Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband & Smuggling Missions
Ipseck wrote:
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
Ipseck wrote:
I'm sorta confused. How is it that PvE and PvP are different "playstyles" ? They're both parts of the game... How is PvP different from PvE. The people describing it make it seem like there's 2 seperate games here coexisting. I don't understand teh distinction. On the one hand... you're killing toons, on the other, your killing toons.. I don't get it. Its the same thing.
As mentioned earlier, some people play this game to roleplay and it is very true that few PvPers are real role players.
You don't fight in PvP to lose and in order to at least have a shot at winning it means you need to have almost the best of everything. I PvP all the time, and without a doubt being a good PvP player relies greatly on your items and your bank account. A casual player may not have the time, or the desire to shop for the best just so they can have a shot. You can be wound griefed, insulted and generally have your life made a living hell by another person. There are also exploits and other tricks that can make an honest player at a horrid disadvantage. PvP is stressful and contains too much one-upmanship to appeal to many gamers.
PvE works on certain mechanics that makes the opponent predictable and normally able to be defeated. The NPC's don't exploit or use third party programs to get an advantage. You can still have a good fight and not have to worry about having the top of the line equipment. It is less stressful, enjoyable and allows you to group with others without concern over who is what faction and just have good clean fun. You are easily able to roleplay as a solo character or within a group.
I role play and I pvp, and I pve. Ya know what, plain and simple, I just play the game. Neither one is a playstyle, they are both components to the game. It is just that One of these components has been stereotyped to such an extent that a small number of people have turned this into a 2-sided, us vs them type of war, when infact there are no sides. Its just one element to a much greater picture.
The point if it is two different playstyles is not in discussion. That is a fact and has been since before the first MMORPG. Just becuase you do not believe it to be or unwilling to believe it does not make it a fact. There are those that are just unwilling to put up with the type of player that a typical PvP situation brings with it. It is not the pvp itself in most cases but the "personality" of that playstyle in general.
The abusive folks are a very small minority, which can be handled by the /report command. I have yet to recieve any abusive behavior for losing to someone in pvp (and i've been at it a long time and lost alot). The only time you can be wound-griefed is if you fein death, which is a cheap move, so getting blackbarred really isn't a big deal, it just wastes some of your's and their time. The whole point of pvp isn't to just win. Its interaction with other players and factions. If we're going up against bounty hunters, no one should expect to win or even compete. That's the whole point in having bounties: to fear the consequences. There's nothing to fear if you can routinely beat them. You're bringing up alot of very minor 'what if's into the argument that really don't affect anyone. So what if someone cheats and kills you? you die.. the missions over.. you don't decay.. its just a minor inconvenience. No one person can make life a living hell for another. If you die, you die. If you see yourself getting blackbarred, stand up and take the deathblow. If someone's harassing you /addignore them. Someone can only make your life a living hell if you let them. Again, none of this has to do with smuggling, but the way certain people stereotype pvp. I invite anyone to come along on a casual day with me. I routinely go everywhere overt, often times unbuffed. You will see what its like to sometimes be hunted and sometimes be the hunter. It adds a little spice to the game. Not once have I been harassed or abused. Quite the contrary, I usually get/give compliments.
To be a serious PvPer, then yes, you do need the best of the best equipment, but to be hunted by the best of the best, you don't. You simply need to be able to avoid the best of the best, and THATs what being a smuggler is all about. Not avoiding some predictible AI, but evading the best bounty hunters and Imperial officers there are on your server. THAT is risk and THAT is smuggling.
To you yes, I agree. To me no, to other pve'ers.. well they have spoken themselves and you know their opinions also.
Ternque01 wrote:
Ipseck wrote:
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
Ipseck wrote:
I'm sorta confused. How is it that PvE and PvP are different "playstyles" ? They're both parts of the game... How is PvP different from PvE. The people describing it make it seem like there's 2 seperate games here coexisting. I don't understand teh distinction. On the one hand... you're killing toons, on the other, your killing toons.. I don't get it. Its the same thing.
As mentioned earlier, some people play this game to roleplay and it is very true that few PvPers are real role players.
You don't fight in PvP to lose and in order to at least have a shot at winning it means you need to have almost the best of everything. I PvP all the time, and without a doubt being a good PvP player relies greatly on your items and your bank account. A casual player may not have the time, or the desire to shop for the best just so they can have a shot. You can be wound griefed, insulted and generally have your life made a living hell by another person. There are also exploits and other tricks that can make an honest player at a horrid disadvantage. PvP is stressful and contains too much one-upmanship to appeal to many gamers.
PvE works on certain mechanics that makes the opponent predictable and normally able to be defeated. The NPC's don't exploit or use third party programs to get an advantage. You can still have a good fight and not have to worry about having the top of the line equipment. It is less stressful, enjoyable and allows you to group with others without concern over who is what faction and just have good clean fun. You are easily able to roleplay as a solo character or within a group.
I role play and I pvp, and I pve. Ya know what, plain and simple, I just play the game. Neither one is a playstyle, they are both components to the game. It is just that One of these components has been stereotyped to such an extent that a small number of people have turned this into a 2-sided, us vs them type of war, when infact there are no sides. Its just one element to a much greater picture.
The abusive folks are a very small minority, which can be handled by the /report command. I have yet to recieve any abusive behavior for losing to someone in pvp (and i've been at it a long time and lost alot). The only time you can be wound-griefed is if you fein death, which is a cheap move, so getting blackbarred really isn't a big deal, it just wastes some of your's and their time. The whole point of pvp isn't to just win. Its interaction with other players and factions. If we're going up against bounty hunters, no one should expect to win or even compete. That's the whole point in having bounties: to fear the consequences. There's nothing to fear if you can routinely beat them. You're bringing up alot of very minor 'what if's into the argument that really don't affect anyone. So what if someone cheats and kills you? you die.. the missions over.. you don't decay.. its just a minor inconvenience. No one person can make life a living hell for another. If you die, you die. If you see yourself getting blackbarred, stand up and take the deathblow. If someone's harassing you /addignore them. Someone can only make your life a living hell if you let them. Again, none of this has to do with smuggling, but the way certain people stereotype pvp. I invite anyone to come along on a casual day with me. I routinely go everywhere overt, often times unbuffed. You will see what its like to sometimes be hunted and sometimes be the hunter. It adds a little spice to the game. Not once have I been harassed or abused. Quite the contrary, I usually get/give compliments.
To be a serious PvPer, then yes, you do need the best of the best equipment, but to be hunted by the best of the best, you don't. You simply need to be able to avoid the best of the best, and THATs what being a smuggler is all about. Not avoiding some predictible AI, but evading the best bounty hunters and Imperial officers there are on your server. THAT is risk and THAT is smuggling.
This is exactly how I feel. The majority of people I PvP with (or "against") are people like you or me. There are caustic personalities, but if I help up the number of caustic PvE'ers I avoid on hunts or everyday situations, they would be the same.
I have been griefed (actually thinking about it) by the same amount of PvP'ers and PvE'ers. You don't have to hold a gun to have a negative effect on someone.
Ah, yes but you have a choice to PvP or PvE and who you want to hunt with. Further more you can easily use the /addignore command on any PvE'er and no longer have to put up with him/her.
I have yet to be successfully able to /addignore a PvP'er and have him not able to attack me... but if they add that command then I am all for it!
I play PvP respectfully, kill only who I need to kill, incap the rest and move on. Most kill everyone, but are respectful about it. Some are jerks to say the least. But the fact remains that I have probably more people on my ignore list from non-PvE encounters than PvP, and that's kind of humorous.
What I have a problem with is being FORCED into PVP with people I have basically no chance of defeating (The average BH is a PVP monster), Plus I dont want to PVP in the first place. Also, People will be PAID to hunt me down for using equipment that the DEVS THEMSELVES made necessary by nerfing my ability to fight things, and now I will NEED those few extra damage/speed points just to compensate for my reduced capabilities!
Also, Equipment I spent MILLIONS gathering from all over the known galaxy, from the best weaponsmiths/armorsmiths on the server, Will instantly become illegal, and if I walk to the local starport, it will be CONFISCATED by some npc goon, I'll probably be fined too! I have 1.7 million in the bank, and frankly, its nowhere near enough to replace HALF of my weapons, much less weapons and armor. If I could log onto the SOE boards without endangering my safety, I would tell them (In strong but polite terms) that this is a completely stupid idea, and would ruin the game. It may make it more "Real" for some people. But theres a fine line between "Real" and unplayable. For me, this would be unplayable. And for several others as well I believe.
Every time I get used to the game, sit back, and think, Ok. They screwed me, but I can deal with it, they sink to new lows, and make the game worse to play. Cant play a popular class, cause the devs dont want there to BE popular classes. Cant have good equipment cause the devs dont WANT there to be good equipment. Cant have good weapons cause it makes you too effective. Cant fix bugs that have been in game since beta, gotta drop in more eye candy Impossible themeparks to kill peoples equipment and force them to become 24/7 combat template gods. Cant have non combat content at all cause who cares about people that cant whine at the tops of their lungs for weeks at a time. Cant fix the game exploits or do anything about whole guilds of griefers, they "Saved the game". Gods ,this makes me sick sometimes."
Ipseck wrote:
rockweaver, have you read any of my posts?
seriously... This isn't some pvp vs pve war. we all want the same thing in the end and thats the content that being hunted by bh's would provide. why is it so important to you that it be an npc?
I whole heartidly agree... we want content. We even want BH's to come after us. What we do not want however is forced PvP, we want choice and we want to keep our playstyle while enjoying the game.
And I'll reiterate my question:
whave you ever PvPed?
I know this was not directed towards me.. but yes I have tried PvP in this game as I was told it was different then UO, Shadowbane, DAoC, and other games I have played. So I know what I am saying when I say I do not like it nor have any use of it nor want to participate in it at any form.
It seems like you're pulling one of those jewish-passion arguments, and saying something is horrible without ever going to the trouble of actually seeing the movie.
Message Edited by Ipseck on 06-18-2004 11:42 AM
RellikCro wrote:
Ah, yes but you have a choice to PvP or PvE and who you want to hunt with. Further more you can easily use the /addignore command on any PvE'er and no longer have to put up with him/her.
I have yet to be successfully able to /addignore a PvP'er and have him not able to attack me... but if they add that command then I am all for it!
Read in my other posts.. I have put more people on ignore on PvE or non PvP escursions than I have on PvP ones. The fact is that you can put anyone on ignore. The fact is that you will die from a BH. If a player delivers the DB or a computer delivers the DB, it should not matter. You have the power... the choice (i love that word) to add a PC to your ignore list. It's true. You have the choice to pretend that they aren't even capable of speaking to you, hell you can program your computer game to do it for you... ain't that a damn!
The fact is that my ignore list is full ofjerks that don't even PvP, people who are disrespectful, whatever....
Ternque01 wrote:
Listen RellikCro. I have shown with little uncertainty that you have the toolsand choices in your smuggler career to never have to experience a player bounty hunter in your life.
I have furthermore given 5 very strong ideas to compliment a PvE playstyle.
I have even gone so far as to explain how GreenMarines' idea allows for some viciously fun roleplay.
What's your story? You keep disecting everyones posts and making the same point over an over again. The point that you have made has been addressed at length and debunked at length. While my compassion as a person remains to judge your point as valid, it also judges it as either blind or not moving on.
I've got a problem with this because it's is degrading the moral of this thread. I suggest you start addressing my counterpoints or join my personal forum ignore list.
If all you want to be is hunted by a NPC BH, just say so. Caylin said he'd crap his britches if Boba Fett or IG-88 came to bust his mellon. Just say it, repeat it, but for the love of god man I can't tolerate listening to the droning of "the right to choose is universal" "the right to choose is universal" "the right to choose is universal" when you have an assload of choices slapping you in the damn face! It's utterly rediculous. No more will I say to you until you start tearing apart the rebuttles I have presented you.
Easy, I started where I left off where is was thick in debate... as soon as I saw ppl were working on a solution I stopped... I can not delete posts so I can not remove them. But I might still comment when I see things I wish to discuss.
SBRD0C wrote:
Relick...
You have some very good points, but there is one recurring theme that is just bugging me to death...
Your percieved persecution of your Playstyle, and your sweeping Generalizations of PvPers.
I tell you now that I am a member of a whole Guild of RP PvPers, and together with other like minded guilds we have built the largest city on starsider(Crystal Hollow by 1 member as of last weeks census.. Click Hereif you don't believe me)... and very few if any of us meet the steriotype you keep describing, especially since when we discover a Leet Dude Among us, we tell him to grow up or leave.
So your arguments that all PvPers are out to grief you, is wrong. point blank.
No joke. The group I roll with takes special care to be respectfull to other players.
I can't tell you the number of times I've been mercilessly slaughtered by someone and sent them a tell saying "ouch". I can't tell you how rewarding it is to have them respond with something human. These are other players. If you want to be DB'd by a computer program as opposed to another person.... that's the worst. That's like dying from dropping your electric shaver in the tub with you. I much prefer to be strangled, LOL. OMG I crack myself up 
RellikCro wrote:
Easy, I started where I left off where is was thick in debate... as soon as I saw ppl were working on a solution I stopped... I can not delete posts so I can not remove them. But I might still comment when I see things I wish to discuss.
)
Ternque01 wrote:
Let's as a community go into whatthe concept offorcingaplayer into PvP. Forcing would imply that the player would unwillinglyhave no choicein a particular matter. Theseplayersdo have a choice. They can choose not to skim off their employer. They can check their ass just like they should as a worried smuggler. If needs be they have the totally available to take themselves off the terminals.
They should not have to 'check their ass' if progression is linked to missions that have PVP consequences when they should not be. Progression in this profession should not require PVP. In fact, progression in any profession in this game should not require PVP.
I'm sorry bro, but messing with the law has consequences. If you are going to toy with the law and get away with it (i.e. no player bounties) then you should put the work into what it takes to do that.
It does not mean the consequences have to be PVP oriented.
It is entirely within RP standards for a smuggler in the Star Wars universe to check to make sure no one is after him. That is a consequence for playing with the law. And it's so emersive it kills me.
Fine, do that if you are interested in PVP. A player who has no wish, ever, to participate in a PVP encounter should not have to.
It's simple and unrefutable, if you are going to make a living breaking the law, then part of the work should be checking your ass.
I never argued with that, it's the idea that your idea of a consequence is 100% pvp oriented. That is not right.
It's not FORCED, and it remains to be seen just how bad a smuggler has to mess up before he hits the terms anyways, so we have no idea how harsh it will be. Our best bet is to lobby to have smugglers who fail their missions or get caught have a significantly less penalty than a smuggler who decides to cheat his employers. No one is being FORCED right now to do anything. No one is dying. GM's system is very simple, clear, and effective, but it just needs to be properly inserted into the game.
Any smuggler mission failed leads to their visibility being increased. Being caught can lead to your visibility being increased depending on what the missions hand you for the illegal cargo. It has been said by TH that missions will be linked to a smuggling form of XP, as there is no such XP that means a new form of XP related to smuggling itself is a reward. In order for the player to get that XP they will need to do missions.
Missions in this proposal are linked hand in hand with PVP when they should not be, if the player has no interest in PVP.
anger leads to hatred.
hatred leads to suffering...
I suggest you push for lighter penalties for loyal (but clumsy) smugglers and harsher ones for dishonest ones. That's all I can say Caylin. There is no point in claiming that the system will be hard on "the smuggler just trying to make it". I futher appologise for claiming that "it's just a piece of cake". But Caylin, checking your ass is part of the job, and you owe it to me as a correspondant to admit to that. What do you think slicing is partly designed for? How long would a criminal live if he never checked his six? Not long, not long at all. I have yet to hear any good rebuttal of this point - the RP point that part of a smugglers job is to know what authorities are after him.
I've never argued against knowing the authorities are after you. I have argued that your only solution you are working with is PVP. That is again,not acceptable to those who do not wish to PVP. I've come up with a solution MONTHS ago. You agreed with it that I noticed when I repeated it.
Fighting aside (from myself also), we need to lobby for a balanced solution for smuggler missions that let's the little man make it and the big man take the big risks.
I don't want to hear any of this "FORCED" stuff anymore. Players have a choice to cheat, players have a choice to be careless, players have a choice to take their names of the terms.. how many more choices do you want to give them before there is no penalty for the law?
It is forced when missions failed lead to visibility as does being caught while on the mission. As missions will apparently be linked to smuggler progression it is not good game design to force players into a pvp situation.
This doesn't even mention that our missions themselves will be PvE, and more than likely (you know this) easy as hell to complete successfully. All PvE missions in this game that are designed to be solo'd are a joke. The only thing I personally want from them is my cut!
We don't know how hard they will be. I hope they are enough to make me weep in frustration, make obscene oaths with pagan gods and wish upon a falling star to actually finish my mission while remaining fun.
Take this box from this point to this point. You don't even have to kill anyone either. You don't have to steal the shipment.. blah, blah, blah.
Both of our "too hard" and "too easy" viewpoints on evading bounties both sit in muddy water, but there is one thing is not uncertain: players have tools to check, lower, and otherwise null player bounties and visibility. They have the tools, and they will be given ethical decisions to make. This "it's too hard for them" argument lies on a gravely slope at the top of a very tall precipice. I don't want to hear the word "FORCED" again. How about the word "RESPONSIBILITY"
They are being forced. For reasons above. Again if you can't figure this out, there is nothing to be discussed until you do.If you look for it,it's there. I can see it, you should be able to as well.
The only reason why i push for this simplistic viewpoint is that something too complex can't be coded well. Make a machine with 1000 parts and it will fall apart much faster than one that does the same thing with 10. You have always liked detail Caylin, and that's cool. But this is the barebones of an extrodinary contraband system. You see many flaws and pick them out, but the fact remains that the system is implementable as it is,it just needs to be balanced so that smugglers don't end up on a BH term every other day.
You don't force a player who has no interest in pvp, skilling up in a skill tree, into a pvp situation without their consent. That is what is happening. What I've proposed solves that, is simple and works within the set mechanics of the game. If you are interested in PVP fine, check those terminals. A player that has no interest in PVP should not have to though.
Why is this so hard? We call for a balancing, ensure the tools that lower our visibility work, and viola - workable smuggler system. And I don't even want to hear that smugglers shouldn't be FORCED to check their six for authorities. That's part of the job and as my correspondant you should admit to this because it's common sense.Every smuggler who takes up a factory crate and hides it in his backpack will be checking their visibility if not just for the sheer fun of being able to do it. Hell i'm gonna be checking my visibility every night. I'm gonna be doing it while pouring chocolate sauce all over myself... er.. TMI... I mean, do you know how cool it is to even be able to scan a computer for info regarding your wanted status? That VERRRRY damn cool
They should have to be. I wont have to. You may want to.Yet they are being forced. Again, think on this for a bit.
If smugglers are too worried that they will die all the time that they check their visibility as much as you suggest, then they have problems and serious ones. I don't feel that SOE should cater to worries as unwarranted as those.
They can have consequences, but they should not be forced into PVP consequences as they will be if they wish to take part in missions.
Sorry for the tone, but damn.. that's how i feel. Much respect to ya!
And I to you, but I'm dead serious that having them forced to check the terminals actively when I don't need to. That is bad game design and should not be implemented. Seriously think on this, please.
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse! 
Ternque01 wrote:
Caylin said he'd crap his britches if Boba Fett or IG-88 came to bust his mellon.
I never said that.
There must be consequences to those player who have no interest in PVP and having their names appear in terminals. I would honestly love to seeplayers chased by NPC bounty hunters if they really biff things up. That can be an NPC consequence but while that would be immensely cool, I would live for the PVP one.
Though many other players would not. They want a pve consequence and they are entitled to one. The act of smuggling should not by default entail a PVP consequence.