, not the leader.
5. ENDURANCE
Definition. The mental and physical stamina measured by the ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress, and hardship
The soldiers under the Squad Leaders command see him pushing forward and are dedicated to keeping up with the Leader and their group. +100-200 (depending on lvl of SL) to Health regeneration. This skill could be innate, or a special that is activated for a set amount of time. It affects the group, not the leader.
6. ENTHUSIASM
Definition. The display of sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of duty
The soldiers under the Squad Leaders command see him doing his skills effeciantly and quickly. +100-200 (depending on lvl of SL) to Action regeneration. This skill could be innate, or a special that is activated for a set amount of time. It affects the group, not the leader.
7. INITIATIVE
Definition. Taking action in the absence of orders.
Realizing what must be done even without orders, a Squad Leader is able to command his troops in the way that is need to complete the objective. Temporarly giving his troops a bonus to Melee/Ranged general spd and accuracy. Also, determine what targets must be stop and in what order, the SL orders in volley fire on targets that are painted with a large red globe so that the entire squad knows what the target is (pretty much what Volley Fire is now, but with a faster cool down timer)
8. INTEGRITY
Definition. Uprightness of character and soundness of moral principles. The quality of truthfulness and honesty.
If the SL doesn't use drugs, he/she gains a +100 to action/health/mind while in combat with a group. Afterall, the squad doesn't want to see the Leader running off to the side to shoot up.
9. JUDGMENT
Definition. The ability to weigh facts and possible courses of action in order to make sound decisions.
Its not always about running in and attacking...sometimes defense is the best stratagy. We have survival 4, and I don't want to take away from Rangers and the faction bases, but the ability to plant a small bunker would be great. It would function as a deed, but would create a trench in the ground (would follow the rules of planting houses, not tents). Everyone would pile in, and gain a +300 defense while inside. (The Courage skill would not function while inside the bunker.) There could even be levels of bases, with the MSL base having a small turret (toned way down from what we have as far as turrets now) that is usable by a Commando. It would function in a fashion that anyhting he can shot outside the bunker, he can shot withthe gun..PVP or PVE. Naturally, thsi gun would have to be toned down, and would not function with specials. Bunkers could also be destroyed by commandos of the opposing fashion from the outside by hitting it with heavy weapons. Normal wepaons would do little to no damage to the bunker structure itself. Opposing groups with no commando would have to do an all out assault on the bunker and engage inside the bunker to take the it. Not having a door, the base would be entered by anyone, and would need to be defended well.
10. JUSTICE
Definition. Giving reward and punishment according to the merits of the case in question. The ability to administer a system of rewards and punishments impartially and consistently.
This one is difficult to put in an MMO...any ideas would be appreciated!
11. KNOWLEDGE
Definition. Understanding of a science or an art. The range of one's information, including professional knowledge and an understanding of your soldiers.
While the exmple would imply that we be certed for everything, I think that is a bit overboard. Instead, I would rather have this go towards the ability to find out Times of vulnerability in enemy bases. Maybe a quick call to the local garrison where the leader gives the WP of a single SF base on the planet that is vulnerable.
12. LOYALTY
Definition. The quality of faithfulness to country, the Corps, and unit, and to one's seniors, subordinates, and peers.
Adds a small bonus to the faction reward in combat from killing the opposing faction. 5-10% similar to the dancer buffs, and would work on top of those.
13. TACT
Definition. The ability to deal with others without creating hostility.
This is a player issue, and there isn't much the devs could add here I think.
14. UNSELFISHNESS
Definition. Avoidance of providing for one's own comfort and personal advancement at the expense of others.
This is where retreat comes in. For the good of the group, the SL gives them a bonus to get out of the bad situation at the risk of his own life.
There you have my ideas. Any additions, changes, critisism?
Now it is true that a couple of them are difficult to do as they can only be done by the guy at the keyboard, but here, we see how so many of the traits can be done as skills to help the SL do his job. Now these are jsut some of the ideas I have put together. It is not complete and I know a few things need tweeking...think f it as a rough draft not the final draft, but the ideas are there on how to do it and it be much more than ALL jsut what a guy does at his desk behind the keyboard.
I had already read your second post before, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but in the end all it is is just using the JJ DID TIE BUCKLE traits as the names for various tools. For example, the devs have givenus a button that when pressed increases the action and mind regen of everyone in the group. The devs named this tool "Boost Morale", but they could have just as easily named it "Dependability", or "Enthusiasm", or even just "Action/Mind Regen Buff". The point being that in the end its just a tool, and the name of the tool doesn't matter when it comes to determining if that tool is balanced for the game or not.
The_Azure_Phoenix wrote:
I have been a Squad Leader, for practically forever. I beta'd SL, I have been an SL since about 3 weeks after launch(Novice, took awhile to get higher up). Now I have seen things change in this profession, that most seem to have forgotten in this arguement. One the original Squad Leaders, those of us PRE-CU remember the lessons learned, while having to earn Squad Leader XP. XP only acquired while leading the group. Now whether or not you were a leader when you started the Squad Leader profession, there was a good chance you ended up as one, for the shear fact your group would remove you from lead, if you were not effective. They usually did this by reforming their own group. Most of you should even remember, when Form Up worked in PvP....I know I do, it was just nerfed not that long ago. Now some of the signatures on here, don't even depict SL, some do, but I do know one thing for sure, asa 2 year veteran of the profession, I find that this arguement is rather silly. I went Squad Leader to help me enable my group to do more. I understand the idea/concept of letting multiple SLs benefit the group....but honestly I will add a jedi before I ever add another SL to my group. I mean no offense to other SLs, I do mean offense to jedi =D (Me being an anti-jedi and all), but this gives us the one thing original SLs should know and fear, and especially those from before publish 9 should remember well.......a dreaded series of phrases that seems most forgotten.....
FOTM and STACKER
For those that are unaware what FOTM stands for it means: Flavor of the Month. I remember the fighting in PvP as a Rifleman/SL versus the hordes of Swordsman/CM and Rifleman/CMs. I remember trying to kill the TKA/Fencer and Fencer/Swordsman. And all that allowing multiple SLs affect the group does is make us the most powerful of FOTMs and STACKER setups. Now I may be irrational, and thats fine if you think that but know this. When my guild does Necrosis, they have noticed a significant change when I am present. Cuz even under our "Deprived" set of skills and abilities, I know what to use and when to use it. How did I get this knowledge? Alot of it came from grinding out SL multiple times, to better my knowledge of the profession. So I think that if we are to make the arguement for group lead, we need to support it for a stronger request for SL xp back. Especially since there will be an abundance of SL come post revamp with the personal buffs. Now I am not sure how things work other then what I have read because, I do not have the time to grind out a character on TC, and there is no friggin blue frogs. So if I have misunderstood what is being said I apologize.
in case you guys "missed it"
while you werefighting about philosophy.
KJFett3 wrote:
Imaridril, have you read this post over in the officer's club.
Yes, I read your post there, but I think you're pushing for an overly complex system that isn't needed. Now, granted, I've said many times that I agree that there needs to be some sort of limits on stacking of group buffs, but I don't think the system needs to be any more restrictive than that. I know you think that multiple SLs in the same group will be messing each other up with contradicting orders, but myself and others feel that the playerbase will be able to deal with that adequately simply by talking to each other in group chat. You also said that you think that if more than one SL is in a group, that the individual buffs of the secondary SLs should have diminished strength. Again, I don't think this is necessary. Its not like your group will be getting those extra buffs for free. Someone will have had to have spent skillpoints in order to get those SL boxes, which means that they'll be lacking in some other area. On topof that,the individual buffs are a one for one tradeoff, i.e., the SL who uses them can only affect one person per action with them. In theory, this should make them balanced against something such as say duelist stance, or a doctor buff, both of which take similar skillpoint investments to get.
Taking all the above into consideration, that is why I've posted before that I think the following fixes would be enough...
- Limit it so that a player can only be affected by one group buff at a time. (Should be no harder to impliment than putting the GL restriction back in.)
- Change it so that group buffs only affect group members within a certain proximity. (This is necessary so that groups don't just leave their SL back in a safe house with a group buff macro running.)
- Change it so that SL buffs are lost when a player disbands from the group. (So that SLs don't turn into buff sellers outside starports.)
- Change it so that SL buffs have no effect in a Jedi vs BH fight unless the Jedi or BH was the one who applied the SL buff.
With the above changes players could choose to have only one SL in their group if they wanted, but at the same time a group could choose to have more without becoming overpowered. It would allow leadership of the group to be more dynamic, i.e., different players taking command in different situations, or players stepping up into the leadership position when the current leader gets killed, or multiple SLs delegating between each other who is going to handle what SL tools. It would also allow groups to remain more flexible, i.e., a group of eight that gets split up into two seperate "squads" could continue to function as normal without having to disband and rejoin as two seperate groups. The only issue my proposed fixes don't address is the fear that multiple SLs who aren't working together will mess each other up, however I feel that the playerbase has proven already with similar group issues that they can takecare of such things simply by communicating with each other in group chat.