Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Why do we have to group?
When did it become dogma that SLs have to group more than other professions? Granted we give groups bonuses (hypothetically), but what's wrong with an SL who wants to solo by having a group of NPCs? Should a player who prefers to solo and wants to be an SL be told that he is out of luck? I think the availability of a group is too unreliable a variable upon which to make SL xp dependent. I think any push to make SL xp earnable only when leading a group composed of PCs will seriously hinder this profession and make it even more unpalatable.
I think the fear is that we will end up with SLs who never want to group b/c they can earn xp just as easily by going their own with their droids/creatures/NPCs, and thus player groups will not benefit from our abilities as was intended. I don't think this fear would ever pan out, however. For the most part, it is true that people who want to group are drawn to this profession. I don't think that broadening this profession's appeal to those who prefer to solo will change that. Also, many game situations necessitate a group of players, and continuing to allow SLs to solo will not change this either.
My point is, SLs should not be furthered hampered by requiring them to be leading a group of players to earn xp. I even think we should get access to a squad of NPCs that can be incorporated into and aid a player group, or be used to solo.
What does everyone else think? Have I overlooked some dire consequences of my opinion?
I agree with you. I think its pretty naive to have this rosy colored picture of the squad leader as some sort of expert group-exclusive support class.
I've said it before and I'll say it again until I'm blue in the face: I don't care if I'm leading a group of NPCs or people (NPCs are smarter than most people I've met), I am still the leader, and I am leading a squad. Therefore, I deserve all the benefits of squad leader without penalty.
That said, I think there's basically 2 schools of thought when it comes to squad leaders. You have the "antisocial NPC oriented Squad Leader" and then you have the other extreme, "completely people group dependent Squad leader." I'm aligned with the former, most of the people on this forum are wearing their rose colored sunglasses and lean towards the latter.
So here is another suggestion to add AI companions to the Squad Leader class in order to make up for the deficiencies of the class. For the sake of the game, I'm going to oppose this until it's a distant memory.
By your logic, we should be able to lead AI companions (I'll refrain from calling them 'pets' although that's basically what you're talking about) instead of being a class that supports other players. Then, following the same logic, the Doctor should be able to summon an NPC Patient that he can heal when he gets tired of relying on other players for med exp. Or the Weaponcrafter or Architect should be able to summon their own team of NPC Customers to buy their wares when they are having trouble finding buyers in the player community. I could go on, but you should be able to follow my point.
Adding AI Companions is a cop-out, and it's not the long term solution to any of the game's current issues, including the deficiencies of the Squad Leader class. My advice is to grit your teeth and stick with it until a real solution is implemented, or surrender your skills and start up the Creature Handler tree.
Stumpfrowe of Kettemoor.
no no no no no.
The reason why the bonuses are there is because of the group. With a propper leader, a team can coordinate propperly and have more confidence. Tehy can cover each others backs much easier than alone. That's why the bonuses shouldn't apear when you're solo, no one is covering your back.
Why is it unrealistically optimistic to describe squad leader as a group-dependent profession?
SWG is thick with professions that simply could not function without other players. Medics, weaponsmiths and armorsmiths, for example, all depend on PCs and could never level without people to heal and customers to buy their goods.
Under your line of reasoning, medics should start clamoring for mission terminals in the med centers where they could order up a platoon of injured NPCs to heal, and smiths should start petitioning for an an NPC "buyer" to take goods off their hands without having to bother with market demand.
If I didn't think it would hurt the game, I wouldn't begrudge you your npc squad. I could lead PCs and you could lead NPCs and we'd both be happy.
But as it is, squad leader is one of the few professions that isn't going to attract the script kiddies and others who are just in the game for the power they can wield. Turn it into a stormtrooper/rebel squad handler and all that will change in a heartbeat. No longer will the squad leader tag signify a reliable teammate who knows the score out there.
So here's my question for you. Why would you choose such an obviously social profession if you don't want to or can't group? Why wouldn't you pick bounty hunter or creature handler or something? Not every profession is suitable for every person in real life, why must it be in SWG?
"Why is it unrealistically optimistic to describe squad leader as a group-dependent profession?"
Thats not what I said, I said PEOPLE GROUP DEPENDENT.
"SWG is thick with professions that simply could not function without other players. Medics, weaponsmiths and armorsmiths, for example, all depend on PCs and could never level without people to heal and customers to buy their goods."
Not true, by practicing making goods the Artisan earns XP without *ever* having to sell a single item. I know because I've done it.
"Under your line of reasoning, medics should start clamoring for mission terminals in the med centers where they could order up a platoon of injured NPCs to heal, and smiths should start petitioning for an an NPC "buyer" to take goods off their hands without having to bother with market demand."
Medics can and should be able to heal NPCs. As I mentioned earlier the weaponsmith would never have to sell a single weapon if he didn't want to.
"But as it is, squad leader is one of the few professions that isn't going to attract the script kiddies and others who are just in the game for the power they can wield. Turn it into a stormtrooper/rebel squad handler and all that will change in a heartbeat. No longer will the squad leader tag signify a reliable teammate who knows the score out there."
So we should deliberately keep this profession underpowered to scare off the dreaded "script kiddies?" I would much rather have a working, useful, and powerful profession that had a few kids doing it than what is essentially a flashy titleto satisfy some people's desire of being one in a handful in a given profession.
"So here's my question for you. Why would you choose such an obviously social profession if you don't want to or can't group? Why wouldn't you pick bounty hunter or creature handler or something? Not every profession is suitable for every person in real life, why must it be in SWG?"
This is not an obviously social profession: Squad Leaders get XP without ever having to group with a real life person if they never wanted to and thats the way it should be, that option should always remain open. I didn't pick bounty hunter because it cost too many skill points. I am a Novice Creature Handler to help out with my SL xp.
"If I didn't think it would hurt the game, I wouldn't begrudge you your npc squad. I could lead PCs and you could lead NPCs and we'd both be happy."
Both options should be viable, I am taking issue with the people who want to turn this profession into purely a "people group dependent" class that is broken and worthless.
Well now that droids can permadie along with faction pets SL have just become the most gimped fighting class in the entire game. we could get CH but then that would take away from our weapon. being a rifleman/squad leader is the hardest combo of fighting prof's to try and solo with espessially without the Master Marksman bonus.Not only that but SL/CH's cant use there abilties anyways.
I have been trying to come up with what would be fair. i would say scrap terian negotiation altogether and let us have one pet per skill box and each pet would have a rank such a pvt. cpl. sgt. and lt. or allow faction pets to not be permakilled when owned by SL's.
LordPIB, you need to come to the same conclusion I did. You are arguing with martyrs. They are the ones who see SL as a selfless support profession.
This game is set up to be solo or social. SL has the same ability to be a solo profession. The Nifty title is meaningless when talking about a persons ability to lead. My groupmates would still make me the leader if I put my VALUABLE skill points into a different profession. If there were no skill point maximum then having SL be an underpowered profession wouldn't be such a big deal. But since I am spending 72 of my 250 points on this class alone I am not unreasonable to demand better benefits.
Yes, I am meandering and answering several different questions at once. The bottom line is we shouldn't have to group with humans if we don't want to. If you want good SL xp you will. If you are worried about l337 players taking the SL profession if it had more power...people will stop grouping with you if you are not a good leader and you will never make master, at least not by the time they release the space expansion in 2007.
I completely agree with you SetSwipe that the most effective group with a SL would be humans working in tandem. But I don't believe you have to be in the most effective group all the time. Some players aren't good leaders, but if they want SL to give em bonuses more power to em. If a CH wants some bonuses to keep his pets from getting hit in combat so much, more power to em. It isn't my playing style, but it is a valid playing style. For the last few months we have been getting a constant stream of martyr style SL's who think their playing style is the only true one and that some silly profession should remain silly so they can feel better about being in an elite inner circle of "Squad Leaders."
I'll admit that some of the bonuses are okay. But I have tested out /retreat, /rally, /formup and the rest. The abilities Stink! My group asks me NOT to do /retreat. rally fails too much. formup doesn't work on pets, and they are the brunt of the mobs attacks.
I have developed a wonderful system for taking out vesp lair, baz nitch lair, and basically any other lair of creatures that agro and baf. we hardly ever die (even the best laid plans can go awry from time to time.) This has absolutely nothing to do with me being a squad leader. I prefer grouping with people. Not only do I enjoy the human contact, but they are ultimately more powerful. I do not, however, maintain any illusions that this should be or is the only valid playstyle.
So, while I agree that human groups are much more efficient, I disagree that SL should be designed only for them.
yes, I agree with the pet thing, which is why I sudgested that pets only count for xp if the SL is actually befriended (to be able to give orders) or even better only if he actually orders the pets. The latter is highly unlikely as too many new variables would have to be added. This stems from my thought of regardless of being a pet or not, the SL is still able to lead and communicate with the party member.
But the reverse shoudl be true. Only pets able to obey the SL should recieve the benefits.