Smuggler Archive

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Court-Jester wrote:

To me they are one in the same. We're talking about smuggling missions for anyone? I don't think so. By nature a smuggling mission would be for smugglers. Delivery or not, I highlighted the portion in red simply because hes stating he wants to do a smuggler'esque mission but not exclusive to smugglers? What the hell does that mean?

Therefore, if you can't do it specifically for smugglers why not? It was done for Bounty Hunters...

Message Edited by Court-Jester on 08-12-200501:51 PM

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JFreeman wrote:

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tralita_tusnami wrote:

EVERY ONE HERE IS BLIND, hell i jsut figured it out let me explain:

TRALITA (A SMUGGLER) walks up to a standard mission terminal performs slice (WITH MOLECULAR CLAMPS AND LASER KNIFES BABY) and then turns on the deliver mission, but instead of jsut a standard low pay easy deliverly misson she sees deliverly mission(s) for 50k a pop with a CUT of the deliverly (SLICING LOOT) and sets off to preform the mission, picks up the deliverly and gets a waypoint on another plannet, with the cargo in hand (every single imperial or npc police with in 20 meters will immediatly agro) she heads out to deliver the goods. Is shot at in BESTINE but escapes, and delivers the cargo.

later she takes another mission but slips up and is captured (INCAPED and cargo taken) and is set loose with a warning (3 strikes in 7 days and your out) upon her 3rd strike a bounty mission is placed upon her for 24 IN GAME hours, when the bh incounters her (100 meeters of her) she has 5 minutes to escape to a safe distance of 3000 meeters or off plannet.

THIS SIMPLE SYSTEM USES CONTENT INGAME NOW

and simply does a few things, allows us to get our own loot, allows lower level BH to hunt other than NPC alowing for intresting match ups, and allows us smugglers to smuggle plane and simple how about that

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I like this.

These are the sorts of things we're looking at now - existing systems we can tie into the (incomplete) smuggling system in order to flesh it out.

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This would be a nice way to introduce it into the system.

Nicely thought out, Tralita

Just a refresher on the Smuggler timeline for all those "warn and fuzzy types".....

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Blair wrote:

Smuggler
We are going to look at and probably revise the Underworld skill set.
We'll fix bugs with slicing 4.
Spices will get experimentation values (for withdrawals, etc).
Feign death causing the player to take too much damage and to be unusable when moving will be fixed.
We'll add more stuff to the master box. (Probably additional slicing features)
The bug with not being able to eat spice will be fixed.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=417746&highlight=smuggler#M417746

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9 September 2003 - Devs promise action aftera 1,010-post filibuster by Smugglers on the old SWG Discussion Forum

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Holocron wrote:

On his way out the door, he tossed this over his shoulder:

1. Underworld Branch

- I think we are going to try and replace most of these skill boxes with something more usable, since these just aren't very fun. The main issue is finding the time on the schedule to implement some new smuggler skills.

2. Slicing

- We'd like to add slicing code to more types of terminals.

- The problem with weapon slicing giving better results than advanced weapon slicing has been fixed. Slicing 2 had a bonus that Slicing 4 was supposed to have.

3. Dirty Fighting

- Some unarmed moves would be good to add and probably fairly easy. We will look into it.

- We will look into adding combat bonuses to this tree.

- We'll fix last ditch to be balanced with similar moves and we'll look into the other smuggler moves to improve their usability.

4. Spices

- Experimentation never had any impact on spices, so the UI stubs for these were removed. Adding experimentation systems to crafted items takes time, but we'd like to add one to spicing at some point.

- The effects of spices still need to be balanced to other buff consumables. Also, effects like burst run, etc, can be added, but require more development time.

5. Master

- 25% off faction perks is very very useful to any smuggler in PvP, but we will look into possibly adding nonPvP bonuses to this box.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=19942&highlight=smuggler#M19942

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And so on.....

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GreenMarine wrote:

See this link for part 1:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=96114

Part 1 reached over 1200 posts in less than a week. Clearly the smuggler & bounty hunter professions care deeply about the design of any kind of smuggling system. I'm really happy with the level of response. A lot of people who don't normally post are chiming in with their opinion and, in general, the discussion has been civil.

I want to try and distill the discussion down and start to find solutions. Here were the three big issues that turned into long discussions.

Summary 1: The key argument was over the impact of "visibility" punishments for ripping off suppliers or failing smuggling missions. There is a portion of the player base that desires PvP and a portion that does not. The main issue is the possibility of "involuntary PvP" or a player gaining a bounty who wants to be a smuggler but not participate in PvP.

Solution: The solution I like most is to have the mission suppliers offer two types of mission for each skill level. The punishments for failing or cheating a mission then become:

• Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs toa faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.
  
• CriticalMission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.

The rewards for critical missions would be somewhat higher than normal missions. Also, some types of illegal cargo would only be available via critical missions. The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.

What about normal players scanned with illegal items? For now, it seems reasonable that we don't add visibility for normal players. That's too much to ask of the player base as a whole. Later, we could possibly add a level of illegality above Highly Illegal (say, Military Class) that gains visibility. It seems wise to leave this area open for future discuss, but not include it in a revamp.

Summary 2: The second major issue revolved around the punishments for being caught with contraband:

1. Some players feel that dying isn't enough of a punishment.
   
2. Some players recommended a faction hit.
   
3. Some players feel that storm troopers are too weak.
   
4. Players don't like that only storm troopers scan.

Solution: The solution obviously has several parts. We need to discuss more what the punishments should be. There are a few types of punishment that we can draw from:

• Loss of GCW faction.
  
• Loss of NPC faction.
  
• Combat & risk of death.
  
• Confiscation of the illegal goods.

One possibility might be to make it so that the scanning NPC isn't the NPC that attacks. Instead he "calls for backup" and the backup is relative to the player's level. This brings up the possibility of a group of players using a low level smuggler to spawn lower level faction targets. Thesolution to stopping faction farming of scan spawned NPCs is to prevent them from giving GCW faction. There are many other legitimate ways to gain faction. Even if it seems inconsistant, it does make somesense that the Rebels aren't necessarily going to reward a player for killing troopers just doing their job.

This also means that high level smugglers would be dealing with security forces tougher than your average Stormtrooper.

It seems that we should make more factions other than Imperial scan. Why can't the Rebels scan in a Rebel controlled territory? They aren't going to like spice abuse much either. Rebel commanders could then have some immunity from scans in their home regions. Naboo's Royal Security Force (a neutral faction) might also scan and have their own forces to deal with violators.

Summary 3: The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.

Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.

This is an issue I need to think about more before I develop a complete opinion.

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At this point, we know the arguments from every side in the debate. There have been enough posts for us to understand the views involved. In this thread, let's talk about possible solutions and compromises. Instead of perpetuating the debate on PvP vs. PvE, look for ways that the two views can be reconciled. This is the next key in effective game design for massively multiplayer games.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=98219&page=1

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GreenMarine wrote:

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silversaber wrote:

I mean, how hard is it for you guys to make a NPC that hashit points greater than a Playerfully buffed? That can see through FD? That can go through any wall? That can have twice the firepower than any player can have?

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The point isn't to create an insurmountable challenge. We can ensure the PvE smuggling missions will be fun and challenging for all players according to their skill level.

The addition of missions with a visibility/PvP/bounty aspect is to enhance the game for the players who are interested in pursuing that kind of gameplay. It doesn't exclude PvEers from anything but what they want to be excluded from.

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silversaber wrote:

So, why are we going to be stuck with lesser missions witha lesser reward?

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All due respect, but that's a very loaded statement.The quality of the missions and the quality of the reward will be worthwhile. The only difference is that there is a path for PvPers and that path includes additional rewards. Why? Because of the increased risk. While not every bounty hunter is awesome at his job, some will be. In my original post, I also pointed out that the other punishments will also be more severe. The increased risk doesn't only include the potential PvP.

Visibility decreases over time. There's nothing preventing you from occaisionally taking a high risk mission. If you manage your visibility well, you won't have to be involved in PvP. But you would be walking the line...and getting improved rewards for your increased risk.

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silversaber wrote:

No matter how tasty the Devs try make the GCW PvP look, the PK mentality of PvPrs will poison it for the rest of the Players.

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This simply isn't true. While you may not enjoy PvP, or you may have had bad experiences, a large number of the player base regularly play PvP. You know it's important for the devs to have a realistic view of the game. It's just as important that you have one.

We make an effort to design systems that appeal to both PvE and PvP players. You have to find a way to compromise your view with that of the PvPers, because they aren't going away, just as you like to remind PvPers that you aren't going away.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=98435&highlight=#M98435

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GreenMarine wrote:

Tomorrow let's start a conversation on the underworld skill tree. I think based on the conversations we've had in these first two giant threads, I can come up with a compromise system. But let's worry about hammering out more specific details later (we have a lot of time).

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=100334&highlight=#M100334

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GreenMarine wrote:

All of the Correspondents are here at SOE-Austin and I was trapped in my office by a large roving pack of them. Smuggler Caylin was at the lead and he was able to corner me for a few minutes discussion. Unfortunately, he was quickly dragged away by Tigger to attend the next part of the conference. I hope to get another chance to touch base with Caylin prior to the end of the conference. He wanted me to post a message saying that I am alive and I do exist. I apologize for not participating on the boards much lately. I've been as busy as a Kuat mechanic on inspection day, with all the JTL development going on. Eep!

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=115912&highlight=#M115912

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Thunderheart wrote: Weapons decay with usage; each time you use it, the item decays.When the condition of the weapon reaches 25% of the item's maximum total condition, the weapon’s minimum and maximum damage starts to decay.The item reaches a decay threshold at the 25% mark.

For every 1% below the 25% condition threshold, the weapon’s minimum and maximum damage is decreased by 1%. This usage decay will drop a weapon's effectiveness down to 0.

What you can do when your weapon reaches 25% is to "roll the dice" and try to repair your weapon.It's a long shot, but it is a chance to get your weapon repaired. A weapon repair kit is an old fashioned dice roll chance to repair your weapon. If you "get a good dice roll" and repair a weapon (or have it repaired for you) back above the 25% threshold, the weapon’s initial min/max damage is restored. For smugglers, slicing in no way effects the rate at which a weapon decays, buta sliced weaponwill make the weapon repair even chancier than it already is. Weaponsmiths have a slightly greater chance of repairing a weapon than other professions. Additionally, trying to repair a weapon with less than 25% gets more and more risky with each percentage point and will probably destroy the weapon outright.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=game_guides&message.id=232594&highlight=smuggler#M232594

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Thunderheart wrote:

The smuggler revamp is still scheduled for "post space."

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Naritus&message.id=196873&highlight=smuggler#M196873

NOTE: Thunderheart's post was a clicky linked to one of GreenMarine's former posts.

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Thunderheart wrote:

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SdeWndr wrote:

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Squatch wrote:

HeHeHe, TH replyed to almost all of the posts, but he skipped right over that one about the Smugglers. Par for the course.

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I actually posted a link to this in the Smugglers forums. Your right.. he skipped right by it. I've been waiting to see if he would come back to it or not.

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Please stop propagating silly rumors and conspiracy theories. It just isn't true. After JtL, GreenMarine will be going forward with the Smuggler Revamp (schedule unannounced). Early on, one of the main reasons we didn't want to talk about it is for just this reason.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Naritus&message.id=196856&highlight=smuggler#M196856

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SOETyrant wrote:

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HimFan wrote:

I would also like to add that is was said that after JTL, us smugglers were going to get some love. Now we are looking at after January.

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Quoting from the message: " major any before do typically we period testing beta open the be will of phase final>We will put the Combat Upgrade publish on ourTest Centerso all customers have access to it prior to it being published to the Live service."

We are approaching this development carefully and methodically. We are starting small because it will need some focused iteration and testing that simply can't be done in a mass forum. We will try our design and implementation in alpha, and as we see it working we will open it up to ever larger numbers of people, taking feedback all along the way. The design as it exists today will change, possibly radically to make sure we have the fun factor SWG should have.

In the end we expect our combat to be "is to make game play more strategic, more interactive and ultimately more engaging and fun for players of all levels". That is what we are committed to, and this is what you should measure the result against.

And unfortunately non-combat professions will need to wait for this to be complete, since the context of the final Conbat Upgrade will be what sets our bar for the other profession revamps.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dev_archive&message.id=99422&highlight=smuggler#M99422

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SOETyrant wrote:

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kgmkiorys wrote:

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SOETyrant wrote:

And unfortunately non-combat professions will need to wait for this to be complete, since the context of the final Conbat Upgrade will be what sets our bar for the other profession revamps.

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so that is that a statement that our smuggler revamp will occur after thus combat upgrade thing? Time to take sides and feel responsible, Tyrant (or anyone in charge), we've been too much lied or mislead.

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From the original message "Once Combat Upgrade is done, we will immediately work on upgrading all the non-combat professions in another series of publishes.".

That paragraph lays out our high level Livedevelopment strategy. I'm sure every time inthe pasta mention was made of something we intended to do it was true -at that moment-. But the team does not set all the priorities for the game and things have changed quickly and often since launch. LucasArts and we are aligned on this development strategy and we are going to make it happen by hook or crook. If anything holds us up or slows us down, we will let the community know.

Combat Upgrade is the basis we need in place before revamping the other professions. And we need all the professions to be solid to build a complete and compelling GCW, because it will affect everyone. We will do all this as quickly as we know how, but it will be high quality first and foremost.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dev_archive&message.id=99424&highlight=smuggler#M99424

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Message Edited by Kelko on 08-14-2005 11:36 PM

Message Edited by Kelko on 08-14-2005 11:48 PM

1. Is the bare minimum to get something out. It's normally easy to tell when
   this happens.
   
2. It's a smuggler missions simply because it requires a smuggler to pick it
   up.
   
3. Thrown on a terminal that the world can see. This is an example of
   completely breaking the immersion that should be presented in this game and
   this profession. They don't call it the criminal underworld simply because it
   sounds cool.

1. Requires a smuggler to complete, the better smugglers getting
   correspondinly better missions with suitable rewards with increased risk.
   
2. Uses the smugglers skills in an interactive, rather than passive way.
   
3. Player interdependence that allows us to get our friends involved as well.
   Han and Chewy, anyone?
   
4. Has consequences for failure that not only get us in trouble with the game
   world but with the player base in the form of player bounties.
   
5. Progression of the Smuggler is directly influenced by the player taking up
   smuggler missions. Such as Smuggling XP for certain trees.

1. ?
   
2. ?
   
3. ?
   
4. etc?

1. Why do we need smuggling missions?
   
   
   
   • To give the smuggler profession content that is actually based on the
     name they possess.
     
   • To increase the Underworld feel of Star Wars Galaxies that was easily
     seen in the original trilogy. (Immersion)
     
   • To bring other professions together in an effort to accomplish our
     namesake content.
     
   • To make smugglers feel that they warranted some attention from over two
     years of broken promises and neglect.
   
   
2. What should they involve?
   
   
   
   • NPC interaction rather than terminals. We aren't supposed to be
     interacting with computers, we should be interacting with the 'people'.
     
   • Dynamic missions where any scans or spawns would be random, with various
     scripting changes to make it seem like a unique encounter.
     
   • Using skills found within the smuggler skill tree to bring about a
     successful mission.
     
   • Player (not just NPC)interaction. To assist with your completion
     of the mission or to actually smuggle for them.
   
   
3. What would it add to the SWG universe?
   
   
   
   • Immersion
     
   • Diversity in how we spend our play time.
     
   • Player interaction and interdependence.
     
   • A virtually happy smuggler community.
   
   
4. Why did you become a smuggler?
   
   
   
   • To smuggle and be hunted by other players for breaking the law.
   
   
5. What does the lack of smuggling content do to the smuggling profession?
   
   
   
   • Without it, our profession does not fulfill it's purpose or it's
     potential. It is one of the most mind boggling bungles of my gaming
     experience that an MMO profession does not do, what it is supposed to be
     doing. Particularly for over two years!

Message Edited by Smuggler_Caylin on 08-12-2005 03:52 PM

God it's good to see you back Caylin, you said it more thouroughly than I could.

Hey guys, not a smuggler but Ive been watching this thread from dev tracker (Im a ranger). A few ideas:

Smuggler provides a theoretical link between so many aspects of the star wars universe that it would be a shame to not tie them all into the game function for extremely high levels of smuggling activity. For instance:

MCH out in the wilds of dathomir tames himself a nice rancor baby. Removing animals from dathomir is perhaps a rather illegal activity so he needs to convince the authorities that his pet is "legal." Contacts a friendly ranger who establishes a field base camp from which he sends out the word that there might be some goods to be trafficked as well as arranging for the pickup of a certain container as well as its drop-off in orbit over the planet in order to circumvent local starport authorities. Arranged smuggler picks up the container in space. Suspicious transport pilot tips off regional authorities about the suspected activities of a certain ship and the word goes out to intercept said ship, possibly even including master pilots of the appropriate sectors police force, RSF for instance. Ships attempt to intercept smuggler who maybe has transferred his cargo to another smuggler or uses his connections with the RSF to arrange a deal. Smuggler seems to be about who you know and who you can get to work with you, so maybe you have to be rather friendly with the starport master? RSF is reluctant to go public against their own people so they arrange to have a quiet bounty placed on the head of said smuggler who still has to meet with a friendly CH *wink and convince the appropriate public official, (maybe a mayor?)that this pet was indeed bred somewhere other than dathomir.

Smuggling on the ground and smuggling in space are obviously two totally different systems but they should tie in to each other in order to make for a complete package. If you allow the space side to simply start with the picking up of cargo and getting it to somewhere else then you are free to later on tie in to the above system. Ground smuggling should involve NPCs and PC's rather than mission terminals.

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JFreeman wrote:

Ideally. We don't want to offer "a delivery mission that only smugglers can take", but rather to offer missions that actually require the use of smuggling skills to complete.

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Making them be Smuggler inclusive group missions might be better than giving them solo missions. If smuggler solo missions were going to beanything like the flat and insanely boring entertainer missions, then it's much better to make them grouped activities instead.

The only reason I think any of us are balking at this is that BH missions are solo and on going. Smugglers are the third iconic prof in this game. Han played a bigger part in the original movies than any bounty hunter and I think most people believe smuggler should have a fair chunk of content just for its self just for that reason alone.

Here's what I as a smuggler fan would like to see mission inclusion with:

• Bounty Hunter/Jedi Content - This is an ongoing system that will never run out of content because it is player driven. Smugglers should be tied into this cycle by allowing them to take Jedi off the terminals and they should gain their own visibility for this action so that the BH could then hunt the smuggler. This makes use of an existing system and takes content away from no one. The BH still has a target.


• Pilot Content - I understand that space content is meant to be accessible by all and the group opportunities for these missions are currently pretty limited, so the easiest way to make use of this existing content would be to grant freelance pilot skill boxes along with each smuggler skill box with out the smuggler player having to actually earn the needed xp. This way no one is locked out from this content, but smugglers get a "perk."


• Cantina Content - Many smugglers have expressed a desire to have some role with cantinas and who can do that better than entertainers? The current entertainer missions aren't very exciting, but perhaps smugglers and entertainers could share new missions that would involve entertainers as informants for smugglers - sort of their eyes and ears on the ground. It would be nice if this could have both PvE (NPC) and PvP (BH/Jedi or PvP Bases) options.


• Regular Combat Missions - The slicing of terms is a good thing and I'd like to see more done with it, but also I'm dying to see smugglers have a true courier role. It's not a regular western rpg archetype, but it is in asian games and I think it rocks. I play these classes whenever they are offered. Since we don't have anything like teleportation in this game and I doubt anyone wants to see that, it would make the most sense to have a smuggler be able to call down a ship to fly his team away to a list of earned shuttle ports. This ties in with the pilot skill grants and also could offer smugglers some neat quest opportunities to earn these docking locations.

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ZalokOnan wrote:

Hey guys, not a smuggler but Ive been watching this thread from dev tracker (Im a ranger). A few ideas:

Smuggler provides a theoretical link between so many aspects of the star wars universe that it would be a shame to not tie them all into the game function for extremely high levels of smuggling activity. For instance:

MCH out in the wilds of dathomir tames himself a nice rancor baby. Removing animals from dathomir is perhaps a rather illegal activity so he needs to convince the authorities that his pet is "legal." Contacts a friendly ranger who establishes a field base camp from which he sends out the word that there might be some goods to be trafficked as well as arranging for the pickup of a certain container as well as its drop-off in orbit over the planet in order to circumvent local starport authorities. Arranged smuggler picks up the container in space. Suspicious transport pilot tips off regional authorities about the suspected activities of a certain ship and the word goes out to intercept said ship, possibly even including master pilots of the appropriate sectors police force, RSF for instance. Ships attempt to intercept smuggler who maybe has transferred his cargo to another smuggler or uses his connections with the RSF to arrange a deal. Smuggler seems to be about who you know and who you can get to work with you, so maybe you have to be rather friendly with the starport master? RSF is reluctant to go public against their own people so they arrange to have a quiet bounty placed on the head of said smuggler who still has to meet with a friendly CH *wink and convince the appropriate public official, (maybe a mayor?) that this pet was indeed bred somewhere other than dathomir.

Smuggling on the ground and smuggling in space are obviously two totally different systems but they should tie in to each other in order to make for a complete package. If you allow the space side to simply start with the picking up of cargo and getting it to somewhere else then you are free to later on tie in to the above system. Ground smuggling should involve NPCs and PC's rather than mission terminals.

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Some great ideas

Unforunately, the restrictions imposed on players required by some of them wouldn't go down too well with many players. It would be great if the interdependancy that is outlined there were desired by all, but it seems to be the case that it isn't .


Anyway, I'll go off on a tangent and extend what you said . I've always thought that, assuming the technology was there in the game, that having Rangers clear a landing spot for Smugglers would be an awesome ability and method of introducing interdependancy (not to mention extremely cool to be able to land your ship! ). Of course anyone can be involved in criminal activity; indeed, the person that tips off the authorities can be a player, if they see an illicit dealings going on in the wild, or see a ship pop into existance near the planet where it shouldn't be, they could submit a report that, if the person/ship is in the middle of a Smuggler mission sends in NPCs after them, receiving a small reward if the player is taken out.

There are many ways to branch out Smuggling so that it enriches the rest of the game, it just requires development, in some cases too much to warrant anything other than an expansion I fear .

also speaking as a ranger,

We get a lot of similar posts on the ranger boards, someone surely comes along and says, well we've been promised U, V, and W, and we DESERVE U, V, W, X, Y, and Z! Maybe so, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who disagrees with the idea of profession improvements especially for smugglers. But the fact is that posting negativity does not endear anyone to your cause. The best you can do when it comes to the developers is to post ideas for improvements, whether its how to get started in the direction like Tralita (sp? sorry shooting from the hip here), or whether its about the end game of the system, what the most ultimate of the system might end up looking like, such as things I tend to post. If you dont like the ideas posted, thats fine, come up with your own solution and let others have a chance at submitting their opinion, you'll find that achieving an idea that everyone buys into isn't as easy as we'd all like to think.

Message Edited by ZalokOnan on 08-12-2005 03:49 PM

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ZalokOnan wrote:

also speaking as a ranger,

We get a lot of similar posts on the ranger boards, someone surely comes along and says, well we've been promised U, V, and W, and we DESERVE U, V, W, X, Y, and Z! Maybe so, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who disagrees with the idea of profession improvements especially for smugglers. But the fact is that posting negativity does not endear anyone to your cause. The best you can do when it comes to the developers is to post ideas for improvements, whether its how to get started in the direction like TRALITA (sp? sorry shooting from the hip here), or whether its about the end game of the system, what the most ultimate of the system might end up looking like, such as things I tend to post. If you dont like the ideas posted, thats fine, come up with your own solution and let others have a chance at submitting their opinion, you'll find that achieving an idea that everyone buys into isn't as easy as we'd all like to think.

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QFE