Smuggler Archive
Thread: The CU looks REALLY cool!!!
FinderComnet
Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:53 am
#79
Bah my math was wrong, sorry, the health with buffs would not be 2700 but 2800.
FinderComnet wrote:
Now saying that, my idea is rather moot with the fact there is the 10% long term buff andup to a 30% short term buff (with good BE enhancers) that doctors are able to give on the field. Meaning somone with a hybrid class and a base health of 2000 on a team with a doc can get their health up to 2700 (not including spices and food). Mix that with being bumped up to CL 80 when teamed, this makes them viable in the GCWand will also allow themthe ability to play inhigh level content such as the DWB. In other words, I made a mistake on posting this idea without full knowledge of what was available in the new CUand now humble pull the idea because what the Devs came up with is far better and more balanced.
As I play in the CU, I find more and more interesting things that truely support and actually defeat what most of the complaints are.... the problem is, since its a new system, we actually have to find them.
FinderComnet
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:19 am
#80
Geesh, I learn something new every few moments. Apparently the buff percentages are not based off of the players health but off a max CL80 combatant. So the buffs that Doctors can do is 300 for long term buff and 1000 (with good BE enhacers) for a short term buff. So thisgives a hybrid combatant/crafter a health of 3300; the same amount of health that a maxed out combatant with only a longterm buff would have. Easily making him viable,if in a group, for both the GCW andhigh end content such as the DBW. Now add in the 600 health buff that Pixie gives and food buffs...Interesting.
I am liking how this plays out more and more.
HOTDOG
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:27 am
#81
Nice work Finder- Thanks.
I'm sure we will find more hidden solutions as we go.
I'm hoping to hear the one for the "root" problem soon. I'm already fearing that melee profs will lobby to get that ability nerfed.
SpinningCloud
Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:14 am
#82
OK, so what you're telling me is my Dancer/TKM will be BACK to having to have buffs to be competitive?
I thought we were getting RID of our dependency on bufs? That THAT was one of the great feats that CU would accomplish? Bleh.
Attichutcuk
Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:42 am
#83
riotcontrol wrote:
HOTDOG wrote:
This is a good thing- A needed thing.
Let's /bug the parts that don't work but enjoy the good stuff too, man.
There is nothing, and I mean nothing good or about giving all the mobs level defense and attack modifiers that make only fights with a specific level mob 'challenging'. I'm not buying it. Sorry. SWG had a gameworld filled with variety where each mob and NPC had its own stats and you could defeat them by tactics instead of being higher level than them. This is just dumb.
man they gotta make a seperate forum for you complainers....you guys never shut up.... 
FinderComnet
Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:04 am
#84
Ok, after playing around with Doc buffs, my initial assessment of 2800 was correct. Sorry for the missinformation.
HOTDOG
Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:21 am
#85
SpinningCloud wrote:
OK, so what you're telling me is my Dancer/TKM will be BACK to having to have buffs to be competitive?
I thought we were getting RID of our dependency on bufs? That THAT was one of the great feats that CU would accomplish? Bleh.
I actually think that the buff system is acceptable.
If you are a Dancer/TKM and want to PvP with someone who has devoted all their SP to combat you SHOULD need to buff to that potential.
In the old buff system- I needed buffs to put on my armor. If I fought without buffs I would kill myself before my target would.
This is DEFINITELY better.
SpinningCloud
Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:36 am
#86
FinderComnet; "Yet here you prove that you want your cake and eat it too."
My mother used to use that trite little saying with me when I was a kid.
My standard reply was, and still is; "Why would I want cake I can't eat?"
I think many of you have been arguing that we MUST have this great CU so that we aren't all obligated to buf to be COMPETITIVE in combat. Note I did not say 'effective' since we ALL were perfectly effective.
Yet here you are saying that to be competitive and even effective it's perfectly reasonable for you to have to buf.
And as far as a Dancer/TKM profession goes the ONLY thing I've complained about is how ONLY combat related professions get health adjustments. Funny though that a Dancer is way more often in great physical condition than a DOCTOR.
All I ask is that health not SOLELY be based on combat RELATED professions. I have NO problem with pitting my Dancers single elite combat profession with those that have two. It's the health issue that is not right.
As for my other complaints about the CU I, and others, find them quite valid and I've seen little to refute them.
1. The new HAM system lost quite a bit of diversity over the old.
2. The new weapons are less diverse...except in superficial graphics.
3. The new armor is less diverse....again, except in superficial graphics.
4. There STILL will be prefered and uber templates. The CU has changed nothing there.
5. Quite a few professions, such as entertainers, have been nerfed into oblivion. And, I would think as Smugglers we would be particularly sensitive to that but I guess it just shows you how self-centered even we are.
I am happy to be done with the mandatory buf sessions and happy to see some useful specials (brokenas they may currently be)and skill mods in our profession.
ThoughI STILL have not been presented with complelling logic that demanded we put up with an obvious decrease in overall diversity and depth that the CU dishes up just to realize these benefits.
And please don't tell me how sure you are that SOE will fix the professions they gutted for the Almighty CU...not if you've been a Smuggler all these years.
Xeranx
Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:27 pm
#87
"Hmmm. Yeah, I can see where that can seem- hypocritical. Let me explain...
In a solo group- I could make upwards of 500k an hour on a 3 hour buff. You do the math.
Doing missions on my own I can make about 9000k a mission.
In the CU- I couldn't finish a 9000k mission. I BARELY killed a Huurtion that was one level below me.
Now, I don't think missions will be THAT hard but I DO think they will take MUCH longer than the ones I did in the solo group. Therefore I wouldn't mind if a mission were doubled.
That's what I meant. "
I understood what you meant, but my point about credits being hard to come by during this period still stands. The time is set during a civil war. It's common knowledge that credits are hard to come by, but in game there is nothing demonstrating this hardship. People are supposed to be working to make ends meet. I understand that in a game it wouldn't be very good for it to be exactly that hard to make it as people would just leave, but even then there needs to be some degree of continuity here.
"Um. That's what the CU is doing- AND balancing templates. AND leveling weapons. AND monitoring crafting.
But it's doing it in a way that is ULTRA drastic- and rushed- and bugged. THAT's what you have a problem with. You can't tell me the system could be fixed with a few patches. We are on patch...what, 15? and it still isn't fixed. "
The CU, as far as I knew, wasn't supposed to balance templates, but the professions that existed. I still feel they could have done that in the old system.
I've been a melee fighter since release and I knew what it was to defeat others and be defeated. I excelled when it became a close quarter battle and I was SOL when it came to ranged combat. The ranged combatant would really have to mess up for me to hand them their tail. That is why I also picked up a bit of pistoleer so I wasn't completely wasted. What they needed to do in terms of balancing was bring up the other melee professions so they were on par with TKA. No one can deny that TKA was the most balanced profession in game. It had it's advantages and its disadvantages and when those disadvantages came into play it was time to play smart or pull your ranged weapon out.
Right now I'm seeing specials that root opponents. Melee fighters asked for that when we were getting kited all over, but we were denied. Now ranged combatants have the ability and melee fighters still have to make up 29m to close within their distance to fight a ranged combatant. If melee was overpowered in the current game, ranged fighters are so much more overpowered in the CU.
You're right about me having a problem with the drastic measure they're taking because it still doesn't make any sense to me. You're right about me having a problem with the game being rushed because I've already dealt with that hell and I have no intention of seeing it come back to bite me after two years. It also had the developers making very bad decisions with the game. They listened to those who wanted buffs to be stronger, and those who wanted to be able to craft armor better, but when it came to retract those decisions they couldn't make themselves do it. Yet they continued to compound their problems by making more bad desicions like they're doing now.
You're right that the move has already been moved. Now all I can do is test to minimize the damage if it's at all possible, but I still abhor the decision to make this CU. I remember members of my guild said this CU is great and the more I test it, the more I wonder if subliminal messages didn't pop up as they were playing. I keep finding things that would have worked in the current system and still made the game fun.
In a solo group- I could make upwards of 500k an hour on a 3 hour buff. You do the math.
Doing missions on my own I can make about 9000k a mission.
In the CU- I couldn't finish a 9000k mission. I BARELY killed a Huurtion that was one level below me.
Now, I don't think missions will be THAT hard but I DO think they will take MUCH longer than the ones I did in the solo group. Therefore I wouldn't mind if a mission were doubled.
That's what I meant. "
I understood what you meant, but my point about credits being hard to come by during this period still stands. The time is set during a civil war. It's common knowledge that credits are hard to come by, but in game there is nothing demonstrating this hardship. People are supposed to be working to make ends meet. I understand that in a game it wouldn't be very good for it to be exactly that hard to make it as people would just leave, but even then there needs to be some degree of continuity here.
"Um. That's what the CU is doing- AND balancing templates. AND leveling weapons. AND monitoring crafting.
But it's doing it in a way that is ULTRA drastic- and rushed- and bugged. THAT's what you have a problem with. You can't tell me the system could be fixed with a few patches. We are on patch...what, 15? and it still isn't fixed. "
The CU, as far as I knew, wasn't supposed to balance templates, but the professions that existed. I still feel they could have done that in the old system.
I've been a melee fighter since release and I knew what it was to defeat others and be defeated. I excelled when it became a close quarter battle and I was SOL when it came to ranged combat. The ranged combatant would really have to mess up for me to hand them their tail. That is why I also picked up a bit of pistoleer so I wasn't completely wasted. What they needed to do in terms of balancing was bring up the other melee professions so they were on par with TKA. No one can deny that TKA was the most balanced profession in game. It had it's advantages and its disadvantages and when those disadvantages came into play it was time to play smart or pull your ranged weapon out.
Right now I'm seeing specials that root opponents. Melee fighters asked for that when we were getting kited all over, but we were denied. Now ranged combatants have the ability and melee fighters still have to make up 29m to close within their distance to fight a ranged combatant. If melee was overpowered in the current game, ranged fighters are so much more overpowered in the CU.
You're right about me having a problem with the drastic measure they're taking because it still doesn't make any sense to me. You're right about me having a problem with the game being rushed because I've already dealt with that hell and I have no intention of seeing it come back to bite me after two years. It also had the developers making very bad decisions with the game. They listened to those who wanted buffs to be stronger, and those who wanted to be able to craft armor better, but when it came to retract those decisions they couldn't make themselves do it. Yet they continued to compound their problems by making more bad desicions like they're doing now.
You're right that the move has already been moved. Now all I can do is test to minimize the damage if it's at all possible, but I still abhor the decision to make this CU. I remember members of my guild said this CU is great and the more I test it, the more I wonder if subliminal messages didn't pop up as they were playing. I keep finding things that would have worked in the current system and still made the game fun.
ravingbantha
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:28 pm
#88
Hear's the problem as I see it... Yes the new armor and new weapons are great... I love it, I love seeing all this stuff. I love every combat class being effective with moves that work....
What I don't love is, every combat class being the same, pistols having the same DPS as a rocket launcher, No more will there be uber weapons crafter by high end weaponsmiths from top level loot drops. They ballanced Combat prof to the point that they are all the same... If your ranged you go Commando and whatever else you want for specials, so you can wear Assult armor and get the best protection. Or you can go Melee and pick up swordsman and wear Assult armor... oh wait almost ever hunter is a swordsman already, so not much of a change there...
Yeah it's great that we don't need buffs, but in PvP count on facing buffed fighters. You want PvP? Better hope that that the base hase no turrets. I went out the other day at LvL 80, fully armored, and buffed... I got 1 shotted by a large tower turret. How long do you think a base raid will last?
You think all the armor and weapons are great? well what's going to happen when all the AS and WS's quit because theres no point to their profession? How wonderful and diverse is the game when every weapon does the exact same thing. The only difference to most of the classes is what the weapon they use, but all specials can be done with each weapon.
I Hope that the Cu fleshes out alot better and once it goes live thigs are alot better in the light, but as it stands, no i for one am not happy, and hate the fact that I may be canceling my accounts, becuase I enjoy this game and don't really see any others that stand out as a possible next choice.
outlanderBZ
Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:10 pm
#89
HOTDOG, your posts are right on topic and as always the smuggler forum does not disappoint! very well said on both positive and negative topics by everyone. I have been very frustrated lately reading the forums and tonight i read this post and it brought a smile. well done guys
Message Edited by outlanderBZ on 04-21-2005 11:22 PM
FinderComnet
Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:45 am
#90
I was going off of the Doc boards numbers and conjectures when coming up with my guesses. All short term buffs are at most 15 minutes, meaning buff lines will not be as useful since they will need to be placed on the field to be able to get the maximum usefulness out of them. A smart combat team will have a Master Doctor with them in large scale PVP battles and PVE missions.
Yes, a fully buffed CL80 combatant will have an advantage against a non buffed CL80 combatant. I think this is as it should be. Yet if the non buffed combatant can draw the combat out for a long period of time, that advantage will start slipping away, on top of that, the non buffed combatant will gain a short time spam of having the advantage if the buffed combatant goes into a spice downer.
I was only able to do a few buff vs non buffed tests. All were 1 vs 1 duels and only buffs we were able to apply were used. Some spices and some 10% buffs. Neither of these buffs gave a clear cut advantage in single sets. No advantage could be seen and all the battles were even;with one person winning a fight and losing the next.
The frog buffs (50% health and 75% regeneration buff) were the closest thing we could tryto get to full buff sets, they gave an obvious advantage but not total domination.The regeneration enhancement, not the health buff, gave the clearest advantage in these fights. The buffed template wasa MBH/MCarbineer.The unbuffed templateswere MSmuggler/MBH, MCommando/MBH (this one was at a serious disadvantagedue to the weapons not working properly at the time, yet still worked well as long as it wasn't knocked down on the ground and unable to recover,) MSmuggler/MRifle, MSmuggler/MPistoleer, MBH/MCarbineer, (all the smuggler templates were me 
.) Since the frog buff lasts for three hours, theamount oftime a short term buff lasts never had a chance to play into thebattle. The buffed template would win on average2 out of three battles,it didn't matter what the unbuffed template was,it just mattered the skill of the player using thatspecific template.
.) Since the frog buff lasts for three hours, theamount oftime a short term buff lasts never had a chance to play into thebattle. The buffed template would win on average2 out of three battles,it didn't matter what the unbuffed template was,it just mattered the skill of the player using thatspecific template.Of course all these tests are subjective to the skill of the players involved and do not showa true test of how buffs will work in the CU. They were just done to give a hint to how they will work.
I agree, more testing is required. This really should be tried with a buff testing team and a couple of non buffed "control" teams. See the difference in how it actually plays out. I unfortunately do not have the resources (large amounts of testers or different bufffs) to do this. My guess is the buff team will have a large advantage in short spurts over the unbuffed teams but with good teamwork the unbuffed team can still get the same things done and at times have an advantage over the buff team.I wouldalsolike to see someone with access toall the viable buffs (meaning no frog buffs,) test things and see what conclusions they come up withon 1 vs 1 dueling.
jbezorg
Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:26 pm
#91
Couple of items
- How long does it take to apply the buff and what meterials are you using to generate the numbers? They should load TC with resouces with 1000 in all properties to get a general idea of what it can be pushed to.
- You know... people are creatures of habit. There will still be bufflines unless something else is changed. What is being done to move medics and docs back into the med centers? Will the application of long term buffs be limited to only Med Centers and residential homes very much like entertainer healing and buffs?
- Also, as I understand, buffs are a flat rate based off of the percentage of the max possible ( 3k @ CL/80 ). 300 long term, 1000 short term with good BE materials. 600 for pixie. So applied to a CL/80 character, we're pushing close to 5k and we haven't even begun to work in food?
If that is true, here is the scenario. It may sound fimiliar: - Two CL/80 players engage in PvP. One without buffs and one with.
- The one without buffs gets owned ( 5k+ hitpoint vs 3k hitpoints ).
- The one without buffs wonders what the hell happened and decides that in order to enter into PvP they have to be buffed.
It was my thought that the maximum of 10% for long term, 20% short term buffs were reached through a combinitations of various buffs. Not a limit per buff. Is this what we are looking at?
Based on the numbers provided in this forum.
Doc - Long Term...............................................+300
Garrmorl: long term - drink................................+300
BE Enhanced Vercupti: short term - food........+1000
BE Enhanced Doc: short term.........................+1000
Pixie - short term...............................................+600
6200 total hitpoints?
a 3200 buff?
107% increase?
Also, why the hell do BE enhanced doc buffs get +1000 when it was stated that spice was going to have the biggest short term buff because of the downer?
I think the numbers need to be almost cut in half regarding health. At the least.
Max Chef food & drink - long term....+150 max
Max Doc - long term ........................+150 max
Max Chef food & drink - short term....+300 max
Max Doc - short term ........................+300 max
Max Spice - short term........................+600 max
The numbers are also small enough to prevent the "Gotta Have" for any one type of buff.
(ADDED: In regards to health, Special items obtained through the village that give buffs should follow tha same guide lines +150 max long term and +300 max short term. )
Message Edited by jbezorg on 04-22-2005 12:32 AM