Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Why do we have to group?
Ok. I really try to stay away from being insulting on the forums, but...
...Man. You are *really* missing the point.
We, players, did not write this game to be how our ideal is. The devs of Star Wars Galaxies wrote this game. The purpose of professions is to add variety and customization to a user's character. NOT to make them happy. NOT to make them powerful. See, those are things we have to decide on our own. They rely on you, as a (hopefully) intelligent human being to pick a profession you will enjoy, and offer the option of surrendering skill points if you find you do NOT enjoy it. Most professions in most games are built along the lines of a general mindset for how a given person might like to play.
For example.
There are combat classes. Brawlers are for those players who would like to engage in melee combat. Ok, that's simple enough. Marksman are for those who want to use range. And so on. And to further vary the game, there are elite professions. Fencers are for Brawlers for want to use grace. Swordsman are for those who want to use force. And so on. You get the idea.
On the flip side, there are healing classes, social classes, and creating classes. All of these are there and perfectly open for you to choose from. Nothing prevents you from doing so. Nothing prevents you from being satisfied with what you chose except for the fact that the developers did not make the class for you. They made it for a general, stereotypical person that likes this particular style.
The Squad Leader class is a very specific profession, compared to some of the others. That, coupled with the fact that it's pretty damned broken makes it remarkably rare. It is made for the player that wants to group. Period. You'd have to be blind to miss that. Every other class is a personal thing. Artisans make stuff. But that doesn't mean they have to sell it to anyone else if they don't want to. When they do sell it, they make money. Most don't give it away to charity, I can tell you that much. No, SL's skills ALL focus on grouping. Grouping. Ie, not solo-ing.
What you want is a Pet Leader.The closest professions areknown as Creature Handlers or Droid Engineers. Pet Leader, however, would be different. Not only would you get new pets as you leveled up, but they would be getting combat bonuses. Like CHs, a Pet Leader would gain Pet Leader experience as his pets fought. He would be happy, because he could both get his own pets to solo with him AND give them bonuses.
In case you missed the sarcasm in the preceding paragraph, Pet Leaders will not, ever exist. It is unbalanced. It has already been taken care of by the CH profession. It has nothing to do with the base concept of Squad Leader... a class that is built upon grouping. I'm not saying the SL class shouldn't be fixed. It should. It needs help desperately. But this is an incredibly stupid idea, and I'm getting tired of hearing it. It denies the purpose of this class and assigns it an entirely new purpose with the *option* of using the true purpose. The devs can't assign specific classes to every single person who wants to play a certain way. They tried to nail as many as possible with their wide selection of classes and are even installing more in patches (ie, Politician). So, please. Stop trying to change the entire profession to suit your own style when the profession was built entirely on a playing style to begin with. Don't rip out the foundation because you don't like it.
It became the "dogma" that Squad Leaders had to group more than other professions around the time they started playing with ideas on the profession table. It's what we stand for, man. The heart and soul of the profession.
Your opinion, your view, your perception, is not incorrect. It is not the only correct one. Please try to see it as others see it. I once again state my stance that this class is BEST when grouped with people. It is not, nor should it be, forced to take that route. If you cannot see that...I'm sorry.
Krelian:
Your hostility is unnecessary, and tends to weaken your argument.
When your MMORPG launches be sure to post back here so we can all check out your class balance.
For the record, I am not proposing that the foundation of the Squad Leader profession be ripped from under it so that we supporters of NPC pets (heretics I think would be an accurate label based on the response to this thread) can rebuildit in our own vision. That is not what I want in the least.
To tell the truth, with the reduction in faction perk costs (I can now get a stormtrooper for 420 fps = under an hour of playing), this is somewhat of a moot point. For those of us who prefer artificial intelligence to semi-intelligent greifers and adolescents (status as an adolescent IMO is not based on one's age, BTW), we can go on soloing with our happy little squads of obedient servants.
Anyhow, I never once stated that I disliked the concept of the Squad Leader as a group-intensive profession. I merely asked why should we be denied the ability to earn xp on our own. This is not a situation of mutually exclusive concepts. If Squad Leaders had their own pets, that would not preclude them from grouping with players, in fact it would probably make us more appealing to a group.
I'm happy as the game stands right now (leaving the issue of our near-empty skill tree aside). Those who wish to only group with players can do so, while those who wish to build their personal squad of NPC pets can do so. I will fight vehemently against any attempt to change this, since doing so would reduce the realm of playing possibilities for our profession and make it even more broken.
I think the fundamental division is in the interpretation of "group". To me, and it seems a few others, this signifies any group whether composed solely of NPCs, composed solely of PCs,or composed of a mix of each. It seems to others that"group" indicates only those groups that include PCs. As should be obvious, the latter view is the narrower. IMO, subscribing tothe narrower view will ultimately harm our profession by infringing on certain players' chosen playing styles, thereby reducing their enjoyment of the game.
Another point that I forgot.
I think what I would prefer to see is, instead of giving us our own pets or increasing our access to pets, reducing other classes' access to them. I won't go into this here, since it really belongs on a new thread, but it really makes me feel less unique when every other profession in the game can save up FPs and be a leader of a squad just as easily as I can. I mean, I'm the Squad Leader, right? And yeah, yeah, I know, my true squad is the group of dedicated and disciplined players just waiting for me to come along and lead them to glory. But I'm still bothered. Bounty Hunters just shouldn't be leading a squad of soldiers, dammit, that's my job.
PIB-
Your post was objective and stated your point well. Based on that, I'm content to agree to disagree.
The only thing that I would argue with is your closing line:
"IMO, subscribing tothe narrower view will ultimately harm our profession by infringing on certain players' chosen playing styles, thereby reducing their enjoyment of the game."
My point here is that the restrictions of a class are supposed to infringe upon a person's chosen playing style. What I mean is that the class/profession should force restrictions on what a player can and cannot do. For instance, perhaps there's a Marksman who really, really wants to be a ballerina. The limitations of the Marksman profession restrict him from doing a good job of prancing around in tights, but I think you'd agree that this is a good thing. (now of course I understand that it's possible for him to be a Marksman and a dancer, but by the same token it's possible to be a Squad Leader and a Creature Handler...)
So this means that the Marksman must adjust his style of play to fit his chosen profession, and not the other way around where the profession is adjusted to fit his style of play.
That's all I had to say.
I agree wholeheartedly LordPib, there is absolutely NOTHING in this manual that would lead me to believe that the Squad Leader was only supposed to leadhumans instead of NPCs(which are smarter than humans anyways.)
I don't see why we can't empower the Squad Leader by giving benefits that help BOTH styles of play.
"So this means that the Marksman must adjust his style of play to fit his chosen profession, and not the other way around where the profession is adjusted to fit his style of play."
The problem with this argument is that you assume the Squad Leader was meant only to lead humans. Again, there is nothing I have seen in the manual that would lead me to conclude this.
My answer to that is simple, and since I enjoy the sport of debate when it's based on logical arguments and kept free of hostility and ambiguous remarks, I'll share it:
The skill tree for Squad Leader during beta and at launch had no indications of NPC summoning or handling abilities. Based on that fact, a reasonable person would conclude that the purpose of the profession was not to lead a group of NPC soldiers. So, if a reasonable person chose the profession with the knowledge that no NPC's were available, then the person accepts a playing style whereby he benefits from grouping with other players, and they benefit from him. (again, i concede that this is not working properly at present.)
To give another example, a resonable person who chose the Entertainer profession at launch should have no expectation of being able to build houses, since the skill trees for his chosen profession had no indication of such abilities.
Thanks for keeping this thread level-headed and logical. It's so much more fun making arguments this way.
Is this a real question? If you have to ask this, then you shouldn't be a sl. This is quite possibly the stupidest question i have ever seen in a message board.
balt
You see, that's the kind of remark that only hurts our argument.
We've got a perfectly legitimate debate going on here, and then someone comes along and offers up their '2 credits' worth of insight which contains no basis in fact and no supporting arguments other than 'you don't know what you're talking about'.
Calm down, think about the point you're trying to make, and formulate a few logical remarks. You'll find your comments will stand a better chance of being taken seriously.
Now, please disregard the previous post and let's resume the debate. 
I have read every post on this thread, and never have i seen so much time wasted so badly. It is my opinion, as a consumer, that i should have the option to lead a squad of Stormtroopers, rebels, turtles, I don't care, don't force me to bend to your mistakes. Bonuses, Xp, jellybeans, you can keep them for all I care, let me me run a squad of NPC's just to be doing something, and don't range my opinion as being an experience hunter.
I could care less about XP and bonuses if i'm doing what i love to do. All I see are a bunch of closet runners, wanting to be somebody, and destroying the gaming experience even more than the devs with constant unrequested patches. You don't want an NPC squad leader to get XP, ok, i'm fine with that, you don't want an NPC squad leader to be able to use SL bonuses, ok, i'm fine with that. If that's what I have to give up in order not to be running behind you smelling your sweaty a$$ crack, then that's what i'll give up, no problem, but don't tell me, seeing as how I paid 90 damm dollars for this game, and am currently spending 50 every 3 months to live MY Star Wars fantasy, that I have to live with your bullsh!t, because I don't.
What you want to do is fine, i have absolutely no bussiness telling you how to play out your fantasy role, and on the same token, you can shove whatever you have to say about mine. I want NPC back-up as an option, and when i want to grow more, then i'll just have to deal with the likes of you, but fighting to be SL all the time is NOT what i'm paying for, and in my opinion there's enough damm people in the real world with the power to make others do as they wish, don't bring that crud into my fantasy world, you can roll it up, and i'll give you a good idea where you can put it!
Now i know half of the ppl on this thread are just voicing a complaint. This post isn't really meant for them. This post is meant for the ppl that complain and complain. I can't see how they keep playing. I can't remember the last thing that i complained about so much that i still enjoyed it. Once again i am going to say, this post is not for everyone here. I understand there are people who are just posting this to voice a concern, please ignore this if that is you. Now read on with that in mind.
Ren i got to tell you, i completely agree with your first post, but what i don't understand which led me to make my past remark, is what in the world they want to be a sl for. They can lead their "NPC pets" with any other profession and probably accomplish more than they would with sl by adding their benefits fromanother class i.e. a melee or creature handler.
I am a hardcore roleplayer, and i can't imagine why anyone would want to solo with a squad leader. To me that is like saying you want to be a creature handler with no pet, or a weaponsmith and make no weapons. It seems like an oxymoron.
Plus, i have met so many people bent on being omnipotent, and i wonder why they are playing this game. Then i read here and wonder why in the world they are playing a class that is broken. I agree that some changes need to be done, but crap let's make the class more useful than make exp gathering easier.
I personally have no problem gathering exp. I was out yesterday with a group of 15 ppl killing mountain squills and anything that moved and made a WHOLE BUBBLE in my skill tree. I am getting 2500 points every kill. Am i doing something wrong? Is this a bug? I have no clue, but i am really having no problems getting exp. The only ppl that seem to have the problem are the people who solo. Does anyone see a pattern here?
Another point, I personally do think the squad leader is an elite class. The Squad leader should be the person that takes control. Yes, you don't need a sl to control the group, but if you are an sl, you should. You should know what you are doing, know what your capabilities are, learn the capabilities of others, and set them to the best of their abilities. (Have you ever seen a 13 year old do this?) That is what i do, and i have yet to have someone leave my group because i am not doing a good job, or they arelacking in fun.
My main complaint is this. This is aMMORG. Correct me if i amwrong, but the word Roleplaying is in that. I find that when i am roleplaying i like to get into my character and what he is. When i play Star Wars, i like to play my character as though he is real. It is a break from the real world, and heck, it is fun. But i have never heard of a soloing squad leader...ever. If anyone has an example that i can hear of i will be glad to post agian and say that i am wrong. When i am in this game, i am in it to escape reality and be something i couldn't normally be.
Maybe i take this crap too seriously.I will admit to that, but what it comes down to is are you having fun or not. If you aren't, please try another class. If you are and are voicing a concern, it is nice to have you. Nice to have people who are as concerned for the class as i am.
If anyone wants to refute me or reach me, my name in game is Balthamel and i play on Scylla.
Good hunting,
Balt
Look, all I am saying is that it isn't my style but I can completely imagine someone wanting to play SL and not lead a group of PCs. When I started this game, in Beta, my goal was to lead a squad of stormtroopers as a SL. Thought that would be cool. I still think that option should be open. That will by no means be as efficient a group as one that contains PCs, but it can be and is a viable option for people. I am sorry you cannot imagine something different than your favorite method of play. Talk about Bards in other games all you want, no other game has as HUGE an impact from pets as this one.
I will state this again, to make sure my stance is well understood. There are many viable options for playing SL. There should not be only one. Grouping with PCs is the most powerful, efficient, (IMO Fun) way to do it. But it isn't the only option that should be out there. I wouldn't care if every PC in the game took squad leader. I would still be a leader on my own merits, sought after more than the others because of my natural abilities, and hopefully for my class abilities if they can fix it. SL shouldn't become a specialty NPC pet controller. It should be able to function with this option, however.
Last night I got in a group with a Master Dancer, well known on my server. She is now a sharpshooter. She was tired of what an entertainer has to go through. If you want to know what a completely PC dependant class feels like just ask one of the entertainers who no longer entertains how much they enjoyed it. If there was a way (now with ent missions there is) for them to gain xp and cash without humans they would jump at it. Why now do you want us to become the combat equivalent of the entertainer?