Squad Leader Archive
Thread: FEEDBACK: The Group Leader Issue
LiakyK
Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:03 am
#183
That looks alike like my template lol... except I have only 3/0/0/4 Scout and 0/0/4/0 carbine. I have fought as a Riflemen/Sl for so long... lol.
Sylow
Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:10 am
#184
Outside of SWG, I have (and will again) play other RPGs. I learned that I couldn't enforce my view of how a given class (or profession, in SWG terms) should be played. I could voice opinion, but in the end, its up to some other player- just like you all - to play his/her character. All I can suggest, is that each of you continue to play your SL character as you see fit.
Did you consider that SL buffbots might disallow us to play the profession the way we like to? It seems like buffbots never go out of fashion, if there is a way, people will use it. On my server lately a buffbot is regularily sitting in a starport and offering the doctor buffs and wound healing. While this is some annoying spam, i dare to say that it affects the "regular" doctors not so much, they still are needed in teams for massive healing.
On the other hand, if a bot is able to supply the buffing-needs of the group, there will be no SL necessary any more. After all, that's what the profession is essentially converted to, anyways: groupbuffers.No other mechanic presented here seems to have a fraction of meaning of the new buffs. So don't try pointing at those, it would just be a way too obvious alibi-move.
So as a result, before CU you rarely saw an ATK doctor, almost all doctors were just some kind of bot. The problem was corrected in CU and i very much wish that we won't now have the SL to crash into the same mess. Anyways, avoiding this pitfall is rather easy, remove buffs when leaving the group, remove the buffs when getting a BountyHunter-TEF and remove the buffs when moving out of range of the SL. (Or, if one or another is too hard to implement, give the buffs a duration of less than 5 minutes and make sure that they are only applied to people within 100 meters around the SL. This way, the buffbot is effectively killed again and the profession will still require an active playstile.)
Does it involve me needed to get a pitchfork and torches?
Yay! Finally we manage to return to the fun parts! 
Edit: I just read what you wrote about your planed template. I really don't get it why we should burn you for that, i see NO issue there at all. The way you describe both the selected skills and how you plan to use them is perfectly valid in my eyes and i think that the other SLs around here would not complain about it, either.
Which makes me wonder, is it really that hard to understand our concerns?
They really read like this:
- buffbots can easily be implemented under the current system, making the ATK Squad Leader unnecessary (or even unwanted with the 8 man team limit.)
- halfway coordinated dabbling can be used to give a group an extremely overpowering advantage on the battlefield
- a combination of the above two can even lead to a group of non-SLs having all SL buffs active. (Sounds weird? I admit, this won't happen often, only the biggest guilds go for the effort of having several active buffbots. I know several guilds who had 3 active buffbots (one doc, one dancer, one musician) before CU came, i doubt that they will take the effort to set up 8 of them, though. So i would say, this is a theoretical threat, but you shouldn't be surprised if you would find a guild with buffbots supplying the 3 most powerful buffs.
- the current system allows disruptive behaviour of people in team, allows SLs to give contradicting orders and in effect might discourage coordinated operations. As a result of this, it is likely to give the SL profession a bad reputation.
The last one was dismissed as "no real issue" by Keldarin and while i see it as an issue, i admit that it can be fixed somewhat by only grouping with people you know and trust. Of course, this will lead to closed circles, getting into the game will be harder for newcommers. But if the Devs insist on that, i assume it can be handled.
The first three though are issues of playability and balance and thus require some attention.
Message Edited by Sylow on 09-09-2005 05:23 PM
BadChef
Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:22 am
#185
Ahhh, no lynchin? Might as well go to work then. You guys are no fun.
Sylow
Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:24 am
#186
BadChef wrote:
Ahhh, no lynchin? Might as well go to work then. You guys are no fun.
In case of need, you can always /poke Darth_Sushi, of course.
BadChef
Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:27 am
#188
Na thanks, sometimes I get outa hand and might poke him the wrong way. Would just be awkward after that.
LiakyK
Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:31 am
#189
BadChef wrote:
Na thanks, sometimes I get outa hand and might poke him the wrong way. Would just be awkward after that.
Poke the devs that way... I DARE YOU!!
Loki_Ashaman
Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:33 am
#190
Only if he takes SL out of his sig first
LiakyK wrote:
BadChef wrote:
Na thanks, sometimes I get outa hand and might poke him the wrong way. Would just be awkward after that.
Poke the devs that way... I DARE YOU!!
HzGuderian
Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:34 am
#191
Loki_Ashaman wrote:
Only if he takes SL out of his sig first
LiakyK wrote:
BadChef wrote:
Na thanks, sometimes I get outa hand and might poke him the wrong way. Would just be awkward after that.
Poke the devs that way... I DARE YOU!!
Hey, if it gets the dev excited, we want to make sure they know where its comin from. :-P
BlueGlowy
Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:35 am
#192
Sylow wrote:
Did you consider that SL buffbots might disallow us to play the profession the way we like to?
No, I thought of it, but didn't really put much weight into it, though probably should have. In all honesty, I suppose my post regarding that was more of a weak and transparent attempt to mend fences.I really do understand what it's like to see 'your' profession get played in such a way, one that it dilutes your own enjoyment of playing the role you want to play, orweakens/removes the primary purpose of your profession.
To try to think positively about it, SL isn't the first SWG profession that faced these challenges. Often, you can find solutions by looking to see how/what was done in the past to resolve a given issue. Such potential solutions are sometimes advantageous, in that since similar solutions were previously implemented elsewhere, it's more likely that dev time/resources will be applied to provide such solutions.
Sylow wrote:
Edit: I just read what you wrote about your planed template. I really don't get it why we should burn you for that, ..
It had to do with my opinions re: a group leadership focus for the Squad Leader profession. I did receive criticism about wanting to be an SL, but really very much not wanting to have to be a GL to get the full suite of the advantages of the profession. If anything, I'm better at taking orders than I am at giving them, at least within the confines of a tactical situation. And my planned SL-based character really has nothing to do with Leadership.
Aside from the GL aspect of things, I don't think I've lobbied much either way for or against lowering buff durations, or applying a decreasing scale of buff-stacking effectiveness when more than one SL is in a group. For the most part, unless you're asking for outright removal of the ability to apply a given buff/special when an SL isn't a GL, I'm pretty much on the fence about that topic. I suppose, for my part, I only want to ensure that I can use all of the skills in the new SL profession for my own character, and on those occasions when I'm not playing the snakerecon/sniperdeep inside enemy lines, I can be just join a group and benefit it (with buffs, target selection, etc.). In a way, that would give me two entirely different characters for the price of one.
Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-09-200511:59 AM
Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-09-2005 11:59 AM
HzGuderian
Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:39 am
#193
Once the flavor passes, buffbots won't be so common except in circles where they just want to solo and be a leet dude anyway, whom you wouldn't want to have in your group. I'm not as concerned about that. Mostly worried, as I stated before, about what our profession is left with once the next profession revamp comes out and the newcomers leave for that profession.
LiakyK
Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:41 am
#194
HzGuderian wrote:
Once the flavor passes, buffbots won't be so common except in circles where they just want to solo and be a leet dude anyway, whom you wouldn't want to have in your group. I'm not as concerned about that. Mostly worried, as I stated before, about what our profession is left with once the next profession revamp comes out and the newcomers leave for that profession.
The bad news is, their are alot of people out there like that. I have heard alot of people complain they cant solo since the CU, and I really wouldnt want to give them that chance.If we can kill the Buffbot deal before this goes live, and the Jedi/BH thing, it will be a nice way to avoid nerfs in the future.
HzGuderian
Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:46 am
#195
Well the Jedi/BH thing has to be addressed for sure, which the obvious solutions would eliminate the buffbots at the same time. Again, here is to hoping the devs are still looking at this thread and will address the issue.