Squad Leader Archive

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CommanderFarley wrote:

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KJFett3 wrote:

I have but one thing to say to this OP that clearly has no idea what he is talking about.

You will find this is a direct quote form a post I started and is linked in my sig. This is what a Aquad Leader is. Now, please point out where there is zero leadership in this definition of Squad Leader.

A Squad Leader is a soldier, but what sets them apart from the Commando or the Rifleman? Leadership.

Message Edited by KJFett3 on 09-05-200503:54 PM

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I have to respectfully disagree. Your definition holds 100% true for our military. I simply make the distinction between a real life Squad Leader and the SWG squad leader.

You don't go to your Doctor in real life to get "buffed up" before a workout. The real lfie/gameplay discussion is indeed a nebulous, philosophical one.

As for what sets the Squad Leader in SWG apart from the Commando or Rifleman? From a technical standpoint, nothing but their skill mods and specials.

Actually I would say the difference is in the viewpoint of the player. People pick up commando because they want to be the person who blows the crap out of things. Rifleman to kill at range. People pick SL to lead squads. Technical skills aside the players who are currently drawn to SL are those who want to be leaders. If you remove that from them you basically are saying that SLswere never worth being leaders.

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KJFett3 wrote:

I have but one thing to say to this OP that clearly has no idea what he is talking about.

You will find this is a direct quote form a post I started and is linked in my sig. This is what a Aquad Leader is. Now, please point out where there is zero leadership in this definition of Squad Leader.

A Squad Leader is a soldier, but what sets them apart from the Commando or the Rifleman? Leadership.

This info is taking from http://www.armywives.com/knowledge/traits.htm and is titled Leadership Traits.

1. BEARING
   
   
   
   1. Definition. Creating a favorable impression in carriage, appearance, and personal conduct at all times.
      
   2. Significance. The ability to look, act, and speak like a leader whether or not these manifestations indicate one's true feelings. Some signs of these traits are clear and plain speech, an erect gait, and impeccable personal appearance.
      
   3. Example. Wearing clean, pressed uniforms, and shining boots and brass. Avoiding profane and vulgar language. Keeping a trim, fit appearance. Keeping your head, keeping your word and keeping your temper.
   
   
2. COURAGE
   
   
   
   1. Definition. Courage is a mental quality that recognizes fear of danger or criticism, but enables a soldier to proceed in the face of it with calmness and firmness.
      
   2. Significance. Knowing and standing for what is right, even in the face of popular disfavor, is often the leader's lot. The business of fighting and winning wars is a dangerous one; the importance of courage on the battlefield is obvious.
      
   3. Example. Accepting criticism for making subordinates field day for an extra hour to get the job done correctly.
   
   
3. DECISIVENESS
   
   
   
   1. Definition. Ability to make decisions promptly and to announce them in a clear, forceful manner.
      
   2. Significance. The quality of character which guides a person to accumulate all available facts in a circumstance, weigh the facts, choose and announce an alternative which seems best. It is often better that a decision be made promptly than a potentially better one be made at the expense of more time.
      
   3. Example. A leader who sees a potentially dangerous situation developing, immediately takes action to prevent injury from occurring. For example, if he/she sees a unit making a forced march along a winding road without road guards posted, he/she should immediately inform the unit leader of the oversight, and if senior to that unit leader, direct that proper precautions be taken.
   
   
4. DEPENDABILITY
   
   
   
   1. Definition. The certainty of proper performance of duty.
      
   2. Significance. The quality which permits a senior to assign a task to a junior with the understanding that it will be accomplished with minimum supervision. This understanding includes the assumption that the initiative will be taken on small matters not covered by instructions.
      
   3. Example. The squad leader ensures that his/her squad falls out in the proper uniform without having been told to by the platoon sergeant. The staff officer, who hates detailed, tedious paperwork, yet makes sure the report meets his/her and his/her supervisor's standards before having it leave his desk.
   
   
5. ENDURANCE
   
   
   
   1. Definition. The mental and physical stamina measured by the ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress, and hardship
      
   2. Significance. The quality of withstanding pain during a conditioning hike in order to improve stamina is crucial in the development of leadership. Leaders are responsible for leading their units in physical endeavors and for motivating them as well.
      
   3. Example. A soldier keeping up on a 10-mile forced march even though he/she has blisters on both feet and had only an hour of sleep the previous night. An XO who works all night to ensure that promotion/pay problems are corrected as quickly as humanly possible because he/she realizes that only through this effort can one of his/her soldiers receive badly needed back-pay the following morning.
   
   
6. ENTHUSIASM
   
   
   
   1. Definition. The display of sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of duty
      
   2. Significance. Displaying interest in a task, and an optimism that it can be successfully completed, greatly enhances the likelihood that the task will be successfully completed.
      
   3. Example. A soldier who leads a chant or offers to help carry a load that is giving someone great difficulty while on a hike despite being physically tired himself, encourages his fellow soldiers to persevere.
   
   
7. INITIATIVE
   
   
   
   1. Definition. Taking action in the absence of orders.
      
   2. Significance. Since an NCO often works without close supervision, emphasis is placed on being a self-starter. Initiative is a founding principle of Army Warfighting philosophy.
      
   3. Example. In the unexplained absence of the platoon sergeant, an NCO takes charge of the platoon and carries out the training schedule.
   
   
8. INTEGRITY
   
   
   
   1. Definition. Uprightness of character and soundness of moral principles. The quality of truthfulness and honesty.
      
   2. Significance. A soldier's word is his/her bond. Nothing less than complete honesty in all of your dealings with subordinates, peers, and superiors is acceptable.
      
   3. Example. A soldier who uses the correct technique on the obstacle course, even when he/she cannot be seen by the evaluator. During an inspection, if something goes wrong or is not corrected as had been previously directed, he/she can be counted upon to always respond truthfully and honestly.
   
   
9. JUDGMENT
   
   
   
   1. Definition. The ability to weigh facts and possible courses of action in order to make sound decisions.
      
   2. Significance. Sound judgment allows a leader to make appropriate decisions in the guidance and training of his/her soldiers and the employment of his/her unit. A soldier who exercises good judgment weighs pros and cons accordingly to arrive at an appropriate decision/take proper action.
      
   3. Example. A soldier properly apportions his/her liberty time in order to relax as well as to study.
   
   
10. JUSTICE
    
    
    
    1. Definition. Giving reward and punishment according to the merits of the case in question. The ability to administer a system of rewards and punishments impartially and consistently.
       
    2. Significance. The quality of displaying fairness and impartiality is critical in order to gain the trust and respect of subordinates and maintain discipline and unit cohesion, particularly in the exercise of responsibility as a leader.
       
    3. Example. Fair apportionment of tasks by a squad leader during all field days. Having overlooked a critical piece of evidence which resulted in the unjust reduction of a NCO in a highly publicized incident, the CO sets the punishment aside and restores him to his previous grade even though he knows it will displease his seniors or may reflect negatively on his fitness report. (Also an example of courage.)
    
    
11. KNOWLEDGE
    
    
    
    1. Definition. Understanding of a science or an art. The range of one's information, including professional knowledge and an understanding of your soldiers.
       
    2. Significance. The gaining and retention of current developments in military and naval science and world affairs is important for your growth and development.
       
    3. Example. The soldier who not only knows how to maintain and operate his assigned weapon, but also knows how to use the other weapons and equipment in the unit.
    
    
12. LOYALTY
    
    
    
    1. Definition. The quality of faithfulness to country, the Corps, and unit, and to one's seniors, subordinates, and peers.
       
    2. Significance. The motto of our Corps is Semper Fidelis, Always Faithful. You owe unswerving loyalty up and down the chain of command: to seniors, subordinates, and peers.
       
    3. Example. A soldier displaying enthusiasm in carrying out an order of a senior, though he may privately disagree with it. The order may be to conduct a particularly dangerous patrol. The job has to be done, and even if the patrol leader disagrees, he must impart confidence and enthusiasm for the mission to his men.
    
    
13. TACT
    
    
    
    1. Definition. The ability to deal with others without creating hostility.
       
    2. Significance. The quality of consistently treating peers, seniors, and subordinates with respect and courtesy is a sign of maturity. Tact allows commands, guidance, and opinions to be expressed in a constructive and beneficial manner. This deference must be extended under all conditions regardless of true feelings.
       
    3. Example. A soldier discreetly points out a mistake in drill to a NCO by waiting until after the unit has been dismissed and privately asking which of the two methods are correct. He/she anticipates that the NCO will realize the correct method when shown, and later provide correct instruction to the unit.
    
    
14. UNSELFISHNESS
    
    
    
    1. Definition. Avoidance of providing for one's own comfort and personal advancement at the expense of others.
       
    2. Significance. The quality of looking out for the needs of your subordinates before your own is the essence of leadership. This quality is not to be confused with putting these matters ahead of the accomplishment of the mission.
       
    3. An NCO ensures all members of his unit have eaten before he does, or if water is scarce, he will share what he has and ensure that others do the same. Another example occurs frequently when a soldier receives a package of food from home: the delicacies are shared with everyone in the squad. Yet another form of unselfishness involves the time of the leader. If a soldier needs extra instruction or guidance, the leader is expected to make his/her free time available whenever a need arises.

Many soldiers remember these traits with the acronym JJ DID TIE BUCKLE

Justice Judgement Dependability I nitiative Decisiveness Tact I ntegrity Enthusiam

Bearing Unselfishness Courage Knowledge Loyalty Endurance

I believe that the devs have the ability to put all of these things into our profession. Some would be small things, but others would help turn the tide against a less organized group. I heard it said once that the devs don't want to make it a requirement that a Squad Leader be in every group for a group to be effective. I believe that goal can be met while still allowing the profesison to be a key player in group actions where the tide is turned when a Squad Leader actually leads his/her troops.

Message Edited by KJFett3 on 09-05-2005 03:54 PM

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Can we keep thisdiatribe out of the discussion? This is a GAME we're talking about here, notsomething a U.S. Marine had to memorize in boot camp

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Ackehece wrote:

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CommanderFarley wrote:

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KJFett3 wrote:

I have but one thing to say to this OP that clearly has no idea what he is talking about.

You will find this is a direct quote form a post I started and is linked in my sig. This is what a Aquad Leader is. Now, please point out where there is zero leadership in this definition of Squad Leader.

A Squad Leader is a soldier, but what sets them apart from the Commando or the Rifleman? Leadership.

Message Edited by KJFett3 on 09-05-200503:54 PM

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I have to respectfully disagree. Your definition holds 100% true for our military. I simply make the distinction between a real life Squad Leader and the SWG squad leader.

You don't go to your Doctor in real life to get "buffed up" before a workout. The real lfie/gameplay discussion is indeed a nebulous, philosophical one.

As for what sets the Squad Leader in SWG apart from the Commando or Rifleman? From a technical standpoint, nothing but their skill mods and specials.

Actually I would say the difference is in the viewpoint of the player. People pick up commando because they want to be the person who blows the crap out of things. Rifleman to kill at range. People pick SL to lead squads. Technical skills aside the players who are currently drawn to SL are those who want to be leaders. If you remove that from them you basically are saying that SLswere never worth being leaders.

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Which Ackehece, is why I am leaving the forums for a while. I chose to lead squads, not follow in a squad. Check my new sig and it pretty much somes it up for me.

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Ternque01 wrote:

Can we keep thisdiatribe out of the discussion? This is a GAME we're talking about here, notsomething a U.S. Marine had to memorize in boot camp

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Then you obviously don't respect SLs in any way shape or form. This has been in our forums for quite some time. If you don't like it, leave. When KJFett3 wrote it, it was respected. In plain English, you don't belong here. You have no idea of what we're about. KJFett3 has contributed this among many other bits of information that WE SLs have read and respected. Get out, you're not wanted here. Nor does anything you have to say actually matter to most of us, to some of us, you're nothing but a troll.

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CommanderFarley wrote:

3) multiple SLs, leader at 100%, "secondaries" at reduced effectiveness.

It's my personal opinion, and has been posted by several others, that option #3 seems to be the most balanced option available.

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It's unfortunate that there's such a big misunderstanding. What those who are newly posting here are saying is what we've shared with new SL's for a long time, that leadership is in a persons nature and not in the game mechanics. What they forget or choose to overlook, is what some of our more knowledgeable SL's are trying to bring to light.

We're not interesting in being overbearing control freaks, but haveing the ability to keep our teams orginized and balanced. It's unreasonable to ask, but if people would search through a few pages of our forum before the announcement of the revamp, they'd see that their view is shared by us in matter of the big picture. What we have to be concerned with is longevity and the possible abuse and exploitation of the new set of skills which could very easily backfire on us in the form of nerfs andcalls for balance. If that happens, then it wouldnt bode very well for the other professions in line for a revamp.

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captiansarcasmo wrote:

who types /invite is not the issue here

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Who types /invite shouldn't be the issue here, but for a lot of people it appears to be.

The arguement shouldNOT be "Squad leaders should be group leaders because that's what we do."

The arguement should be "For balance reasons, it may be necessary to require squad leaders to also be group leaders, however if that balance can be addressed in otherways, then the requirement isn't necessary."

well said nitan

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The arguement should be "For balance reasons, it may be necessary to require squad leaders to also be group leaders, however if that balance can be addressed in otherways, then the requirement isn't necessary."

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Then _please_ stop speaking philosophical stuff about the leadership quality of the player behind the character and throwing up your smokescreen but rather tell us a better suggestion on how to handle the technical problems we pointed out.

Next to my compromise, which is comparatively close to some old mechanics and thus should be easy to implement, there wasa second suggestion where the game would determine the first SL to enter a group to be the "leading SL" in group who can use all his abilities, but if further SLs would join the group the first SL would have the option to allow other SLs to use some of the specials. Doing this would leave him unable to use the abilities himself, though.

I admit that this system is more sophisticated and might even make more sense in terms of some military, but i also have to say, it's immensely more complex to code, as there is nothing like that in the game already. So while i appreciate the idea behind it, i feel that we won't have any chance to get it.

If you have any better suggestion on how to handle things, or if you have _any_ suggestion on how the mechanics could work, i beg you to please share that wisdom with us, any good idea is very welcome. Just please stop this philosophical "leader is not leader" discussion, oki?

i dont know for any one else, buti became a SL to help lead groups and give them one specific person to listen too. i get many orders from more experienced/organised players who know exactly what is happening. if there is some one like that in my group i wil gladly let them take command and i will follow there orders.

but with any situation or profession you will get the odd person who demands to be in charge and demands as that everyone listens to them, but i dont imagine as that they get very far and most people have enough commmon sense to remember them and avoid them. every single SL i have met in the gameis genuine,honest and has a talent toget a feel for the group and a will to listen to commands givin to them as well as issue them.

i have been playing for 5 months now and i have been a MSL for 4 of them months. We SL's are by far not the strongest profesion in raw fire power and will most likely struggle if not get slain in a 1-on-1 match against a jedi (which unfortunatly PvP seems to be about on Ahazi) but we make that sacrafice to help the greater good.

thats my reasoning, i dunno about anyone else but it feels right to me