CUEmu - Thread Posts

Sylow

Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:37 pm

Only one group-buff at a time? Now, that's interesting, this restriction is harder than what we by now came to agree upon. If you implement this limit, you indeed have fixed the balance issues which trouble me the most. Unfortunately, i don't see how you want to regulate this "only one buff at a time" principle... first one counts, the rest is dropped? Last one overrides the previous ones?

Both solutions have their issues, the "group leader only" version does the same but clearly determines who does the job. (I personally would be more happy if i am second in group and can't use my buffs at all, than having them overridden every two seconds. At least i wouldn't be wasting action and mind points.) The one-group-buff solution thus again does exactly what we came to agree the Devs want to fix by allowing the new system: allowing several SL players to have fun while being in the same group.

There were several systems proposed and i admit that "my" suggestion can't compete with the superior new proposals. The one i like most is the system with skill modifiers in every SL box which determine the power of the buffs. (A team of 8 Master SLs will have mighty buffs. But they sacrifice so many skillpoints, they won't be effective any more, either... a team of 8 dabblers will be very effective in their mail fields of operation but only have weak buffs which can be scaled to be in balance to the rest of the game.)

Then you only have to limit a very small number of buffs (which most players are not interested in, anyways) to the group leader position, and you have a perfect system, in my eyes.

It actually allows more buffs used than in the proposed system, so is not as restrictive, but can be well scaled for balance. As long as i don't hear anything better, this one has my full support.

Learn to sing!
Infinity - Papyn Biboon

~~MSL, MCarb~~ Grunt Leader

jphillips1868

Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:54 pm

#41

I think you are missing the point. While its true having the SL profession doesn't make you a good leader--that comes from temperament, knowledge, integrity, etc. And respect must be earned with action not a title.

However, the point is the SL profession should be fun and viable for players that enjoy leading groups. By allowing multiple SL's in a group abilities to stack, the profession is no longer providing a fun experience for players that enjoy leading groups, its about providing a generalized white mage combat skills, in the new FOTM all squad leader groups.

If you aren't interested in leading groups, pick another profession. If you are pick SL and lead groups. If you are good at it and enjoy it, stick with it. If not, find another profession that you enjoy. But don't expect to be a SL when you are interested in leading.

TireeG2

Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:19 am

#42

CommanderFarley wrote:

...

Let us put aside the philosophical debate, because we will never achieve a consensus. Let's work TOGETHER on the issue of multiple SLs in a group. Let's present a united front to the Dev team on whether we want

1) Single SL as group lead

2) multiple SLs, group lead irrelevant

3) multiple SLs, leader at 100%, "secondaries" at reduced effectiveness.

4) Single SL, group lead irrelevant

These are pretty much the three options we're looking at. I believe many of us fear #2 easily becoming overpowered. In my opinion, #1 and #4 have only a semantic difference.

It's my personal opinion, and has been posted by several others, that option #3 seems to be the most balanced option available.

I think this is really what needs to be discussed right now. These appear to be the logical options for what SL could become. I don't agree with everything you've said Chu'ma, but I do also believe #3 is the best option here. I believe that this option makes sense from both a mechanical and RP point of view, both of which need to be satisfied.

My reasoning:

-Squad Leader's are meant to lead. I think this is is a given really. Whether or not the SL is a good leader or not is up to the player, and is really irrelevent. However, the SL profession should provide a toolset to accomodate this position.

In my mind this means the SL should:

-be GL, for the admin functions. This gives the leader of the group authority. Authority is something the leader should have anyways, however, I believe that the mechanics of the game should also support this.

- have leader only access to organizational tools (such as the WP and Sys Msg).Abilities to improve the ability to lead should be one of the most important abilities to the prof.

- have combat abilitiesand specials benefitting the entire the group as leader. Hard combat benefits from SL are a given really. I beleive for balance issues only one person should have access to the most beneficial abilities. From an RP perspective, I believe that the leader should be the most effective provider of these abilities because the squad should be focused more on that leader's commands more than anyone else in the group.

-However, from a gameplay point of view, I believe it would be beneficial to everyone if SLs had access to some abilities even if not leader or if multiple SLs are present. From the gameplay standpoint this lets the prof. still at least be useful in all cases.

From the RP standpoint, the argument could be made that a SL is knowledgeable of group fighting, psycholgy,and a combat veteran. As such he could provide moral boosts and in general increase the effectiveness of those fighting around him.

If you didn't read any of this, in short:

I vote that SLs should have abilites that are most effective when they are the leader of the group. To make play enjoyable for SLs though, an SL should still have abilites that benefit the group even if there is another leader present.

Message Edited by TireeG2 on 09-12-2005 01:44 PM

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Norbert

Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:22 pm

#43

Holy crap! I just realized I don't belong here.

I didn't pick SL because I want to tell people how to play the game. I picked it so I could help groups play better. Yes, I try to know what roles everyone should be playing and will make suggestions when people start doing stupid stuff. I guess this is the wrong attitude. I just don't see how you can build a game mechanic that will MAKE someone be like a real Squad Leader. To me, that is outside the game.

Sorry, I'll drop SL IMMEDIATELY! I'll drop back into some profession that doesn't have Courage.

TireeG2

Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:08 am

#44

Norbert wrote:
Holy crap! I just realized I don't belong here.

I didn't pick SL because I want to tell people how to play the game. I picked it so I could help groups play better. Yes, I try to know what roles everyone should be playing and will make suggestions when people start doing stupid stuff. I guess this is the wrong attitude. I just don't see how you can build a game mechanic that will MAKE someone be like a real Squad Leader. To me, that is outside the game.

Sorry, I'll drop SL IMMEDIATELY! I'll drop back into some profession that doesn't have Courage.

I'm not sure if this was in response to my post at all, but let me try to clarify my thoughts just in case.

I think Galaxies has a really unique role for a chracter here, and it's one I like. In any group, mmorpg or otherwise you tend to have people that stand out as leaders. What I like about SL, is that more than just a typical support profession (like a bard or something), it helps facilitatethat person's ability to lead, and hopefully make the group better because of it.

I know galaxies lacks real cleary defined support profession (doc is probably the most support oriented) and squad leader seems to fill that role. I think however, that it should be more than that. I appreciate that people want to help the group and want to use SL as an avenue to that, that's why I'm in favor of giving secondary SLs beneficial abilities too. But, I think SL has the potential to support a new kind of role in an mmorpg, a new play style. I don't see having the SL tag making someone a good leader, they have to do that themselves. To be fair though, being master doc doesn't make someone good at keeping their group alive, and being MBH doesn't necessarily mean you're good at killing. I think the reason you pick any of these profs is to use it as avenue to that play style.

I think the SL profession should be an avenue for people that want to lead.

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captiansarcasmo

Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:04 pm

#45

this discussion got so silly. everyone is talking about philosophy. the discussion started with concerns to game mechanics, and how the sl/gl change had brought on some problems mechanically. it turned into, "the current sl want to be gl to bark orders".

i don't want to gl for a head trip, i want to be gl so stuff works right. if i'm doing something someone else in my group knows more about, they will lead us through the quest, while i'm doing my "game mechanic" squadleading. i will be the same "leader" i am now after pub 24, they can't adjust any game mechanics to change that. they can however change the game mechanics to make playing sl a pain. once you guys see 4 squadleaders shouting "fire on my target" in spacial at 3 different targets maybe you guys might see what everyone was trying to say.

now the whole discussion is moot. days ago it was announced that this is the way it is. we have better things to discuss now anyways.

jailyn

Norbert

Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:42 pm

#46

No, Tiree, that wasn't in response to you. Note to self: sarcasm really doesn't translate over the internet.

I understand people that pride themselves in leading groups...and leading them efficiently. What crawls under my skin is this notion that only someone that selects the SL profession can do so. Leadership is not a mechanic in the game. You don't have to be SL to lead and being SL doesn't mean you are a good leader. Being a good leader means you are a good leader.

I don't know that making colorful system messages appear on your group members screens really gives you an advantage over someone who can't do that. Nor do I see how being required to be group leader to gather xp would mean you are a good leader. Its like saying Riflemen have the best aim. You are equating a real life quality with an in-game mechanic. One doesn't give you the other.

IMO what separates the SLs from others is the notion of "group before self". SLs sacrifice xp and SPs that could be used to make themselves more powerful, so that we can make others around us more powerful. The simple purpose for the SL is to help the group. However, even though I don't think [insert all the above here], I do think those people that pride themselves on leading groups and managing groups will benefit from being a SL, and I think the new buffs will give you even more tools to do that. You won't be limited to just out of game leadership, but also have tools in-game that will help you manage the group. That's where I see the marriage between being leader and being an SL.

Back to the topic: My preference would be to make SL be GL for most abilites, while some would be available to non-GL SLs. Not so much because I think SLsneed to be leading groups, but I feel some of these abilities need to be limited and we already know there is a game mechanic to limit abilities based on GL. We don't want 2 people painting targets or yelling "charge!", amongst other things.

The only thing good about not being required to be GL is that I don't have to ask for /makeleader everytime I join a group, and that's not really that big of deal.

Sylow

Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:23 pm

#47

@Norbert:

I can agree with about anything you said, just at some easlier postings wished you didn't use that sarcasm... I mean, i have the privilege to be grumpy and bite at people here, and even this is limited to fridays only, so we can't all go bite each other here... *grin*

With a bit more serious tone, i sometimes wonder if you change positions within your postings or if i just have the feeling sometimes. Anyways, i can fully agree with you on the result of the posting, the profession is here to make leading easier, just having grinded the profession doesn't yet make you a leader (not even speaking of good or bad) at all. But for those who are leaders, the profession should be helpful, and the current system is a bit too open for that.

And last not least, by now it regularily happens to me when i group with people who already know me, i join the team and while i still type the "Could you please be so nice and do /makeleader on my so i can give my bonuses to the group." i get the message that leadership just got moved to me... so, i don't even have to ask for it any more, the more experienced people give it to me automatically.

Learn to sing!
Infinity - Papyn Biboon

~~MSL, MCarb~~ Grunt Leader

TireeG2

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:35 am

#48

Ok, I'm glad that we seem to be kinda on the same page here. I guess what's left is to just try and find where that balance is, just exactly how much of the SL skills should be restricted to GL. I'm a little more on the GL gets more abilities side. I know there's pros and cons to both, so I think I could be happy with some compromise. I don't think I would have a problem with having other SLs giving bonus buffs,just keep theGL with the moreactive battleand administrative/organizational abilities.

I'm really just glad that our prof is finally getting some love after all this time, I have faith that when this finally hits live it will be good.

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Norbert

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:34 am

#49

Yes, I do sometimes change my position, even within a posting. I'll listen to what other people say and re-evaluate what I think. Sometimes that even means while I am typing my own thoughts. hehe

Norbert

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:30 pm

#50

One question I have is should the SL abilities that allow you to communicate be in a normal profession (like SL) or should all GLs get them? Possibly even make SL a profession outside the SP system, like Politician.

The SL profession is kind of complicated in that we have some abilities, like /sys and the new waypoint, that enhance communicating with the group, and other abilities that are used within the game mechanics to adjust skills and abilities. The group communication add no inherent benefit to the group in terms of combat itself, other than the implied benefit of being better organized. Why not allow any GL to have these tools? They are the "leader", right? Allow GL to /sys and paint a target.

Then take the group support abilites and add them to a profession that doesn't have "leader" in it's name.

Then Leaders can form groups and have those GL abilities available to them, and at the same time, if they want to add group support abilities to their profession, they have that option. If you want to differentiate between people that have led many groups and those that haven't, add something like the Politician progession based on GL time.

I know this would take a huge game change, but I'm thinking it could help satisfy the "leaders" and the "players" in the SL dilemma. Just something for discussion.

TireeG2

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:48 pm

#51

Well, that is one option.If I understand correctly though,what you're really talking about is the dissolving of the SL profession though. I really can't agree with that. I mean, it may be a way to satisfy both parties, but I'd much rather see a compromise between the two made. Squad Leader is really unique and I'd hate to see it broken up because of a role dispute.That, andI personally kind of like the advanced group control abilites being available to SLs only actually.

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Norbert

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:10 pm

#52

Actually, what I would really recommend is for the SL profession to become more like Politician - outside the SP model. The group buff/individual buff stuff would move to a new support profession within the SP model to take the place of the current SL.

Gain SL skills by some GL metric, like amount of xp your group gains over time or something, sort of like the old method. This could then open up skill boxes that would just be group leader type enhancements, like /sys and painting targets and group waypoints. I don't know if there is enough to fill a whole prefession tree, but I think you get what I mean. No group buffs would be included. This new profession would be the Squad Leader profession, and I think all the current SLs would start ahead in this profession - Master SLs should stay Master SLs.

The group buffs would be a profession under the current SP model that would certainly enhance a SL, but not be required.

It would still be an accomplishment to become a Master SL, but it would separate the Group Leader skills from the Group Enhancement skills.

I usually stay away from the "gee, it would be cool if..." posts, but you never know.

Squad Leader Archive

Thread: Leadership has nothing to do with your profession.