Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband & Smuggling Missions
DRWolfe
Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:34 am
#898
I seriously hope GM can come into this thread and pick the good, productive suggestion posts out of all the fighting and flaming. He has so little time outside his assigned projects, and he's generously dedicating that to us, and I wouldn't blame him if he gets a little ways into the thing and throws his hands up in disgust. This thing has over 800 posts in it, and I bet 2/3 of them are nothing but fighting and flaming. I don't mind a discussion, but I think this one went way overboard real quick. I hate to even give a suggestion, because of the fighting and flaming I'll get in return, or maybe it'll just be ignored. Still, I can take it so here it goes.
How about we move the PvE vs. PvP discussion to another thread? This one has quite enough of that for GM and everyone else to get an idea of the opinions of both sides. Let's keep the rest of this thread for suggestions and comments so we can help GM's efforts rather than hinder them with more debate posts to weed through.
How about we move the PvE vs. PvP discussion to another thread? This one has quite enough of that for GM and everyone else to get an idea of the opinions of both sides. Let's keep the rest of this thread for suggestions and comments so we can help GM's efforts rather than hinder them with more debate posts to weed through.
SpaceCrazy
Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:35 am
#899
I haven't read every post in this thread, because there are far too many that are simply people arguing (not discussing, arguing) back and forth. From what I HAVE read, I'm seeing some people are getting too overly excited about being inconvenienced at getting scanned constantly or always having to find a smuggler whenever you want to travel anywhere. Let's take a closer look at this, starting with the current contraband system.
Currently, you run the risk of getting scanned in Kadaara, Kor Vella, and Mos Espa, and by wandering groups of stormtroopers out in the wilderness. It isn't all that difficult to avoid getting scanned at all. You just have to avoid those cities. Getting to locations that are near those cities may add a few minutes travel by bike or by a shuttle from another city to a player city. But overall, right now, you can easily avoid scans.
From GreenMarine's initial post:
>>Contraband scan frequency will be somewhat increased. Scan bottlenecks will be introduced >>at various locations in major cities, such as starport entries and medical centers.
So we may see some more scans and in a few more places. No where was it mentioned getting scanned at every single starport in the game. Want to go hunting on Dathomir without worrying about a scan? Go to Dath from Tyrena or Doaba Guerfel instead of Coronet. Unlikely to be scans at other Corellian cities, and definitely not on Dathomir. After all, the only "major cities" I think of are Theed, Coronet, and perhaps Bestine. I avoid Coronet as much as possible now, simply because of the lag.
I can hear the objection that Coronet is about the only place to find buffs unless you know a doc, and that's true. But if Coronet becomes a city that gets scanned, perhaps players will start using other cities to avoid the scans, and some docs will end up there as well. Getting people out of Coronet and Theed and into other cities (currently ghost towns) would be a good thing.
Another issue I've seen issues with is the possibility of forced PVP, which most will agree is not good. Again, from GreenMarine's post:
>>The game's "visibility" system will be expanded. Any player can now accumulate small >>amounts of visibility for a contraband infraction. The amount of visibility will be >>dependent on the severity of the infraction.
Please note he said "small" amounts of visibility. It's not going to be that you get caught once with a sliced weapon and you'll show up on the BH terminals. I would guess that you'd have to get scanned and caught ALOT before your visibility gets high enough to get a bounty placed on your head. Since you can avoid getting scanned most times, you are not always going to get scanned even when travelling to a city with stormtroopers, and even if you do get scanned, you are not necessarily going to get caught, I'd say most players will go a very very long time without ever getting tracked by a bounty hunter, even if they always have their sliced armor, weapons, and spices with them.
Will these proposed changes cause some people to modify how they play? Yes, it will, a bit. But I doubt it will be a major change. Perhaps they avoid certain cities where scans are prevelant, or find a smuggler to group with when they have to go to those cities. But people will not stop getting their armor and weapons sliced and will not stop using spices because of this revamp any more than they did when the contraband system was first introduced.
Currently, you run the risk of getting scanned in Kadaara, Kor Vella, and Mos Espa, and by wandering groups of stormtroopers out in the wilderness. It isn't all that difficult to avoid getting scanned at all. You just have to avoid those cities. Getting to locations that are near those cities may add a few minutes travel by bike or by a shuttle from another city to a player city. But overall, right now, you can easily avoid scans.
From GreenMarine's initial post:
>>Contraband scan frequency will be somewhat increased. Scan bottlenecks will be introduced >>at various locations in major cities, such as starport entries and medical centers.
So we may see some more scans and in a few more places. No where was it mentioned getting scanned at every single starport in the game. Want to go hunting on Dathomir without worrying about a scan? Go to Dath from Tyrena or Doaba Guerfel instead of Coronet. Unlikely to be scans at other Corellian cities, and definitely not on Dathomir. After all, the only "major cities" I think of are Theed, Coronet, and perhaps Bestine. I avoid Coronet as much as possible now, simply because of the lag.
I can hear the objection that Coronet is about the only place to find buffs unless you know a doc, and that's true. But if Coronet becomes a city that gets scanned, perhaps players will start using other cities to avoid the scans, and some docs will end up there as well. Getting people out of Coronet and Theed and into other cities (currently ghost towns) would be a good thing.
Another issue I've seen issues with is the possibility of forced PVP, which most will agree is not good. Again, from GreenMarine's post:
>>The game's "visibility" system will be expanded. Any player can now accumulate small >>amounts of visibility for a contraband infraction. The amount of visibility will be >>dependent on the severity of the infraction.
Please note he said "small" amounts of visibility. It's not going to be that you get caught once with a sliced weapon and you'll show up on the BH terminals. I would guess that you'd have to get scanned and caught ALOT before your visibility gets high enough to get a bounty placed on your head. Since you can avoid getting scanned most times, you are not always going to get scanned even when travelling to a city with stormtroopers, and even if you do get scanned, you are not necessarily going to get caught, I'd say most players will go a very very long time without ever getting tracked by a bounty hunter, even if they always have their sliced armor, weapons, and spices with them.
Will these proposed changes cause some people to modify how they play? Yes, it will, a bit. But I doubt it will be a major change. Perhaps they avoid certain cities where scans are prevelant, or find a smuggler to group with when they have to go to those cities. But people will not stop getting their armor and weapons sliced and will not stop using spices because of this revamp any more than they did when the contraband system was first introduced.
Rueger_Karde
Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:37 am
#900
I have already stopped for that reason, I needed to stop earlier, thats my fault.
However I do think these issues are important. And its not 2/3 of it flames. Sure there are some dummys called and some high school jabs, but most of it is real arguments that need to be heard.
I am eagerly waiting for GM's post here though, to see what he makes of this debacle. 
Reaper2099
Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:39 am
#901
With regards to BabyRancor's post:
Items will now have a range of legality. The following legal ranges will be implemented.
Currently scans are the province of the Empire - stormtroopers conduct scans. If this remains the same how do neutrals fit into this scheme? They cannot (and should not) be attacked. I suppose the scan teams could be CorSec or other non-Imperial forces enforcing the Emperor's decrees.
Must it always be attacks? What about a bribe option based on the level of the offense.
If this is to work - the current immunity of items in droid storage compartments needs to be removed too. With those compartments everyone is functionally a smuggler with a perfect chance of avoiding a scan.
How would the idea of Smugglers making special droid smuggling compartments sound? Or perhaps some sort of container that is a one time use that someone could buy and store a small number of items in. Don't give it a 100% chance of succeeding since there should always be a small chance of something going wrong
SBRD0C
Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:40 am
#902
DRWolfe wrote: How about we move the PvE vs. PvP discussion to another thread? This one has quite enough of that for GM and everyone else to get an idea of the opinions of both sides. Let's keep the rest of this thread for suggestions and comments so we can help GM's efforts rather than hinder them with more debate posts to weed through.
Such a thread does exist here is the link:
PvE/PvP thread
Smuggler_Caylin
Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:42 am
#903
Ternque01 wrote:
If you choose to break the law, you are a criminal. It's that simple. To be sure the real issue here is not what is the law from who's perspective. That is not in the equation however interesting you make your post. At this point in time in the Star Wars universe any power that exists be it Imperial, Rebel, or local law enforcement views these items as contraband. No matter which of these three powers you claim allegiance to, the other two will declare your actions illegal and will do what is in their power to reprimand you. This is regardless as if your party views your actions like a hero.
....
Who's law? The law of a fascist dictator who delights in the torturing of others? His laws do not apply to me, I don't recognize them as laws, nor do I have anything to do with them. If I play poker in a public area where I am now, I am considered a criminal in other places of the world. Think on that for a bit.
If a US trooper kills a fellow who he suspects to be a terrorist, who is the criminal? That guy is still dead and depending on whose rules you follow that trooper is either a criminal or a hero. You are operating from only one perspective.
Robin Hood was called a criminal, but perceived as a hero for those he helped.
Almost anything you do can be breaking a law somewhere else. We don't however believe that we are criminals though their law says differently. Smuggling is not just about spice and weapons. It is also about food, clothing and raw materials. Every item that is destined for one faction or another is subject to the searching and confiscation of the opposing side, regardless of it's use. You are aiding the enemy by trying to get items through to them.
So no, I am notnecessarily a criminal when I smuggle something.
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse! 
Smuggler_Caylin
Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:44 am
#904
I was not, but you did say that the BH community in reference to the whole of it, would be upset by the idea of NPC bounty hunters. I disagreed.
Ternque01 wrote:
First of all, I completely understand that many PvE'ers want absolutely zilch to do with PvP. I was not addressing the issue that you are describing to any degree at all. If you go back up and read my post. I reprimanded the guy I quoted for hastily generalizing that all pvp'ers are not roleplayers. I see you say the same thing yourself. This is a stereotype, and I don't appreciate it being put upon me. No thank you.
Perhaps you'll read my many posts which do desparately attemp to find solutions for PvE'ers while at the same time maintaining the "bite" of this contraband system. I have shown alot of respect for them, as I've done nothing in the past few days but think of ways to fix their problem. Don't assume otherwise.
To be sure I'm not really sure what you are refering to in your post above. Please note my many recent posts to institute smuggler missions that are of lower risk and make it easy for a PvE smuggler to remain off the terminals. Same smuggler xp, lower visibility risk. Whew! I hope you weren't incinuating that I have no respect for the PvE'er. I have respect for the law (that I will break), nothing more nothing less.
Master_Jaydawg
Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:45 am
#905
First off I have to say WOW this sounds great GreenMarine!
Questions:
-You said old sliced items such as weapons and armor would be given the illegality as banned, so is there a plan to change something in the slicing weapons and armor that makes them different illegality levels after the revamp (this only pertains to the act of slicing armor and weapons after the smuggler revamp is in so for example would it be possible to slice somethign and have it only be considered quasi legal or do something drastic to the item and have it be highly illegal)?
-With the smuggler being able to slice the BH terminal to view or reduce someones visibility it was stated that if the smuggler fails slicing he/she automatically ends up on the terminal. Now will the smuggler be able to slice the terminal again immediately and remove themselves from the terminal or are they permnanently stuck on there untill a bh mission on them is either fullfilled or failed?
-Will slicing bh terminals be like a miniature puzzle/game? Will we see this type of slicing implemented elsewhere in the game?
-Will other underworld bosses include the likes of Borvo, the Lady Hutt, maybe a Blacksun Vigo?
-Will Rebels and Imperials also offer smuggling missions?
-Will there be some type of notification to let a smuggler know how much visibility if any they will gain from skimming from a cargo or payment? Ex. You go to take half the cargo for yourself and your character has a thought bubble "Hmm.. Jabba's not gonna like this."
-Would it be possible to try and get more credits out of whoever your delivering cargo to either by persuasion or threatening? This could result in them deciding they don't want it after all and then you might have to pay jabba out of your own pocket at least if you chose to threaten the buyer.
Comments:
-I do like the suggestion of being fined for quasi legal items when you are caught but if you refuse to pay then you have to fight.
-The expansion of the visibility system i think would be a leap forward for the entire game it would definitely spice things up.
-I always did like how when entering a cantina when the imperial crackdown was put in game would randomly spawn a stormtrooper who came in and scanned everybody in there i would hope this type of scanning continues although i haven't seen it happen in a long time (might be broke)
-The bottlenecks for scans sound great
-The idea of skimming from your missions for profit sounds like fun.
Ideas:
-A major thing i would like to see added for smuggler missions are dynamic missions. I think this would be very possible and it would help bring to life some places a bit more. How it could work: Ok you know how the game spawns stormtroopers to scan a cantina randomly for people that enter.. well it would be interesting if you walked into a cantina to get healed and an npc comes in and approached you with a job much like Obi Wan did in Star Wars Ep IV. The same type of thing could be done for places like Jabba's palace one of Jabba's lackeys could stop you on your way in and offer you a job or try and work out some type of deal with you to screw jabba on a job. This could make for some very interesting gameplay and they Dynamic content is easier for people to notice in places such as cantinas or Jabba's palace.
-It would be interesting if a group of thugs who work for someone who is opposed to who you are doing a mission for stopped you and made some type of demands either about your cargo/credits, or just want to kill you.
Overall this revamp sounds great and makes me want to go back to smuggling even more. =)
Daker-Naritus
Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:50 am
#906
Nura wrote:
question for the PvE side: what can we change to make u happy beside removing PvP? paying fees? paying smuggs to change someones visibility? paying NPCs to change it? implement non scanable backpacks? making SQL, Smuggs and rangers abe to hide contrband stuff for teh whole team?
My main problem is that the plan assumes that people will continue using spices and slices to give the smugglers something to smuggle. This results in either: (1) people continuing use spices and slices and being forced to PvP, or (2) people stopping using slices and spices to avoid the PvP. Smugglers only market for spices and sliced items would be the VERY SMALL group of individuals who (1) want to constantly pvp; (2) don't care about wasting time searching for a smuggler to escort them around; (3) don't care about the inconvience of ALWAYS having a smuggler present whenever they want to use spices or sliced equipment. So, not only would it ruin the spice.slice market, but it would also provide nothing to smuggle after the market is ruined.
The solution I proposed earier (that everyone ignored) is to pick a different item for smugglers to smuggle: Factory Crates. Smugglers are supposed to be moving goods for people...they are not individuals armor/gun caddies. I will repeat theidea for your consideration:
Ok for those of you still reading this, I had a brainstorm today....see what you think of this:
As I have said (and repeat only briefly here) there are 2 major problems with this smuggling system as proposed:
(1) No PC Smuggling -[Paraphrase: If people are discouraged from using spices and slices, no market for smuggling is created]
(2) It is just not right - The plan reduces smugglers to gun/armor caddies (yes as in golf caddies). Smugglers aren't smugging goods like they are supposed to be, they are carrying peoples guns and armor through customs for them. That is absolutely, positively stupid.
Ok so here is a brainstorm I had today. As I have often said, the contraband items under this system that are "highly illegal" need to be items that you will occassionally need to transport (NOT EVERY NIGHT LIKE GUNS AND ARMOR). The market for spices and slices needs to be preserved, AT THE SAME TIME as creating the need to hire a smuggler every once in a while (AGAIN NOT EVERY NIGHT) to help you. If all of the 33 other classes (comprising 95% of players) occassionally need a smuggler to help them, that would create more than enough of a market for the 5% of players that are smugglers.
What about this solution: Factory Crates. Make all factory crates contraband.
Now before you go crazy, hear me out on this.
Currently, all players have the ability to move mass quanties of goods in factory crates from planet to planet, without any interference from the empire, by putting factory crates in their backpacks/inventories. That is a job that should be left to smugglers.
There are only 3 times that players need factory crates: (1) storing goods in their houses or backpacks, (2) artisans moving goods to put on vendors, or (3) players moving goods they have already bought in bulk.
If you make factory crates contraband, it would have the following effects:
(1) Artisans - Artisans often have vendors on several planets, and often need to move mass quantities of goods between planets to stock those vendors. The only way to do this is in factory crates. If the crates are contraband, they will have to hire a smuggler a couple of times a week/month (whenever they restock vendors) to accompany them and assure them a safe passage.
(2) Consumers - Consumers of goods often buy then in bulk factory crates. Whenever that person bought a crate of something, they would have to hire a smuggler to help them get it to their house/bank (where they can remove a couple of items and go on their way). This would mean that all consumers of goods would probably need a smuggler a couple of times a month (every time they buy a factory crate of something).
This would also solve the problem of people running around with unlimited quantities of items in factory crates....the benefit of moving mass quantities of goods between planets should be a SMUGGLER ONLY skill, so ONLY smugglers can move around safely with factory crates.
The net result is that players often need smugglers (not every night, but often enough for there to be a market) to assure them safe passage from planet to planet (and elsewhere) when they are engaged in commerce. THAT is smugglers are supposed to be doing. This accomplishes PC smuggling activities without ruining the spice/slice market.
From a roleplay standpoint, it would work like this: The empire DOES NOT want people trading mass quantities of goods without their permission. To be able to trade goods, you have to have the blessing of the empire. So just like now...super high-ranking imperial players can go through the checkpoints with factory crates (maybe with a decent sized fine). Those imperial players essentially have the blessing of the empire to be engaged in commerce.
For everyone else, they CANNOT move crates of goods though starports without dying (they get attacked) unless they engage the services of a smuggler. They have to hire a smuggler to help them move the goods.
What do you think of that?
As I have said (and repeat only briefly here) there are 2 major problems with this smuggling system as proposed:
(1) No PC Smuggling -[Paraphrase: If people are discouraged from using spices and slices, no market for smuggling is created]
(2) It is just not right - The plan reduces smugglers to gun/armor caddies (yes as in golf caddies). Smugglers aren't smugging goods like they are supposed to be, they are carrying peoples guns and armor through customs for them. That is absolutely, positively stupid.
Ok so here is a brainstorm I had today. As I have often said, the contraband items under this system that are "highly illegal" need to be items that you will occassionally need to transport (NOT EVERY NIGHT LIKE GUNS AND ARMOR). The market for spices and slices needs to be preserved, AT THE SAME TIME as creating the need to hire a smuggler every once in a while (AGAIN NOT EVERY NIGHT) to help you. If all of the 33 other classes (comprising 95% of players) occassionally need a smuggler to help them, that would create more than enough of a market for the 5% of players that are smugglers.
What about this solution: Factory Crates. Make all factory crates contraband.
Now before you go crazy, hear me out on this.
Currently, all players have the ability to move mass quanties of goods in factory crates from planet to planet, without any interference from the empire, by putting factory crates in their backpacks/inventories. That is a job that should be left to smugglers.
There are only 3 times that players need factory crates: (1) storing goods in their houses or backpacks, (2) artisans moving goods to put on vendors, or (3) players moving goods they have already bought in bulk.
If you make factory crates contraband, it would have the following effects:
(1) Artisans - Artisans often have vendors on several planets, and often need to move mass quantities of goods between planets to stock those vendors. The only way to do this is in factory crates. If the crates are contraband, they will have to hire a smuggler a couple of times a week/month (whenever they restock vendors) to accompany them and assure them a safe passage.
(2) Consumers - Consumers of goods often buy then in bulk factory crates. Whenever that person bought a crate of something, they would have to hire a smuggler to help them get it to their house/bank (where they can remove a couple of items and go on their way). This would mean that all consumers of goods would probably need a smuggler a couple of times a month (every time they buy a factory crate of something).
This would also solve the problem of people running around with unlimited quantities of items in factory crates....the benefit of moving mass quantities of goods between planets should be a SMUGGLER ONLY skill, so ONLY smugglers can move around safely with factory crates.
The net result is that players often need smugglers (not every night, but often enough for there to be a market) to assure them safe passage from planet to planet (and elsewhere) when they are engaged in commerce. THAT is smugglers are supposed to be doing. This accomplishes PC smuggling activities without ruining the spice/slice market.
From a roleplay standpoint, it would work like this: The empire DOES NOT want people trading mass quantities of goods without their permission. To be able to trade goods, you have to have the blessing of the empire. So just like now...super high-ranking imperial players can go through the checkpoints with factory crates (maybe with a decent sized fine). Those imperial players essentially have the blessing of the empire to be engaged in commerce.
For everyone else, they CANNOT move crates of goods though starports without dying (they get attacked) unless they engage the services of a smuggler. They have to hire a smuggler to help them move the goods.
What do you think of that?
Rueger_Karde
Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:57 am
#907
Im sorry daker, but I dont think the system as proposed will stop people from wanting slicing and spice. There will be plenty of people wanting to push the envelope.
And I think your system is just not going to be as fun for smugglers as the proposed one.
Nura
Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:18 am
#908
@caylin
do i get u rigth that u dont want to involve any PvP into the may upcoming smuggler system?
so instead of real players u want some NPC BHs killign you?
i hope not cause you would completly fail your task as corrospondend. many people want this PvP stuff.
we need to find a compromise and not a overall change.
do i get u rigth that u dont want to involve any PvP into the may upcoming smuggler system?
so instead of real players u want some NPC BHs killign you?
i hope not cause you would completly fail your task as corrospondend. many people want this PvP stuff.
we need to find a compromise and not a overall change.
hootyhoo112
Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:31 am
#909
OMFGTernque01 you are my fav smuggler in the world... and if i were on your server and saw you on the terms i would tell you and leave it at that... just beacuse you know what this game is all about... hell, all the baby-ing the jedi are getting what to us BH's and Smugglers have left in the world... i would love a little cat and mouse. HELL hearing about this revamp saved my account... i was one click away from saying buh-bye SWG because of the lack of content for non-jedi players.but this is a nice wake up call as to how fun this game really is... and i am ashamed of your smuggler corespondant , to say that this proposed system would mean "Forced" PvP that is sad... "forced" PvP is the last thing the devs will ever impliment as it goes against all things holy in MMORPGs and the fact that people playing this game need toown up to the fact that when you mess with illegal goods you have totake some damn responsibility for once in their lives and realize that they have broken the ingame laws and are now on a wanted list...from your response i can only hope that we can get some quality substance in terms of REAL smuggling, and REAL bounty hunting... that would be the **edit**.... in fact i would encourage my friends to go smuggler justcause when we are bored we can have some real fun, him on the run, i on the chase.
All i can say is great post man, GREAT post!
SBRD0C
Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:47 am
#910
Nura wrote:
@caylin
do i get u rigth that u dont want to involve any PvP into the may upcoming smuggler system?
so instead of real players u want some NPC BHs killign you?
i hope not cause you would completly fail your task as corrospondend. many people want this PvP stuff.
we need to find a compromise and not a overall change.
Caylin is doing precisely what his job as correspondant requires of him: Representing the views of all of us.
He has not argued that PvP be totally taken out, he knows most of us want it, currently he is trying to represent those smugglers that don't want to be 'forced' into PvP. But trust me, I've seen him relay Ideas that he has personally hated because elements in the community supported them. When it comes to it, he will suggest to the devs whatever seems most important to us as he has always done.