Squad Leader Archive

Argh, NO, DON'T remove the terrain negotiation line, if you do anything then move the terrain stat mods into another line. Terrain negotiation is the only useful thing we have, and usually is the only reason people group with a squad leader.

"Thats not what I said, I said PEOPLE GROUP DEPENDENT."

And that's what I meant, people group dependent. There are other options for people who don't want to group.

"... by practicing making goods the Artisan earns XP without *ever* having to sell a single item."

I didn't say gain XP. I said succeed. Maybe we're laying bare the foundation for your argument here, and exposing why you and I differ. I play to have fun. The xp comes trailing along like a bounding puppy whose head I scratch at the end of the night. You look to be someone for whom XP is paramount, and the fact you can't level fast enough in squad leader is frustrating you.

Look, in this game, the point of succeeding as an armorsmith or a weaponsmith isn't really just collecting a bunch of xp, is it? Isn't it in large part about playing a role in a community and the economy? Why else would you do it? The most passionate talk I've seen on the weaponsmiths' board doesn't have to do with how much XP they get for making a run of rifles or how rich they can get, it has to do with wanting the respect of other players. After all, this is a social game designed to have some components that appeal to people who want to solo, not the other way around.

It's my firm belief that squad leader, as the only social combat profession in this game (see below), was intentionlly designed the way it is to foster leadership and community among the PC combat classes. You want it to be "creature handler with stormtroopers." We see things differently. It's what makes the world a great place.

"So we should deliberately keep this profession underpowered to scare off the dreaded "script kiddies?""

Of course not. Fix what needs fixing to make the class functional and fun. My argument is that adding NPC squads will not do that. It will just diminish the diversity in the game, replace wits with macros and entice the powerlevelers who primarily want trophies to show off to all the underwear-clad "girls" in the cantina and the extra firepower so they can be the baddest PvPers in the universe.

"This is not an obviously social profession. Squad Leaders get XP without ever having to group with a real life person if they never wanted to and thats the way it should be..."

Here we go again with the XP. You may get XP, but NONE of your skills work solo. What good is a skilless squad leader beyond whatever other skills you bring to the field? Zero. You see that as a problem. I see it as highly appropriate.
I mean, once player cities are put in, are we going to start hearing politician types complain that they should be able to populate their cities with extra NPCs because they're just not moving up the ranks fast enough?

Squad leaders LEAD.

" You look to be someone for whom XP is paramount, and the fact you can't level fast enough in squad leader is frustrating you."

You dare to presume what my goals in this game are andthat I'm simply after XP, which in and of itself is worthless? I have never said anything that would even closely resemble that I'm frustrated because you think I can't level fast enough. That nonsense makes for good rhetoric but it has no place here.

"Look, in this game, the point of succeeding as an armorsmith or a weaponsmith isn't really just collecting a bunch of xp, is it? Isn't it in large part about playing a role in a community and the economy? Why else would you do it?"

I have never said that the point of the game was about collecting xp, and by definition all players are playing some part in the community economy (Duh, thats why they're called players).

" My argument is that adding NPC squads will not do that. It will just diminish the diversity in the game, replace wits with macros and entice the powerlevelers who primarily want trophies to show off to all the underwear-clad "girls" in the cantina and the extra firepower so they can be the baddest PvPers in the universe."

Thats quite absurd, the Creature Handler is only one other class, giving us abilities to handle NPCswould serve to diversify the pet-oriented classes, make us a viable profession, and allow those of us who do not wish to be dependent on others for our xp to have fun.

"Here we go again with the XP. You may get XP, but NONE of your skills work solo."

If you mean by "solo" that I am without pets yes thats true, with pets the SL bonuses still apply to them and me as they should.

"I mean, once player cities are put in, are we going to start hearing politician types complain that they should be able to populate their cities with extra NPCs because they're just not moving up the ranks fast enough?"

You're baseless argument seems to hinging on this notion that those of us who want to be able togroup with our pets are disatisfied with the pace at which we receive SL xp. Obviously you're missing the point: I want both options to be viable, the Squad Leader should have powerful bonuses that apply to both pets and humans. My argument is with those deluded "martyrs" who want to keep this profession in the dirt because they want to make us completely dependent on real people to get XP, and that this somehow makes the profession "noble" and "honorable."

We are Squad Leaders whether we are leading a group of pets or a group of humans. We need to have bonuses designed specifically to enhance our ability to group effectively with pets and humans. NPC pets should be treated equally as realplayers when it comes to those bonuses.

Wow, there's some deep passions here, lets try to keep it to a minimum and not cross the borders of politeness.

There's obviously some deep issues and opinions on this topic, and I think the probem relates to the experience issue, how it's calculated and all.

Perhaps Squad Leader Experience should be based on the Difficulty Rating of people in the group as well as the number of people. The game already calculates that (evident in the difference in missions at lower and higher "levels"), and it calculates it for both pets and droids, so I don't see why the pet wielding classes can't group and gain Squad Leader Experience (if their Squad Leader abilities are affecting them), but perhaps at a reduced rate because the pet's Difficulty Rating is lower than a person's.

Although I personally don't like the concept of Squad Leader's soloing, technically with a pet or droid or whatever they're still in a "group", so they should get some, but perhaps the benefits can be greater for someone who chooses the more difficult path, grouping with other players (way more difficult when 1) they don't speak English well, 2) they're 13 and are 133t, 3) are stupid and don't pay attention or even know how to fight as a group).

Maybe if the Proffession and the game itself was designed and set up differently that it could be a player only Group proffession. Unfortunattly the way it is now the only real solution i see is adding some pets or some sort of SL only pet abilities. I have tried hard to think up ways without adding pets that this proffession could be made worth having instead of rilfeman/creature handler for example.

Any ofyou who think squad leaders shouldbe able toget wasted easily on there own are MMO n00bs and not even worth responding to. They need a equalizer. not one that makes them TOO powerfull but somthing to do with pets that will make them effective soloerswhen they have to be.

Man did I stir up the ant nest.

Anyhow, I think that the responses of some of the NPC naysayers out there may have misinterpreted what I was saying. It does not follow from what I said that all interplayer dependency should be removed from the game. Yes, some professions need other players to function (medics and entertainers). I do not disagree with this. Are you implying that SLs should be of the same nature as medics and utterly reliant on other players for advancement? If this is your opinion, so be it, but I don't see us that way.

Artisans are a class that are dependant on other players to be succesful. However, they can advance to master level without ever having interacting with another player. This is how I envision SLs. We should truly shine when leading a group of other players. However, to claim that this should be the only option available to SLs severely cripples the profession and limits the potential playing styles that can be incorporated into it. Why would we want to limit our potential?

Squad Leaders should lead squads. Whether this is a squad of NPC pets or a group of other players should be a decision left to the individual player. NPC squads could be incorporated into a player group. By having access to such squads, we have more to bring to a group, thus making it more appealing to group with us, and thereby increasing our opportunities to group. But we should not be forced to group. I take great issue anytime an MMO forces me to do anything. It detracts from the open-ended nature of the game.

I personally do not favor one style over the other. Sometimes I feel like grouping and interacting with other players, especially my friends and guildmates. It is in such situations that I really stand out and feel proud to be an SL. Other times I either can't get a group together or am fed up with moronic l3wt boiz and don't feel like grouping. On those occasions I should be able to go solo. Perhaps not at as an effective level of performance as when in a player group, but I should still have the option. I fail to see what is so unreasonable about that?

Your 100% correct PIB there is nothing wrong at all with your statement. I think alot of the naysayers has to do with people just breaking into MMO's because this is star wars and dont understand how they do or should work.

When i think of Squad leader and faction pets i think of old school shadow run (if any of you kids even know what i am talking about). the ability to higher mercs and soldiers should be a part of the Squad Leaders options.In no way should they be close to as powerfull as a CH's pet's but we should have some sort of special npc abilities. Why must we be forced to group to survive?

I cant solo anything close to what my RL friends have chosen as a combo of proffesions. My guild is not always around to group and they like to solo somtimes too. I certainly dont want to have to sit in the same spot at a fort and hunt with a chaotic group of 15+ people in close quartersfor hours on end. i enjoy running around doing missions with a group more then thatcrap.

I dont think we should be able to run around with 3 dark troopers that can never be killed while overt. that would be a lil too strong but adding some sort of NPC only abilities to existing pets that have guns (faction pets and probots) would be nice and reasonable. dirt cheap faction pets for SL would be nice, maybe 1 faction pet while covert too. there are alot of options that need to be explored for giving SL any kind of soloing equalizer that we deserve.

one thing i forgot to mention. Take paladin's in Daoc for example. theyare a group support class too andit took a long time but eventually they did add a couple solo abilities for them so they didnt get slaughtered while alone. You dont think at the moment that any will be added for SL but i think some day down the road they will give us somthing to solve that problem.

things are getting a bit too overheated, think people need to take a step back and take a deep breath.

From what ive read here, the general theme lying *behind* "why do we have to group/we should be able to get xp off leading NPCs" is the recurring lines ive read about 4 times in this thread... and that is

'terrain negotation is the only thing we're good at'

'defense against melee and attack modifiers is all we're good at'

I think most squad leaders here feel a bit unloved. As if the devs thought up this profession just to make the overall amount of professions number look higher to marketing people.

We need to examine what other classes get, how many of their skill tree boxes make them useful/needed, and how many are the same for us. (not looking at the completely broken classes, like BHers who will become worthwhile when player bounties are added)

-- Looking at things like the smuggler, whoose best traits are slicing and making good spices (neutron pixie) that'd be considered 2 things

-- People like Architects, who make furniture and structures, again, 2 very important things needed for the mass population

-- Obviously armorsmiths and weaponsmiths, but they have only 1 thing in their repetoire each, and thats what they do.

-- Creature Handlers can have humongous pets, and now sell smaller ones fully trained for players to use. again, 2 things.

-- Rangers? they are nearly forgotton as us. All they get are newer traps and bigger camps. the best ones only have2 things other players want. huge camps, and animal resources.

-- Doctors heal, being generous they heal 3 things, but its still only 1 overall ability other players like them for.

-- Droid Engineers, these guys are getting a bit better soon i hear, with the introduction of Droidekkas as serious fighting bots to sell (whats the point of a probot i ask then?) But still, they only posess1 thing other players want, bots.

So basically, the range for what makes other players like you as a profession averages 1.5

what do we, as Squad Leaders, actually offer other players? Well, a few things in a few abilities, adding to melee and ranged defence, adding speed, the ability to make a big notice come on screen to make sure your heard hehe, and the ability to better the teams aims and other attacking qualities.

BUT, these are just minor things really, and people dont know of it. we are basically just a stat modifier class for other people, but not enough that it is worth teaming with us for, or worth searching us out to lead a team

The REAL problem and resolution ISNT in getting NPCs to give us Leadership xp, its to give us something that gets the general population seeking us out to lead their team. Make us good in something that stands out and draws people to us, so we are always being badgered to be in a team, as much as a master tailor is badgered and bombarded by /tells asking for the best suits and clothes.

"I think alot of the naysayers has to do with people just breaking into MMO's because this is star wars and dont understand how they do or should work."

I'm a rabid naysayer, and while I never bothered with Shadowrun, I've been through3 MMORPGs in the past 5 years. I'm also pushing 30, so hardly a 'kid'. Nice to meet you.

My problem with every bit of the rest of your post, and PIB's is that your suggestions would manipulate the class to fit your idea of how a Squad Leader should function, instead of forcing you to adapt your play style to the profession you chose.

Here's a true statement: Squad Leader: A soldier whose very presence in a group provides benefits to all group members. (That's from the manual)

So when you read that, you think: 'It shouldn't matter if those group members are players or NPCs.' But I'll argue with you that this notion wasn't part of the original design document. I take it as implied that this pertains to player characters, just as I'd tend to believe this one does as well: Ranger: Adventurer well-suited to travel, tracking, and defending others in combat.

So, if we can take this as true and work under the assumption that the original design referred to player characters (which we have to do, since the game launched without Squad Leader pets), we can move on to your question: Why must we be forced to group to survive? I really think that based on the above true statement, you are forced to group because you chose a class that relies on grouping. Each class MUST be forced to sacrifice something in exchange for the benefits of that class. MUST. Otherwise, every class becomes so similar that there is no advantage to any of them.

For example, imagine the poor artisan that tries to hunt on his own with no weapon skills. Would you argue that he should be given some sort of special abilities that allow him to hunt on his own? You stated that your friends that chose Combat Professions were able to solo much harder creatures than you could, so obviously you'd agree that the poor Artisan should be able to solo harder creatures as well. But then, what if we give him a special Artisan Warrior NPC that helps him hunt? Then he's awfully similar to a Creature Handler. Or, what if we give him some special Artisan combat abilities? Then he's just like the Marksman professions. So then if the Artisan has useful combat skills, how come the Marksman can't craft anything decent? In this example, the person who chose to play the Artisan profession has also chosen to forfeit the ability to be a combat master, in favor of being able to craft exceptional items. Every profession needs to face this compromise in order for the game to work.

In the case of the Squad Leader, perhaps the compromise is that a person chooses to give up the ability to solo as effectively as a Creature Handler, but in return his "very presence in a group provides benefits to all group members". Now, maybe the last part of this isn't working very well right now. In fact, I agree that it is not, and that's why I post to this forum. But changing this profession from the original design so that it's more like another profession is not the answer. You're basically asking to have your cake and eat it too.

The Squad Leader needs help, and I'm confident that we're going to get it. But tacking on pets and calling it a solution is not the answer.

Stumpfrowe of Kettemoor

"Each class MUST be forced to sacrifice something in exchange for the benefits of that class. MUST. Otherwise, every class becomes so similar that there is no advantage to any of them .... In the case of the Squad Leader, perhaps the compromise is that a person chooses to give up the ability to solo as effectively as a Creature Handler, but in return his "very presence in a group provides benefits to all group members". Now, maybe the last part of this isn't working very well right now. In fact, I agree that it is not, and that's why I post to this forum. But changing this profession from the original design so that it's more like another profession is not the answer.You're basically asking to have your cake and eat it too."

I'm proud to have you as a server-mate. You've better explained what I've been trying to say in a few passages than I did in several posts.

Bravo!

/agree Renfrowe

very well said

We have to group just because thats what we do. A pistoleer is experienced with using pistols, his bonuses do not apply when using a rifle. A squad leader is experienced with coordinating groups of players in battle, his bonuses do not apply when not leading a group. It makes sense to me.