Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband & Smuggling Missions
RellikCro wrote:
GuntherSlag wrote:
RellikCro wrote:
GuntherSlag wrote:
No one has answered the question. Are you willing to sacrifice part of our revamp to include these NPC Bounty Hunters?
I do not see how anything would have to be sacraficed, all the posts I have read and/or commented on have been very supportive of the proposal in all areas cept for the PvP consequence section.
I'm talking about programming. It will take an incredible amount of developer time to code two seperate systems. Especially one that is npc controlled. Why do you think they ditched the idea of high level npc's showing up to fight jedi?
Remember when jedi bounties first came out? Well they still don't work like they're supposed to. That's been months of them trying to fix it but not being able to. What GreenMarine is proposing is using an extension of that system. Not making a new one. He figures they'll have the bugs finally worked out by then so they can include the entire player base. This has always been a concept the devs have been interested in. It is called the Death Mark system. It's been here since day one of beta and the devs still planned on putting it in the last time the correspondent asked. (Fan Fest I believe)
Simply put if you want this system of duel BH types then you are going to have to sacrifice part of the revamp. They just don't have the developer time to do both. What you are asking for is far too complicated to be added as a single feature. Ask GreenMarine and I bet he'll tell you the same thing. If they can put it in without harming the revamp fine. But I have witnessed first hand how hard this system is to code already and don't forsee it getting any easier. So I ask the question again.
If given two choices, which would you prefer. Duel BH system and a watered down revamp? Or revamp as our developer envisioned. Please just answer one or the other as this is hypothetical. Thanks.Sure, it might take more programming... but that is what the devs get paid for. With the upcoming combat revamp we are not even sure how we are going to stack up against NPC mobs, this whole situation about special programing for for high end mobs might be mute, but again that is not for us to worry about. There were and still are alot of "unfinished" systems in the game that were put off for higher priorty tasks and I am sure the Jedi NPC BH was one of them. If they did not even plan to have Jedi in the game for a year (which is what I believe was an eta at onetime) then it was a system easily pushed back for a later time in favor of something that was going out in the initial publish.
We need to concern ourselves with a revamp that suits and pleases the majority of us and let the devs figure out a way to make it possible. When I have a house built I dont worry about how to construct it, not my job. I let them know what I want, how I want it to look and then trust that they are capable of doing it. We need to trust our devs, I hear they are very bright, intelligent, and forward thinking staff.
You still didn't answer my question.
I said it was hypothetical. That means it's not a question open for more debate. If you don't want to answer it just say so. But the failure to answer means you don't like question. If you don't like the question then maybe you should examine why. All the analogies in the world can't save you from the reality of this fact. There is limited developer time for Smuggler. EVERYONE is broken and needs a revamp. GreenMarine is trying to get us as much as he can within the framework of the current system. Altering it to the degree that you ask will put the rest of the revamp in jeopardy and delay the revamps for everyone else. You say you trust the devs, then do it.
GuntherSlag wrote:
You still didn't answer my question.
I said it was hypothetical. That means it's not a question open for more debate. If you don't want to answer it just say so. But the failure to answer means you don't like question. If you don't like the question then maybe you should examine why. All the analogies in the world can't save you from the reality of this fact. There is limited developer time for Smuggler. EVERYONE is broken and needs a revamp. GreenMarine is trying to get us as much as he can within the framework of the current system. Altering it to the degree that you ask will put the rest of the revamp in jeopardy and delay the revamps for everyone else. You say you trust the devs, then do it.
Ternque01 wrote:
You talk abouthow our professionrequires PvP in this situation,what does PvP require? (The answer is making unethical choices and not managing your visibility)
I thought I said 'should not require' ? At any rate, PVP in this proposal comes as a consequence the moment the player chooses to accept a smuggler mission. Any mission.
I wasn't addressing PvP here, I was addressing RP.
I was addressing the RP in PvP *shrug*
I see this point of view, but I have a secret worry that it will be to complicated to code. On top of spices, on top of slices, on top of dirty fighting, and on top of fixing a million and one different items in our profession, I will straight up tell you that I fear that if one of these items gets the axe it will be a contraband system actually worth something.
I don't know if it would be too complicated, but it probably would be time consuming. They have alot of time now so I won't be cutting much slack.
Missions lead to visibility..
Smuggler with visibility leads to other smuggler getting paid to get rid of visibility...
Paymentleads to bar withrancid booze and Twi'lek dancers......
Exactly, all the missions lead to visibility. It leaves no room for smugglers who want a purely PVE mission option without a PVP consequence. For instance, lets look at Underworld. What we have here is a tree that is basically worthless for anyone who does not participate in the GCW. That really bites and it's one of our major issues.
Now we are making all slices and spices illegal (As they should be) yet smugglers who have the ability to slice and spice, will find that now THREE trees as opposed to two are now unavailable for them to make use of to a large extent. That isn't fair to them anymore than it is fair to those who didn't want to participate in the GCW having the Underworld skill tree.
I have no problem with me having to pay another smuggler to get me off the terminal (Should I ever wish to be off the terminal. I love a good fight) but players who have no interest in pvp, who are finding themselves forced to take missions (As missions will likely be required to progress in the skill trees) are having to spend extra money and time to keep themselves off. Meanwhile, I'm tipping those Twi'lek dancers just praying for some stupid BH to walk in and see me.
My playstyle is unaffected, theirs is drastically changed. They will have to take time out of their play and spend their resourcesto make sure some player BH isn't going to come along and pop a cap in their skull when they had no option to avoid it when they are progressing up the skill tree. That's not fair to them.
I see your point, but how hard is your idea to code??? Your ideas are at time very complex. Designing them and debugging them might prove to be more of a chore than the simple idea GM has.
I play with software eng. in college and in my head it isn't any harder than their current missions they have now. Special NPC's with conversation options... they have alot they can do and none of it is spectacularly complex to my understanding.
I"m not going to go into this, smugglers have the choices and tools available to change the situation. It is no less hard for them to do this, it is their job. Even smugglers who dig PvP aren't going to want a BH coming after them at every damn waking moment. They will use the same tools that PvE smugglers use. We are knee deep in the law, we should have to know and be capable of bailing ourselves out.
Speak for yourself. I count no day as lived unless I have loved a woman, slain a foeman, and eaten a fine meal... and the days that I have lived are as numberless as the stars in the sky. I makeslaughter a thing of beauty and many a tumbler and dancer has wept that they might be a half so quick, a quarter so graceful. I would tell you the names of all the men I have slain, but before I could finishthe gungans would have evolved into an intelligent life formand the seasons would come and go and come again... (/sets aside a book he is reading)
At any rate, it's not a question of tools, it's a question of how they are being forced to alter their gameplay to prevent something that they have no interest in participating in.
Hmmmm maybe i'd take them a little easier, lol
BAH!
I see a direct link to doing smuggler missions and raising visibility. I see your concern that this will be so annoying that you don't want anything to do with it. I will further recognize that this concern is raised by the vagueness of statements made in GreenMarine's post. It is both unfortunate and *insert something bad becuase i'm too tired to think right now* that such broad, sweeping statements don't clarify things. I accept that, because i'd rather be japping my jaw about this stuff confused than to have absolutely no clue. I can almost see why developers keep things private until the need to be revealed.
I'm glad for the discussion this has called for and for the chance that we can point out and address any concerns we see. Though the statements are broad it leaves us room to get things where we want them.
Again I see your point, but what you're telling me is that you want both PvE consequences and not having the experience of being able to see who's after you and have an active say in who knows what about you. This hits the big lame button on me, but if you like it, cool. I don't see how this would be fun at all. I stand by my point that a smuggler should have the tools to check who is after him by slicing. This is incredibly cool, and quite frankly I don't see how you can be annoyed with this if it is given that you can control a form of NPC visibility to tone down NPC BH's.
Uhm you have seen my revamp proposal. I want to know who is after me. However, those who don't even want to PVP should not have to worry about this at all as they are skilling up smuggler and taking smuggler missions that should not have a pvp consequence involved.
Let me ask you one question. If PvE'ers have a NPC BH come for them, would you like them to have the ability to check their NPC visibility and alter it according to their wishes? If you answer no, I respect your answer, but I will also inform you that there have been very little complaints on this feature in this thread. There are complaints about having to keep track of a PC visibility meter, when all they care about is PvE. You still owe it to me to admit that a smuggler should be careful and always make sure he is "clear" of the awareness of authorities. I don't care if you never tell it to my face, but that's what a smuggler does, and there have been zero complains on this feature, and i'd like it to be represented to the devs that way.
For me, NPC BH could be easily based on the pointless faction system we have today. Lets say you have -4000 jabba faction. You take a smuggler mission, botch it, and your jabba faction drops to -4500. At the moment this happens the system could check just how much faction you have and make a random roll as to whether or not Jabba puts a hit out on you. 'You have failed me too often Ternque! Face my wrath!' - In some email or another, an elapsed time later at one point or another, you face his wrath. Not terribly complex, they can just as easily have the checks for the NPC BH to spawn at the same spots they would see if you trigger a scan or NPC patrol.
They want to get on his good side, they need to kill some valarians or something and work that faction up again. That or maybe buy it from a jabba faction representative, which I've also outlined in the past.
Monitor the faction you have and you can easily see what type of standing you have with the person you are working for. That is, however, just my interpretation of how it could be done using existing mechanics or ones they say they can add.
I see no need for them ever needing to touch a bh terminal.
Also, I've already told you I agreed that smugglers should be careful, but we can't just focus on the pvp repercussions. I don't see why you even bring it up.
The thinking has been done. A part of a smugglers job is keeping his tail clean and out of traps. If NPC bounty hunters are assigned, I'm sure PvE smugglers will love being able to adjust their NPC visibility. It is good game design, but monitoring a PC visibility chart can be seen as annoying to someone who doesn't care for it. That much I see of your point. Perhaps if you have the ability to play with your visibility from a NPC standpoint the "appeal" will be more clear. I would like to point out that the adjusting and monitoring of visibility is widely liked around here (if it is weeded out of people not wanting to monitor a PvP meter for a PvE flavored player), and I for one would be very very sore if it was somehow not included in the revamp. It is a wonderful idea, better than I've seen alot of ideas thrown around here. A visibility system is needed for BH's of anykind to come for us. Making money off of slicing computer terminals and "adjusting" it is too good an idea to lay aside like a bag of moldy tangerines.
If they need a NPC visibility system to manipulate over using the existing faction system, sure. Let them manipulate it it's not skin off anyones back. Just don't force them to have to deal with PVP visibility.
I emplore you, keep fighting for what you want, I'm sure you will, have a good night
You too, and I've never stopped fighting. I never will.
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse! 
/mood salivating
/brownnose on;
First let me iterate (from a game developers point of view) that Green Marines concept is the most perfectly formulated, complete system I have seen on the boards to date. I can’t imagine any player who could have put together a better summation of the core wants of the community in a much better way, while maintaining teachnical feasability. This is my opinion of course. (I have been developing for 12 years professionaly, some which was on a 3d game engine.) Great job GM! If this system were passed in its initial design concept alone I think it would solve most of the issues.
/brownnose off;
/mountPreachingPulpit;
One thing SOE needs to understand GM, is that concepts and ideas like this are not going to just appease the smuggler community. Ideas like this are what would make the difference between SWG becoming the biggest and baddest monopolizers of the MMORPG genre for a decade or having it crash and burn every time the next new title hits the shelves. A little investment in quality and taking the extra time to harness the ideas of the community, which you have done is gonna pay off in a HUGE way. There is no way worthless perks and temporary fads will consistenly make up for an overall lack of quality in the core systems.
/dismountPreachingPulpit;
/idealight on;
My intention is not to add new funtionality to the design doc, but to shift some things around. As players, we are probably more familiar with some of the bugs and exploits of the system, so we think of some things from a testers point of view.
Firstly, if you have mug spawns during NPC smuggling missions, have them pull you off your bike like ST NPC’s do when scanned. I was once pulled off my bike at full speed and scanned by ST’s and it was very effective. One thing that could be done, is to add have the code pull you off the bike first, and then have the NPC’s spawn like 40m away heading toward you.
Secondly, I would suggest that you allow the local security forces to assist the imperials with some of the workload. For example, in Naboo have RSF’s help implement scans. The RSF’s will not fear imperials because of rank and this will give the imps some of the same content the rebels now enjoy.
An idea is to have Imperial blockades upon entry and exit the city, but have local security officers inside the starports and near the shuttleports. By utilizing local security (RSF’s in Naboo and Corsec in corellia) you can have enforcement without making starports a PVP camping fest. People will want to avoid attacking the Corsec so they do not get negative faciton and have to fight everytime they need to catch a shuttle. The local security forces should be placed at the doorways to the main starport bay, but not too close to the ticket droids. Perhaps players could grouping with a smuggler to decrease likelyhood of being scanned or make it so the NPC’s to focus on the smuggler rather than the customer.
I would also consider adding some things like invulnerable sniping towers (or turrets) and upping the spawn frequency of NPCs, etc so that people don’t just kill all the NPC’s off all the time.
I think the spice idea is "right on". I heard that the combat revamp may be replacing the secondaries with some sort of hidden pool similar to the Jedi "force bar" which will be used to balance the profesisons. This is a wonderful idea. I think smugglers could find some of their niche by having spices affect this bar. For example, one type of spice might lengthen the bar, allowing someone to get in a few more special attacks in per round, another spice type might cause the bar to regenerate faster, allowing them to get back into battle faster, whereas another spice might allow someone gain a dramatic increase in hitpoints while draining the bar completely which would be targetted to non-combatants or people wishing to avoid combat. Whatever the effect, I think it is important that spices do not allow people to spam specials all day, since this is what contributed largely to combat unbalance in the first place.
I also think that people should be able to use spices "in chain" if they took a new spice, say within 1 minute before the downer. The new spice would replace the effects of the old spice. However once they do hit the downer they will have an accumulated downtime suffering effects of all the spices they took (maxing at 25 minutes say). This would add to the "addictive" concept of spice.
/idealight off;
Rockweaver wrote:
Ipseck wrote:
hmm.. maybe because I pvp I griefed him and abusded him so he /addignored me... cuz he sure doesn't seem to be seeing any of my posts.
Yep thats me, abusded. lol
You are no righter than I am, the fact is, the current layout sides with you, instead of in between.
This is not a compromise, when it needs to be. Sony will have us leaving the game if they force PVP onto us, you might not care, but they do. There needs to be a ballance.
heh, you're still on the 2-sided argument thing. Doesn't look like i'll be able to convince you that dying to a player is exactly like dying to an npc, but without decay. Its the same thing. there is no balancing to do. its all one game. The only side I'm on is the one that brings us, and other players content, player interaction, and player inter-dependancy.
I dunno about you, but I play an online game so that I can interact with everyone, no matter their personality, not so that I can avoid as many as possible and insulate myself from everything.
ps. have you ever pvp'ed?
Message Edited by Ipseck on 06-18-2004 12:08 PM
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 06-18-2004 02:16 PM
Ternque01 wrote:
**Dying from a PC BH** **take one**
Hercele the PC BH fires bolts from his LLC dropping **player** to the ground.
"Ha Ha, you suck n00b!," Hercele says!
**player** cries in the cloning tube.
**Dying from a NPC BH** **take one**
Ampercla the NPC BH fires bolts from his LLC dropping **player** to the ground.
"Ha Ha, you suck n00b!," says a bystander.
**player** cries in the cloning tube with 1% decay.
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 06-18-2004 02:16 PM
LOL, Good point, can't ever avoid the immature.
question for the PvE side: what can we change to make u happy beside removing PvP? paying fees? paying smuggs to change someones visibility? paying NPCs to change it? implement non scanable backpacks? making SQL, Smuggs and rangers abe to hide contrband stuff for teh whole team?
question for the PvP side: what can we do to make u happy beside a must have PvP option? spawn extrem deadly mobs? paying fines if not then they attack to? NPC BHs? shuttle restrictions? changing the contraband system at all?
we have RP people, we have plain PvE people, we have PvP people and we have teh poor BH's who never get their promised player bounties. so make suggestions and help this game to become better instead of flaming everything and erveryone.
and it looks like we're gonna get it \o/
**Dying from a NPC BH** **take one**
Ampercla the NPC BH fires bolts from his LLC dropping **player** to the ground.
"Ha Ha, you suck n00b!," says a bystander.
**player** cries in the cloning tube with 1% decay.
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 06-18-2004 02:16 PM
can u dealwith a lamer, who was fully buffed and full of drugs and food, killed you, totaly unbuffed, no food at all?
cant u stay over that or do u realy listen to a 13 year old guy who doesnt even has hairs on his balls?