Smuggler Archive

Thread: Holy Smokes, the Devs WILL change prereqs for professions...

Smuggler_Caylin
Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:37 pm
#118

Smugglers have to be inherantly combat capable. What we disagree on apparently is whether or not smugglers have any business or engineering capability by default. I personally don't believe they do.



The Infamous Caylin Borealis - First Master Smuggler on Bria
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse!
:The Ghost with the Most:

JTGAlpha
Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:48 pm
#119

Just like I don't personally believe that they should all be able to be Gunfighting Kung Fu Masters but NOT be able to be good at business. Because that's what two combat pre-reqs means. Two combat pre-reqs means I'll never be as good at business as I could be at combat, and I think that's also wrong and unfair.


I was just contemplating this on the can, where all good ideas come from (I think it's all the bad coming out that makes room for the good).


how about we just DROP one. One pre-req.


Now, I KNOW that sounds like a bad idea, but it's really NOT if you think about it.


1) Combat smuggler is still able. You guys can just keep it, and not give it up. And other combos are now possible, without throwing more difficult pros into it. Fencer/pistoleer. Rifleman/Pistoleer. Pikeman/Pistolleer or whatever.

2) Hybrids are now possible. We're looking at an additional, what? 29 points? That's enough to complete one simple elite combat profession and one simple crafting profession.

3) you can be a full on crafting smuggler.


Now we'll have some points left over in some of these builds so it will make us a tad more formidable but considering we have to beef with guys who have to go toe-toe with Jedi, I dont' see that as a bad thing.



Dayasi Vo'Boda CEO of SCUM PA.
Founders of Agrilatia in the Agrilat Swamps Of Corellia (Intrepid).
Taking Scum and Villainy to a new Level to Serve YOU.
Remember: SCUM does it dirty
Another Horseman of the Smuggling Apocolypse

Smuggler_Caylin
Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:28 am
#120

You can make a business out of it, but a smuggler by himself is not necessarily a businessman.


It takes little to no business sense to follow orders, pick up a box of spice, try to move it through hostile areas, to collect your payment.


I stand by my statement.



The Infamous Caylin Borealis - First Master Smuggler on Bria
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse!
:The Ghost with the Most:

CheTheRebelGuevara
Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:35 am
#121

Ok ok ok I read all the stuff.... whew 6 pages, thank God I am at work. I strongly agree with the fact that a Smuggler and his pistol go hand in hand, no smuggler ever got around the Empire (much less anyother organization)trying to hide a T21 somewhere.. err anywhere. And second of all, this is just a crazy idea, it may have been mentioned before but I havent read about it but why dont the Devs do this for our revamp;


1) Fix Underworld; FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO ANYTHING IN THIS TREE ANYTHING! (this is the most important factor right now so dont flame me because your underworld tree is the same as mine, broken to hell.)


2) This is where my crazy idea comes in - Have the pre-reqs be; Unarmed 4 and Pistols 4 (for the combat smugglers) OR (big or here) Business 4 and Pistols 4 (notice you still need a pistol, this one is for our business oriented smugglers)


3) Ahhh yes third but not the least let us make our own WUKs and AUKs.... thats just me you can flame me on #3 if you like.





- Serg'al Losame -
-Co-Founder of 'The Pirates of the Outer Rim'
-Smuggler and Pirate for Hire
-Sergeant Major of the Troll Army
Hobbs_Nguyen
Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:48 am
#122

Smuggler is the Star Wars equivalent of a rogue in a game. However, considering that we live in more 'civilized' times, Smugglers are also a bit more civilized than just being cutpurses and outright thieves. Smugglers are inherently business people, it just depends on their personal level of sophistication.

You can take Han Solo, a more hands-on kind of person. He always had a blaster ready to deal with the problem on hand. Then you had Talon Karrde (introduced in Zahn's trilogy). He was far more sophisticated than Han Solo, and ostensibly an honorable person, but he ran a fairly large smuggling organization in the shadows of the New Republic and Imperium. But both were involved in the essence of smuggling: the ability to acquire or move something for a customer quickly and quietly without attracting the attention of the authorities.

To that end, a smuggler acquires many skills to assist him with that goal. Already above the law, the smuggler makes illegal modifications of weapons, armor and ships in order to give him the edge (Slicing, though this is now more of a Weapons Upgrade usiness than anything useful for us.) The smuggler is capable of falsifying security codes or slicing codes to get him passed points where he might be inspected and caught. (There is no functionality in the game for this). The smuggler has contacts not only for work, but for information, allowing him to traffic not only in material, but intellectual goods. (This is implemented somewhat in Underworld, with the trading of faction points, but not very good for PVP. Again, it became a merchant business.) And a smuggler, usually lacking in honor and considers cowardice a virtue, has a series of tricks and ploys that allow us to evade and deter others who wish to do us ill (this is partially implemented in Dirty Fighting, which keeps taking a hit.)

To cover the spice portion... well, we shouldn't be making the spice. Give that to the Chefs or someone else. We should, however, be the profession that traffics it around. Again, most of our profession revolves around being able to move and sell items that others can't do out in the open, for fear of the Empire beating them down.



Hobbs N'gu'yen
"You know that burning sensation a smuggler gets every now and then? That's a Jedi, boning you up the arse with his lightsaber." - Publish 9: Secrets of the Force

Marksman: 0/4/0/4
Brawler: 4/0/0/0
Artisan: 4/0/0/4
Smuggler: 0/4/1/1
Weaponsmith: 0/0/0/0
DRWolfe
Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:24 am
#123


Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
You can make a business out of it, but a smuggler by himself is not necessarily a businessman.
It takes little to no business sense to follow orders, pick up a box of spice, try to move it through hostile areas, to collect your payment.
I stand by my statement.



Yep yep.

How about this:
The main function of a Smuggler, any Smuggler, is to move illegal or highly-taxed goods from one place to another without getting caught. This is a dangerous thing to do, and the Smuggler often deals with dangerous people, and so needs to be able to handle himself well, but in an unobtrusive manner. Hence Pistols and Unarmed fighting ability.

Said Smuggler can either work for someone else (no business sense required, just take this there and don't let anyone see you), or run his own Smuggling business (business sense required as this individual is making the deals AND moving the merchandise).

Now, no matter which type of Smuggler you are, you gotta be able to deal with the tough types. It's part of the package, and therefore, so are the Pistol and Unarmed prereqs. Only the second type of Smuggler needs to have business savvy (and I'm not so sure that's the correct type of business savvy, more like what the Underworld Tree should be if you ask me), therefore no business prereqs, but there are enough additional Skill Points to get the business skills.



Renn JeretuJoraan Stormwing
Elder SmuggleruElder Jedi
Smugglers' AllianceuArkon's Havoc Squadron
Eclipse - Dark Lotus Ninja

NofrikinfuN
Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:08 am
#124

Everyone is acting like skill prerequisites need be set in stone, making all people of one profession equal. The way I see it, there should be various paths to the same professions. Think of it something like this...


The current prereqs for Smuggler are Unarmed 4, Pistols 4... So why not make that the requirements to become a rogue-heavy smuggler? Maybe the Smuggler would rather be heavy into slicing... Engineering 4, Unarmed OR Pistols 4. Spice Pusher? Domestic Arts 4, (Homemakers... LOL) Unarmed OR Pistols 4. Underworld? Business 4 and (Surprise!) Unarmed OR Pistols 4.


Now, this would kind of require the ability to use the rogue skills as either unarmed or pistols, but it would go something like this:


Smuggler A has taken Unarmed and Pistols 4. Smuggler B has taken Domestic Arts 4 and Pistols 4. Smuggler C has taken Unarmed 4 and Engineering 4.


Smuggler A is the best at combat. Smuggler B makes unbeatable drugs. Smuggler C can slice better than the rest.


The system is kind of like the Diablo 2 synergy system, added in 1.10... Basically skill sets can have effects on other skill sets without having directly related modifiers. Now, I can't crunch all the numbers and tell you how much better any one of them should be, but I think it's a workable system. Also, Imagine all of these kinds of smugglers:


Unarmed 4, Pistols 4, Domestic Arts 4, Business 4, Engineering 4, Master Smuggler. This leaves 72 skill points, and makes the best possible all-aroundSmuggler. Also, this system would leave current smugglers intact. Similar systems could probably be instituted for other professions, though it would be easier for the combat professions to just dabble around to become better. Any thoughts?



Kandu Necos - Eclipse
Kalia Necos - Bloodfin
Poplocca - Radiant
Ryutek
Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:47 am
#125

I posted this once before, and thought I had posted a link in here as well, but figured since the debate has continued to grow I would post it here. JTG, I understand your points completely, and even agree with the logic behind them, but the fundamental difference is that Business Sense is not a required skill a Smuggler should have (it doesn't take business sense to do the actual smuggling if you work for someone, only if you run your own operation).









What is a Smuggler?


By Ryutek






I've seen a lot of pepople lately who have different ideas of what a smuggler is, or should be, and wanted to take the time to define Smugglers from a few perspectives.







Section 1: Definition(s)

Section 2: Smugglers in the Real World

Section 3: Smugglers in the Movies

Section 4: Smugglers in Star Wars

Section 5: How Smugglers Should be Viewed, My Analysis







Section 1: Definition(s)


Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: smuggle

Function: verb

transitive senses


  • 1 : to import or export secretly contrary to the law and especially without paying duties imposed by law
  • 2 : to convey or introduce surreptitiously

intransitive senses


  • 1 : to import or export something in violation of the customs laws

Dictionary.com

smuggle


  • 1 : To import or export without paying lawful customs charges or duties.
  • 2 : To bring in or take out illicitly or by stealth.





Section 2: Smugglers In The Real World




Throughout history there have been many good examples of Smugglers, and instead of trying to name the vast majority of them I am going to instead give just a few examples of different groups. Let's get started:




  • "Legit" people smugglers, including the Underground Railroad in the USA as well as Oskar Schindler
  • The West African diamond trade
  • Air America in the 1970s
  • Prohibition and the US in the 1930s
  • The Eastern European sex slavery industry
  • The French Resistance and the Spanish Civil War and their underground pipelines of weapons and information

These are just a few examples, for more look at electricnomad's response in this thread.





Section 3: Smugglers in the Movies





  • The Transporter

Statham's character would move anything for anyone, as long as it was in package form and the rules of the deal were not broken. I know there are many examples in television and film (such as Schindler in Schindler's List, Crapgame from Kelly's Heroes,Lawrence in Lawrence of Arabia, and the list can continue), but in all honesty I think this is the perfect example, and so I'll leave it at this one, unless someone feels I need to elaborate more.





Section 4: Smugglers in Star Wars


  • Han Solo (Link to Databank)

    • A Capable Pilot.
    • A Ship "Mechanic." (Was at least able to keep the Falcon flying, Chewie was more of a mechanic IMO)
    • Handy with a Weapon. (Basically Some Pistoleer)
    • Arguably some Squad Leader Ability.
    • Definitely NOT a Businessman. Solo was basically just a hired hand as a Smuggler.



  • Lando Calrissian (Link to Databank)

    • An "OK" Pilot. (Started out as a terrible Pilot)
    • Handy with a Weapon. (Again, basically some Pistoleer)
    • More of a Businessman than most, but as a Smuggler he was still not as big a businessman as some would believe (see the SW Databank for a brief description). He became more of a Businessman when he turned "respectable."
    • A Gambler



  • Talon Karrde (Link to Databank)

    • A Decent Pilot, relies on his crew to do the actual piloting and instead Captains the ship.
    • Handy with a Weapon when necessary.
    • Definitely a Businessman.
    • A Leader of an Organization that deals in Smuggling AND Information Gathering, not just a Smuggler. (NOTE: He would "smuggle" the information to the appropriate person, so in a way these go hand in hand)
    • Some Creature Handler.


    NOTE: These are very basic rundowns of some of the more notable Smugglers. You will notice, however, that if you go back and read the descriptions for each there is very little written about them BEFORE they went "respectable." The same basic thing is stated about each one (with the exception of Karrde). Solo and Calrissian both were "scoundrels" who operated in the fringe and "rubbed elbows" with the likes of Mercenaries, Bounty Hunters, Thieves, etc. They were not great leaders or businessmen as Smugglers. They were merely hired help whose sole purpose was to move cargo that was considered illegal.



    NOTE: Smugglers in the Star Wars Universe did not make spices, they transported them, and slicing was something they utilized for their own gain, not for the benefit of others.



    Section 5: How Smugglers Should be Viewed, My Analysis




    What does all of this mean? Well (and this is really the main part of my post, the rest just helps to show the diversity and give some credence and support to my views), I'm glad you asked.



    First and foremost, the Smuggler moves goods from Point A to Point B for another entity or entities. Technically these goods are considered illegal, although depending on the laws of the governing bodies of each point, these items may not be illegal at both ends. An example would be Smuggler A moving crates of Rice for the Government of Country A into Country B. The intent of Country A is to supply Humanitarian Aid, and the only reason they need a Smuggler to transport the Rice is to get it past the warring factions in Country B and actually to the "People."



    Now, we can all agree that tangible items can be smuggled, and should be smuggled, from person to person (given they are illegal or that, such is the case above, there is just some type of obstruction between the two parties). This is the view that most people have, but there is a failure to incorporate one more piece to this puzzle.



    An intangible item can also be smuggled. This item is information (stored on a tangible item such as a datapad, a droid, or even in the mind of a person). The perfect example, from Star Wars no less, would be the Bothan Spies who managed to obtain the plans of the Original Death Star. Do not get me wrong, spies are not the same as smugglers. Smugglers would be used to get the spies, or the information, back to the interested party. Granted, this would not be every case, but it would happen at times.



    So what is my point? Let's keep in mind that Smugglers are not thieves, although some may decide to pursue the life of a thief (such as "shipjacking" and smuggling the ships). Smugglers are not, technically, businessmen, although some may pursue that lifestyle. Smugglers are not true fighters, although many will learn to fight to ensure their survival. Smugglers are the people you rely on to move cargo, be it weapons, drugs, people, information, etc., from one point to another effectively, and who are able to complete that assignment even if "problems" arise (problems being law enforcement, competition, engine failure, etc.)



    Smugglers are only the people that move the goods. End of story. How they achieve this is up to each individual Smuggler.



    A Smuggler can choose to pursue business, or piloting, or fighting, or creature handling, or anything else to help them do their job. They are not required to do so.





    So What is a Smuggler?

    A Smuggler is a person who moves items from one point to another, regardless of odds, for a profit or ideal. Amazing how that one sentence sums everything up isn't it? This entire thread can be summed up that way, so I'll repeat it:





    A Smuggler is a person who moves items from one point to another, regardless of odds, for a profit or ideal.















    This sort of applies for the moment, so I wanted to add this link in:



    A Letter To Those Who Do Not Understand The Smugglers' Position





    Ryutek

    Former Teräs Käsi Correspondent, Circa 08/2004 to 02/2005

    No longer holding out hope, SWG will never be the game we fought so hard for, that we believed so much in. Farewell friends.



    [email protected]
  • Bamsee
    Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:27 pm
    #126






    Smuggler_Caylin wrote:

    Smugglers have to be inherantly combat capable. What we disagree on apparently is whether or not smugglers have any business or engineering capability by default. I personally don't believe they do.






    Smuggling is flat out a business. A Smuggler is hired to move cargo from one place to another. This cargo is as such, illegal, at some or alllocations inbetweenfrom point A to point B. Smuggler fighting skills do not come from being skilled fighters, it comes from their need due to moving illegal cargo and having to if they are not able to escape then to fight off thier attacker(s). Smuggling is a dangerous "business", hence the need for being able to fight "some". Han Solo was "hired" to move cargo from point A to point B. Problem was point B got blown up. The Falcon was also caught easily by the Death Star Battlestation and was "allowed" to escape. Han's fighting skills came from using them over and over through dealing with his smuggling "business".


    Smuggling is simply a business unlike others in the galaxy. We are delivery boys who now and then have to fight our way to the dropoff point. HALF of our class is based on business. To say our Smugglers are by default not businesspeople is faulty. We may not fit into the general terms of business as it is with all other business related classes but we are businesspeople. In Beta Smuggler DID have business as part of it's prereqs but was taken out due to using too many skill points. Mistakenly the Dev(s) kept only combat prereqs for a hybrid class.


    The problem is combatis 75% of the games content/professions and many Smugglers want to be combat professionals. This though is not a Smuggler with combat capablities but is rather a combat professional who dabbles in smuggling. Look though in the game to find your answers... Nym, Smuggler who runs a large organization, but has a headquaters and main location for making deals. Every business has a front office, even if it's just your ship that business is carried out through. Smuggling has always been and will always be a "business skill". Just because it doesn't act like your average run of the mill business doesn't take anything away from it's true purpose. And that is to be hired to move cargo from point A to point B and if it is unavoidable then to engage in combat long enough to escape or destroythe enemyso that you can complete your business.


    Fighting is needed in Smuggling but so in the business side. To ignore either side is to not be a Smuggler. Business SHOULD have been left in the Smuggler prereqs in Beta. By taking it out it took and ignored half of the classes skill boxes and made the actualSmuggler professionnot truely a Smuggler. For without the business sidewe would never actually be moving things illegally...



    I support server merging of some sort for the betterment and longevity of the game and it's player community!
    Havok3060
    Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:43 pm
    #127

    Wow... if they do go threw with the Smuggler bounties then Im deffently going to have a run for my money.

    Im only Master merchant and going for master Smuggler (3444)

    Need more moves to slow people down, so I can escape!



    _________________________________________
    Nerf Me-
    Outer Rim Smuggling Supplies
    Master Smuggler Master Merchant Servicing Bria Since 2003
    Hotrodg
    Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:38 am
    #128

    I for one am in favor for different pre-reqs for smuggler (though it would wrech my current template)


    I do want to point out though, that there is a HUGE difference between changing pre-reqs and removing pre-reqs.



    boeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeg
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    inanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginan}} Colonel
    boeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeg}} Boeginan Hega
    inanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginan}} Master Smuggler
    boeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeg}} RFury
    inanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginan
    boeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeg}} Desiasre Hega
    inanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginan}} Master Weaponsmith
    boeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeg}} RFury
    inanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginanboeginan
    Scoooter
    Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:31 am
    #129

    Well those of you that think smuggers are business men..Well not legitimate. that is what the underworld tree is for. One issue ius that underworld does not give us much before the revamp.


    The reason business was removed from beta was because it caused skill point unbalancing because that is the line for legitimate businesses. Even if a muggler CHOOSES to start a vendor and vend spice it is still not legal. Making that a pre-req is not a good idea. The smuggler is not defined as a legitimate business person. They conduct business in the shadows because of legal reasons..hence underworld.


    Also as far as us being a hybrid crafting profession.


    Now there are those that wish to persue the crafting end of smuggling. That is of course their choice. After all no one forrces people how to use their points. But smuggler is clearly not about crafting.


    Take a look at theotherhybrid crafters - Doctor, CM, BE, Medic. Look at the intensity of their crafting, the specifics, sub components,rare resources required and then look at smuggler.


    It is very clear that the only reason that smugglers have crafting is because since spiceand slicing are illegal thay had to getspce and the tools in the game somehow without having the legitimate crafters do illegal things. So the devs placed a crafting line for tools and spice in smuggler with EXTREMELY easy schematics. Clearly showing that the emphisis on smuggler is not crafting(in the devs vision). By complexity and requirements we are playing with tinker toys where the other hybrid crafters are building sky scrapers. Crafting is clearly a seconday skill to the smuggler and clearly not what the smuggler is supposed to be about.


    The DEV vision is clear so to add anything as a pre-req for crafting and legitimate business is clearly wrong. but again we all have choices on spending our extra points.










    Scoooter - Master Pilot/Master Politician
    ScootBacca - Master Creature Handler/Master Rifleman
    Co-Leader - mVa
    Mayor of Mos Vegas, Tatooine, Valcyn
    JTGAlpha
    Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:44 pm
    #130

    Scooter...you are the ONLY person to ever say that the dev's vision for smuggler was clear. Clearly...it wasn't. Otherwise we'd be smuggling.


    No. The Business line changed because everyone cried out and said, "CRAFTING XP IS TOO HARD"


    That's why it changed. Because back then there was still a little thing called usage xp. And this is where you're correct about our crafting being minor in comparison. A bunch of people whined and cried saying, "No one uses our stuff but us, except our food which is one use! And there's no experimentation!" The other arguement was made too. But the main arguement I heard was, "Crafting XP (and usuage xp) are too hard!" Usuage xp is gone. It's no longer gating us.


    And as for our emphasis being on COMBAT? Psh. Most hybrids get SKILL MODS. We get ONE line of direct combat help and you want to say that our emphasis, by virtue of our tree is on COMBAT? The only thing that leans us to combat is our REVISED pre-reqs because they give us easier access to REAL combat professions. And our OTHER semi-combat line is the one where YOU said those devs with that REAL clear vision, was supposed to support the BUSINESS side of us. But all it does is help us in the GCW and get us discounts in the GCW. Hell, we're more directly tied to crafting than combat! 1 tree gives us tools we have to craft, and the abillity to improve the stats of crafted items. The other gives us food to sell, which we make, which were SUPPOSED to be experimentable, like ANY chef, except for a bug, an oversight, that they never felt like fixing. The combat tree is only 4 abillities. REALLY good abilities, but that's it. No accuracy mods, speed mods, or damage mods or anything. Oh, and damage mitigation. The Underworld tree is a bunch of skills only useful to GCW's and only REALLY useful to OVERT factioneers. The only ACTUAL combat bonus it gives is it reduces your faction penalty for dying and increases your faction award for killing! Neither helps you personally be better at combat.


    I'm sorry. I REALLY dont' believe the devs meant us to be mainly combat. I believe the devs meant us to be good at combat. OR good at commerce. OR pretty good at both. Not kung-fu gunfighters that happen to sell illegal goods and services.





    Dayasi Vo'Boda CEO of SCUM PA.
    Founders of Agrilatia in the Agrilat Swamps Of Corellia (Intrepid).
    Taking Scum and Villainy to a new Level to Serve YOU.
    Remember: SCUM does it dirty
    Another Horseman of the Smuggling Apocolypse

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