Smuggler Archive
Thread: The CU looks REALLY cool!!!
FinderComnet wrote:
jbezorg wrote:
You ask me to come up with ideas and ask me to address issues. Well I have stated my concern and that concern is"How to get players who are not 100% combat into the GCW and PvP and enjoy it and not get owned". You dedicate 2 paragraphs that basically state that they are SOL.
Wrong answer.
Nice final back handed statement but thats ok. To be able to enjoy pvp and the gcw, all they need to do is join a group and get their CL automatically bumped up to help deal with any NPCs one may encounter. Yes, your right, they still won't be able to go one on one with a combat template.... well, thats kind of the idea, a crafter shouldn't be able to go one one with someone who dedicated their skill points to fighting. Yet, with a group and fighting with strategy, they will be passable soldiers. With the old system and buffs, do you really think they would be any better off? Im' not talking about the god mode level we are at right now, I am talking about dropping everything down to the low level buffs and armor we were at in the first two months of the game. This is a moot point of debate, your not going to agree with me no matter what I say and I won't agree with you, so this will turn into an arguement instead of a debate, as your final back handed statement proves. Yes, I dedicated two paragraphs towards supporting my beliefs on crafters crafting and combatants fighting (now a third.)While you have dedicated post, upon post,upon post,for your arguement, with no possible solution, other than stick with the old abused system, which is already a moot point by now.
As to the others that took the time to reply to me. Yes, you have very good points unfortunately the old system would still leave a very large hole open for loot abuses not just buff abuses. The old system started everyone small and let buffs. armor, and loot, be the end all and be all way of making oneself *uber*, thus it would easily continue to fall into a buff this, nerf this situation. The best way to combat this is to make it truely character driven (which currently it is not, no matter how much you try to fool me into thinking so), And yes, I believe this new systemis farmore character and player driven than the old system. This new system is to allow the character to be moderately powered and give the characters a chance to get moderate to low powered itemsfor enhancements instead of uber loot, thus making it easier to tweak items and skills without full bore nerfs likethe game suffered previously. Youclaim this new system will suffer the power players as much as the old one, yes the power players will have a field day but they will not have as many things topower as high as they were before. The twinks can still twink for that little bit of extra advantage in this new system but they won't be able toget themselves to godmode as easily as they could in the old system. Band-aids for the new system will be able to help the scrapes that it will get.Band-aids for the old system, could not stop the gushing wounds it had acquired through out its life.
Well, I am leaving this discussion as it is, you will cling to your beliefs, just as I willcling to mine. No one is going to change anyones minds here with just words. Either you play the new system and get used to it or you don't and leave.Unfortunately SOE has given us little choice in the matter and givenus little voice in it as well (trust me on this, I hate that just as much as you, I would rather you be heard and they listen... the commmunity would be better for it and the game just might turn out better than it has or will be, under the new CU if we werelistened to more as a whole.)
FinderComnet wrote:
This is a situation that you and many others will disagree on and you won't be able to talk either side to see their view point.
I like the fact that in the CU, the new system is character driven and not buff driven. The current system is both character driven (# of abilities your character has) and player driven (person at the computer screen)
Buffs were required for a combatant to properly fight things of their actual combat skill and buffs were also used to overstep that combat skill for many other players. Absolutely false. Buffs were never required to fight things of one's own level or beyond. People fought things beyond their ability in groups. If this is not true, go and take on a krayt or GDK on your own and win.
Buffs were a player's choice. They saw buffs as a way to get an edge on anything and everything around them. They also saw buffs as a way to completely circumvent the HAM limitation in wearing armor. You could have adjusted your stats to be able to wear certain pieces, but you risked being a bit weak. That was a trade-off.
I also highly doubt so many people have actually played this game unbuffed as much as they say they do, Actually, I did, and I still do with my TKM/MSmuggler main. My ranged fighter is the only one who uses buffs and armor,and then again he only wears an ubese jacket and gloves. I've managed to do pretty well with him too. I'm sorry but I just don't think its fair to the fulltemplated combatants to allow a crafter into the same scale of combat as they can get into. In this way it is fair. You can either spend your skill points on being a hardcore fighter or you can spend your points on being a crafter. Heck, to tell you the truth, I don't even care ifcrafters get the health boosts that combatants get, it still wouldn't change the fact a crafter is NOT a fighter and the combat skill level should reflect that. Disagree all you want but the Dev's seem to agree that crafters should not equal combatants in combat, just as combatants shouldn't equal crafters in crafting. Sorry.
If you want to be able to fight at a moderate level split your classes and that would be more than sufficient to allow you to move around most of the worlds landmasses without too many problems. Combat level on most spawns are 27, if you meet anything higher than that go around it or get some guildmates or friends to help you.
The game was far to solo-centric and was far to dependent on armor and buffs for anyone to do anything at all. Character driven game systems are far superior than loot driven system. I am not against good loot but I am against good loot controlling the game systemto the detrimentof the characters. I believe they could have remedied this by not making high level NPCs carry the good loot. I think it's more realistic that the local thug has a rare gem than only a select group of NPCs.
Most of the people complaining say the new system doesn't feel like Star Wars. Well the old system was far worst. I never seen a single one of the main characters from the movies or read about a single character from the EU stop to get buffs before they went out on their adventures.Nor did many of them wear armor. This could have been stressed without throwing out the old system.
These things should be a great addition to the world, not a requirement. Agreed, and to my knowledge they were not required. It was boring as hell to try and acquire the various items that people "believed they needed" just so they could win a battle.
As far as the sounds of the original combat, the Devs already stated that they will be fixed and it has not been fully implemented yet. As far as the cheesy partical effects, maybe instead of just complaining about it, start giving them ideas to help fix it for those of us who don't like it. Say, have them allow us to turn the stupid things off in options just like they allow us to turn off shadows. If the developers actually listened to what the playerbase said this game: A) wouldn't have been released before it was reasonably ready, b) would have had its professions in a better position than it does now, c) would still have a good chunk, if not, all of its initial playerbase. The developers continuous inability to come here and communicate with the playerbase and think on the ideas presented have made this game worse than it should be.
The old system sucked and band aids weren't going to fix it. They tried band aids for almost two years and it didn't work. This change is a must for this game to continue with actual balance. If they decided to cut everything down like you say, it would only be a matter of months before it would get out of wack again. They basically made knee-jerk reactions to problems this game faced. And even then they compounded the problems that existed by introducing other items when it was protested against. The crafting patch allowed for master crafters to craft a bunch of items to sell. Items that novice crafters would never be able to compete with when they reached master themselves.
I understand your fear ofbeing in a world you love but forced to play with a game system you do not like. I really do. I have been playing in a game system I don't like since the games beta. And it's for that reason I shouldn't see you or anyone like you post blame on a system that was introduced by the developers and abused by the playerbase.
In the current system I can, and do, choose not to buff and not to don any armor. In the "CU" I will not have the option to not participate in combat. The way combat exists in this supposed upgrade is inescapable. No matter what happens I can't avoid it. If I need to make money from missions with combat I'll have to deal. If I want to acquire hides, mean, or bone, I'll have to deal.
riotcontrol wrote:
FinderComnet wrote:
To be able to enjoy pvp and the gcw, all they need to do is join a group and get their CL automatically bumped up to help deal with any NPCs one may encounter.
Dantooine/Dathomir/Yavin starport:
/shout lvl 80 solo group crafters sit in chair
/shout lvl 80 solo group crafters sit in chair
/shout lvl 80 solo group crafters sit in chair
Etc.
In the new system solo groups will be gone (Yay!). The concept still works, you can group up with some level 80 people and then get a level 80 mission and go out and do it solo. But you will get no more xp than you'd get by taking a mission your own level and doing it solo. Besidesgrouping upis be SO much faster xpif the group members actually go out and do all the missions together. Wow, imagine that... people hunting together.Haven't seen that since launch 
.
As have been said it seems most peoples mind are already set for or against the CU and they won't change lightely, so having long arguments about it seem pointless. However, to you who haven't tested it but are reading all the negative feedback here on the boards I say: try it out for a few weeks before passing judgement, I think in the end you'll prefer it over the old system.
SpinningCloud wrote:
With the new group sizes as small as they are,WHEREdo you REALLY think a Dancer/TKM with 2k health is go to be on the invite priority list?
If your my friend, you'll be at the top or the list. Its fairly easy to get a bunch of combat monkeys together but far more fun to game with your friends.
Inexplanationmy wife was playing a dancer/musician.Whenever she moved around, she would send me a tell to come and get her. I would team up with her, bumping up her CL to 80 and play her big bruising body guard. It at least gave her a chance to survive being single shotted and give me a chance to come in and tank for her. She and I actually had a lot of fun moving around that way. She liked having me hulking around, being the muscle behind her and I liked doing it. Now that is not saying that others will enjoy that, just saying it was a fun situation because we were friends. It made travel easier for her but still had a sense of danger. I considered it a mission to keep her alive, if she died, I would fail.
Although I will say that my over all views have somewhat changed.Just tooMANY people are having problems with the system. If there are this many people complaining about the level system, something must be off. I have even felt it.There are clear advantages forcertain template builds over othersin PVE. People with root can beat up creatures that have no range very easily, while others can't, and people who can tankcan take on ranged far better. Maybe thats working as intended but I am not sure. I am sure many of these advantages will balance out more once they get the stupid abilities working.Some classes, like the smuggler, only haveone or twoclear cut abilities working and I don't even know ifsome of thoseabilities (concussion shot) is working likethey should, I do knowmany arenot working like the text states theyshould.
I don't think going back to the old system is the answer but I also think there should be little tweaks to balance things out more. I think doctors buffs should be much higher than they are currently. People are allowed to use the frog to buff up their stats to 4500 right now (if your CL is 80), Why can't doctors be able to buff people by a minimum of 300 to a max of 1.5K? It will give a clear bonus to people that are not full bore combat monkeys and only be a little bonus to those full combat monkeys if they decide to get it. The regen on white and blue cons needs to drop some.Why can they regen faster than we can?I think entertainers need more than just the little bonus they give. I also think those bonusesshould be split up among the dancers and musicians to give more reasons to play the different classes.Maybe give the dancers the 10% bonuses they have currently but alsogive musicians something entirely different, perhaps a bonus to critical chances, or bonuses to regen rate of mind and energy. In this new revamp, many of the classes don't feel unique and special, it is imperative they get this fixed. I also think the level system should have more give, meaning the multipliers should not be quite as high as they are right now. Yes a purple and red should mean certain death but a blue surely should not mean as tough as a white or yellow.
Oh well, I have gone way off subject. I think the positives of the new system are far more than the old system and the future of it is much better. I also think the new systems problems are very numerous, to the point that it makes the old system look good, which needs to be fixed.
snorbarnet wrote:In the new system solo groups will be gone (Yay!). The concept still works, you can group up with some level 80 people and then get a level 80 mission and go out and do it solo. But you will get no more xp than you'd get by taking a mission your own level and doing it solo. Besides grouping up is be SO much faster xp if the group members actually go out and do all the missions together. Wow, imagine that... people hunting together. Haven't seen that since launch
Until the level defense/offense modifiers are gone, the solo groups (for protection of non-combat characters who just go around the planet with no intention to take missions or fight) won't be gone either. It's currently the only viable way to not get one-shot killed by a random mob, but perhaps two or three-shot killed.
As for this system being defeated, I don't know where you got that from. The current combat system was far from defeated in my opinion. The overwhelming effectiveness of buffs, armor, and food removed the challenges in the current combat system.
Guaranteed, if you remove the overwhelming effectiveness of buffs, and armor you will start seeing the challenges again. And is that not what the current system did? Now everyone is saying it's dangerous to hunt again. If that is all it took to make the game exciting again they could have made the changes in the current system and forgotten about their so-called combat upgrade and put their efforts towards getting the other half of MMORPG in the game.
It's because of that I can't "let it go" as you said. The fact that they could have done this without spending months upon months of figuring out how to port another combat system to this one doesn't escape me and continues to make me wonder why so many of us spent so much time with the game. The time they put into the combat upgrade could have been put in for some actual story driven content on the ground, but they chose to forego that for, what many are seeing, an absolute waste of time.
Xeranx wrote:
HOTDOG, you just made a comment about solo groups having people rolling in credits and you're saying they should increase mission payout? That doesn't make sense to me. In this time period credits are hard to come by. They should not be made to acquire credits any easier than they already are. In fact I would say they should be made harder to get because of the setting.
Hmmm. Yeah, I can see where that can seem- hypocritical. Let me explain...
In a solo group- I could make upwards of 500k an hour on a 3 hour buff. You do the math.
Doing missions on my own I can make about 9000k a mission.
In the CU- I couldn't finish a 9000k mission. I BARELY killed a Huurtion that was one level below me.
Now, I don't think missions will be THAT hard but I DO think they will take MUCH longer than the ones I did in the solo group. Therefore I wouldn't mind if a mission were doubled.
That's what I meant.
As for this system being defeated, I don't know where you got that from. The current combat system was far from defeated in my opinion. The overwhelming effectiveness of buffs, armor, and food removed the challenges in the current combat system.
Um. That's what the CU is doing- AND balancing templates. AND leveling weapons. AND monitoring crafting.
But it's doing it in a way that is ULTRA drastic- and rushed- and bugged. THAT's what you have a problem with. You can't tell me the system could be fixed with a few patches. We are on patch...what, 15? and it still isn't fixed.
Guaranteed, if you remove the overwhelming effectiveness of buffs, and armor you will start seeing the challenges again. And is that not what the current system did? Now everyone is saying it's dangerous to hunt again. If that is all it took to make the game exciting again they could have made the changes in the current system and forgotten about their so-called combat upgrade and put their efforts towards getting the other half of MMORPG in the game.
What about introducing new stuff? What about crafting? I'm not saying that this new system isn't overly drastic but the old system had been defeated. More than once, quite frankly.
It's because of that I can't "let it go" as you said. The fact that they could have done this without spending months upon months of figuring out how to port another combat system to this one doesn't escape me and continues to make me wonder why so many of us spent so much time with the game. The time they put into the combat upgrade could have been put in for some actual story driven content on the ground, but they chose to forego that for, what many are seeing, an absolute waste of time.
Let it go. The move has already been made. The best you can do now is help test the new system and save the baby that's been thrown out with the bath water.
FinderComnet wrote:
I don't think going back to the old system is the answer but I also think there should be little tweaks to balance things out more. I think doctors buffs should be much higher than they are currently. People are allowed to use the frog to buff up their stats to 4500 right now (if your CL is 80), Why can't doctors be able to buff people by a minimum of 300 to a max of 1.5K?
Larger buffs..., Isn't that heading backwards from the goal of the CU?
Are you saying buff to a cap of 3300 for long term buffs with buffs a flat rate instead of a percentage? Why not get rid of combat level determining hit points and simply base it off level?Your proposal would bring us back to the concept the buffs are needed. It would just only apply to the hybrid combat/non-combat player and lower level players.
And how the hell are they getting a 50% buff? What happened to long term 10%, short term 20%? ( TC kept crashing on me so I gave it a rest and haven't been on it in a little more than a week ).
Message Edited by jbezorg on 04-21-2005 03:54 AM
Message Edited by TomoRainer on 04-21-2005 05:22 AM
jbezorg wrote:
Larger buffs..., Isn't that heading backwards from the goal of the CU?
Are you saying buff to a cap of 3300 for long term buffs with buffs a flat rate instead of a percentage? Why not get rid of combat level determining hit points and simply base it off level?Your proposal would bring us back to the concept the buffs are needed. It would just only apply to the hybrid combat/non-combat player and lower level players.
And how the hell are they getting a 50% buff? What happened to long term 10%, short term 20%? ( TC kept crashing on me so I gave it a rest and haven't been on it in a little more than a week ).
Message Edited by jbezorg on 04-21-2005 03:54 AM
As Tomo said the 50% buffs are frog buffs that are only there for testing. What the point of that is, when those buffs won't be there in live, I have no idea. Unless of course the testing is to see how far they will be able to push buffs with out it inadvertantly "beating" the system. After testing with the frog buff and without it, the difference is really miniscule because of the level multipliers in PVE... the difference in PVP though is very large.
Now saying that, my idea is rather moot with the fact there is the 10% long term buff andup to a 30% short term buff (with good BE enhancers) that doctors are able to give on the field. Meaning somone with a hybrid class and a base health of 2000 on a team with a doc can get their health up to 2700 (not including spices and food). Mix that with being bumped up to CL 80 when teamed, this makes them viable in the GCWand will also allow themthe ability to play inhigh level content such as the DWB. In other words, I made a mistake on posting this idea without full knowledge of what was available in the new CUand now humble pull the idea because what the Devs came up with is far better and more balanced.
As I play in the CU, I find more and more interesting things that truely support and actually defeat what most of the complaints are.... the problem is, since its a new system, we actually have to find them.