Smuggler Archive

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JamesHighwest wrote:

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Smuggler_Caylin wrote:

I never saw Transporter... I guess I should. I keep hearing it mentioned on these forums.

As Prereqs go...

*snipped out stuff to keep this compact*

Marksman

Artisan

Brawler

At any rate, that's just how I see many of the options out there. In a strictly smuggler sense... I love our prereqs and I find them very fitting for our profession.

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I had an idea a while back for Smuggler pre-req's and I guess now would be a good time to bring it up again.

My idea/vision/whatever is that the Smuggler profession have semi-variable prerequisites. My idea allows us to specialize the kind of Smuggler we become with the revamp. In it the Pistols line is the only one that is required and the player must take at least one other line of skills.

Marksman: Pistols should remain a pre-req. The pistol is a staple of the Smuggler in the Star Wars universe.

Artisan:
Business: Taking this line should give bonus' to any skills offered by the Underworld tree.
Engineering: Can offer bonuses to slicing done for "mini-games/missions". (NOT to slicing weapons/armor)
Domestic Arts: Spices, of course.

Brawler: Unarmed Fighting could allow bonuses to the potential Unarmed Dirty Fighting moves we have been asking for.

This is a very open ended layout of my idea. So, what do you guys think?

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Well I would just say..a pre-req should be an absolute requirement for base skills in a profession. There shuold be no choice about it. This game is full of choices.

A smuggler by nature (being basically a criminal) would learn to defend himself in the most covert methos possible (pistol and unarmed)

Their crafting line consists of contraband and tools they need to do illegal acts.

Being an underworld profession noting in Artisan fits as a pre-req. Sure you can argue that business skills are required. But not as they are defined in Artisan, the Artisan business line is all about being able to open up a public business. Now because of mechanics and the fact that vendors are not part of the crackdown means smugglers can in fact sell things on a vendor, but that is a game mechanic and it is cool because we can make money doing that. But if you look at the role of a smuggler it's the last thing they would do. If you were a smuggler in RL and smuggled pot into the United States would you open up a store "Joints R Us". I think not, you get it in.. locate a buyer covertly and then sell it. So making it a pre-req even an optional pre-req IMO. Doing that takes away from wat a smuggler is. but this game is about choices and anyone can augment their character however they want. I could but will not bother aboy the Domestic Arts and Engineering lines lol.

Artisan is a basic profession designed to teach the basic skills for elite crafting. If you notice none of the hybrid crafting professions require artisan lines. There is a reason for that.

I hate for this to sound like a flame, that is not the intent. But this just seems like anattempt for those that want a different option but still get the "tripple threat" that is supposed to be limited.

Perhaps before you justify a different pre-reqyou should also justify why the current ones dont apply.

Message Edited by Scoooter on 07-01-2004 02:08 PM

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Scoooter wrote:

Perhaps before you justify a different pre-reqyou should also justify why the current ones dont apply.

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Well, that's fair enough. As it stands, the current pre-req's are Pistols and Unarmed. Once you get those two it's all pistols from there. Most smugglers NEVER used Unarmed again! It is quite useless.

In your post you say that Artisan doesn't fit as a pre-req for Smuggler. Well, I think it does. Business can represent the "legitimate" business the smuggler runs as a front for selling illegal goods(underworld vendor idea). Engineering can represent learning the skills to build the right tools for the job(slicing). And Domestic Arts can represent the skills learned in mixing the right ingredients together to get the result you want(spices).

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JTGAlpha wrote:

Yeah. I can do that too. But that leaves me with room for....uhhhhh oh yeah. Not much. 2 lines in something else. As a combat smuggler you get two elite combat professions. As a crafting smuggler you can master one and change. Maybe 3/4's if you're lucky. If you wanna mix the two, you can master one and get half of the other, or you can not master either and get 3/4's of both. But you can't master an elite combat and an elite crafter. So why does combat smugglers get the edge? Why can't hybrids (cause we are) get that edge? Or crafters? Why do just combat smugglers deserver that edge to work on things outside of the profession. Because the problem with the pre-reqs isn't just as pre-reqs but what paths they force you into later. There are a LOT of triple threat smugglers out there. Why? Because it's efficient and it's powerful and it's convenient. There are NOT a lot of Merchant Smugglers out there. Why? Because you can't be a crafting smuggler, and be good at it. God forbid! You can't be good at both, one elite from each, God Forbid! (though if you ask me, that's the most accurate representation of a smuggler you'll ever get). But let's make sure that every smuggler can be a KungFu Master (TKA Master) Gunslinger. Cuz everyone knows Chow Yun Fat's got nothing on Han Solo, because that's what the pre-reqs lead us to. Which I have no problem with that except that it blocks me and others from being good at what WE want to be good at, something that IS a part of our profession.

Again, I always thought we were a crafting, combat hybrid. But our pre-reqs make us a melee/ranged hybrid with a dash of crafting thrown in.

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Welcome to the world of hybrid professions and choices.

I was a Master doc/Master pistoleer for 10 months. That is worse. If doctors want to master ONE combat class they sacrifice a vendor and survey. At least you can vend and have master smuggler and a master combat profession. My point being that there are hybrid profession in a lot worse shape than we are skill point wise and there is no love from the dev's there.

The crafting requirements are so small for smuggler compared to the other hybrid crafters. I think the devs only pplaced a crafting line in there in the first place just to get spice in the game as another poster said. Since slicing and spice are illegal they made the slicing tools and spice craftable by smugglers since we are the ones working outside the bounds of the law. Leaving the Artisan based professions on the up and up as far as the law and the Empire are concerned.

Basically if you want to open a "Spices R Us Franchise" and still have more combat you have to make choices. You could make a friend with someone with a vendor and have them sell it.

One option is to sell the spice to a merchant at like 15% off so you all get a profit. (and you dont have to deal with vendor BS). Or if you trust the person have them sell it and tip you the money for each sale (less some for merchant services)

Thats what I did for a long time as a doctor.

This is an MMO and it is designed that you cannot do everything.

Or the other option is to play the "crafting smuggler" and not have as good of a combat template.

The pre-req's define the profession as a whole, not the profession plus what you want to add. The current pre-req's make sense when you look at the smuggler profession by itself in that context.

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JTGAlpha wrote:

Like I said, these pre-reqs are NOT just about the Smuggler profession. They are ALSO about the professions that compliment Smuggler. And ONE elite crafting profession, vs. TWO elite combat professions is disparate, and I can find more examples in continuity of one than the other.

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You could not be more wrong.

Pre-req's are the MINIMUM required skills for a profession. Not a profession and how to comliment it.

Is survey a pre-req for architect? No, because although finding resource is helpful it is not required they do it.

Is survey a pre-req for weapon smith? No, because although finding resource is helpful it is not required they do it.

Is survey a pre-req for armor smith? No, because although finding resource is helpful it is not required they do it.

Is survey a pre-req for tailor? No, because although finding resource is helpful it is not required they do it.

Is survey a pre-req for Droid Engineer? No, because although finding resource is helpful it is not required they do it.

Is survey a pre-req for Doctor? No, because although finding resource is helpful it is not required they do it.

Is survey a pre-req for BE? No, because although finding resource is helpful it is not required they do it.

Is survey a pre-req for CM? No, because although finding resource is helpful it is not required they do it.

IsMaster artisana pre-req for weapon smith? No, because even though they require master artisan components they can purchase them

IsMaster artisana pre-req for weapon smith? No, because even though they require master artisan components they can purchase them

And if I wanted to make this post 20 pages long I could but I will just stop there.

Just look at all the professions. The pre-req's are all about that profession, NOT how to compliment them

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Smuggler_Caylin wrote:

I never saw Transporter... I guess I should. I keep hearing it mentioned on these forums.

As Prereqs go...

Marksman

• Pistols - Small, easily concealed, ranged weaponry. Allows for sneak attacks, hold-out blasters and more. Sounds like a smuggler.


• Rifle - This don't fit, but hey, others want it. They are large, bulky and hard to hide in a cantina situation or when visiting your local Crime Lord.


• Carbine - See rifle, though to a lesser degree.


• Ranged - Not a bad option to represent combat experience, but it's a bit late now to change it to that. Too many builds focus on pistols and smugglers. Also realise that you would have NO WEAPON CERTS TO SPEAK OF!

Artisan

• Engineering - The tinkering ability... well lets go into this a bit. Not all smugglers were a mechanical genius. Solo knew enough to get by, but I have a feeling most smugglers didn't know a hydrospanner from a wookie. You will easily find ace pilots/smugglers who probably know jack about what they drive. All they care about is if it works or not. This prereq is not exactly representative of many smugglers.


• Business - Smugglers, moved goods from one location to another. Normally not on their own free will, but under the direction of some kind of crime boss. They didn't have to do much in the way of business. You can make a deal, without having one ounce of business sense. Not a great prereq, as I see it.

Brawler

• Unarmed - In many shady business situations, you will find yourself without a weapon. You do not go in defenseless unless you are an idiot, so knowing basic unarmed combat is a must. You should be able to rely on yourself to get out of tight situations, with or without a weapon. This screams smuggler.


• One Handed - Requires a weapon... can't just walk up to some crime lords with a rapier.


• Two Handed - Requires a weapon... can't just walk up to some crime lords with a Claymore.


• Pike - Requires a weapon... can't just walk up to some crime lords with a Pike.

At any rate, that's just how I see many of the options out there. In a strictly smuggler sense... I love our prereqs and I find them very fitting for our profession.

Message Edited by Smuggler_Caylin on 06-30-2004 10:49 AM

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I think the way it is now is good. We just need to add some mods to the pistol tree for def purposes. Unarmed is useful since I'm a TKM and pistols are good becuase it leaves u enought skill points to master smuggler and pistoleer. I like have 3 professions working together even though the two pistol ones are broken. TKM is a great PVE profession and offers alot to PVP add that to pistoleer and smugglers Low Blow So I don't have the chase the rebs too far. Its a pretty good profession. If I have to all the sudden get artisan Sorry Smugglers gone. I hate crafting but smugglers crafting is not too bad. Easy to do and factories do the work. I don't want to have a large scale crafting profession so i can become a chef. Make our skills better not our skill points get screwed up.

Maloso

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JTGAlpha wrote:

How can you say prelims don't effect complimentary professions? That's simply not true. We have Pistols 4 and Unarmed 4 as pre-reqs. SO it's coincidence that many Master Smugglers are also Master Pistoleers AND Master TKA's even though there are no TKA bonuses in smuggling?

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Of course they can affect decisions on what people choose for complimentary professions. But they do not define them. They define the profession.

The point is theat pre-reqs are the minimum skills required for the profession, the simple fact is that not all things that could directly help a profession are pre-reqs. Because they are not absolutely required.

Artisan lines as a minimum requirement make no sense at all. That profession is the base crafting learning profession for elite crafting.

Smugglers being a profession not workingoutside the law would learn to defend themselves ion concealable fashiosn like unarmed and pistol. Anything else is simply not a requirement to the profession.

The point being every profession has complimentary skill boxes that are not required even though it makes things easier based on the way you want to play it.

Altering pre-req's just because you want a particualr template is just wrong.

1. Some professions may benefit a smuggler without being a prerequisite.


2. You wouldn't remove your pistol to attack unarmed (unless you're TKA, but we're assuming raw Smuggler).

There can be ways to fix this:

• Artisan/Engineering skill can enhance experimentation andassembly of clamps and slicing kits. (You'd have to make experimented quality mean something, too.)


• Artisan/Domestic Arts and/or Medic/Organic Chemistrycan enhance experimentation and assembly of spices. (You'd have to make something experimentable on them, of course.)


• Artisan/Business can enhance Underworld skills. (Underworld would need to be meaningful, of course.)

This should be possible with current systems (you can have +skills given in a profession totally unusable because you can't learn a schematic for them). Of course, the lack of value in adding them (due to the missing features mentioned above) make it a revamp thing.

2. Smuggler "unarmed" skills should be usable with or without a weapon and primarily cause state changes. Attacks such as dizzy, delays, and knockdownscould be done as "unarmed" even with aweapon in your hand.Could be all sorts of stuff -- pistol whip (dizzy/knockdown), knee kick (knockdown), head butt (dizzy/delay), etc... It's been discussed in the revamp plenty of times and would be in line with prereqs.

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Smuggler_Caylin wrote:

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JustG wrote:

We are going to remove the Trapping, Hunting, and Survival Scout lines from the Bounty Hunter prerequisites.

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I never thought they would do this. Yet there is quite a difference from removing parts of the prerequisite, and adding different ones as some smugglers are wanting. I wonder how this can evolve.

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Well I'm torn on this one. Did Bounty Hunter need some help? sure But most of the BH did not want their prereqs changed. The Devs went and decided for a profession once again what "they" think a class should be and not the people who actually play it (ex our attempted joke of a revamp). This does though had a lot of new things for the BH's to do but give them "too" much freerange. One of the worst templates I can think of is BH/Pistoleer/Smuggler. Can you image a BH using a Smuggler escape style on us so we can't escape? If our escape skills aren't redone in a way that most BH's will not get them then Smugglers will have no chancewhen faced with a BH missionas a class. They should have made BH's keep Trapping line and let Trapping be used on NPC's to help them do their missions and give Rangers more use in groups.

Now more back onto the subject, I do think it would be cool to see Smuggler be allowed to pick their 2 combat professions BUT do not think it will happen. With BH all their styles are still coming from lines they arleady have (other then LLC which they get at BH). For this to work for Smuggler our combat styles would have to be able tbe used on any type of weapon (ranged for ranged/melee for melee). This could happen but it would take more effort on SOE's part and I just do not see that happening. Though would be nice to be more unique combat wise as a Smuggler rather then the same old everyone is Pistol/Unarmed basic format.