Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband & Smuggling Missions
>>From how I read it, and how I see it actually written in both examples the Smuggler is Witholding and gaining visibility. Both times.
The "Witholding Cargo" section of the original post states:
"Withholding cargo or pay will result in the smuggler earning a small bit of visibility."
GamerProX wrote:
It aint forced PvP if you stay away from the stuff that could bring it.
So if Smugglers get an NPC BH to hunt them, can I get an NPC Smuggler to slice my stuff for me? Its only fair right?
Duckfat wrote:
Caylin,
I understand what you are trying to accomplish and I admire you for trying to get as much RP in the content as possible but IMHO the devs are going to try to implement a much less complicated system for smuggling. Therefore no matter where you go there will only be one system of contraband and it will not be dynamic based on whether the imps or rebs control the sector. The game is designed with the imps as the police and that is how we have to deal with it. Although it may be important to voice a wish list I think it is much more important to try to stay within the realm of feasibility and at least try to make the system that will most likely be implemented better. Therefore we will most likely be stuck with the static contraband of spices and sliced gear and whatever the devs decide to add as contraband.
I have not been seeking a new process so much as helping others examine the differences between the players who do not want to PVP. I have also tried to help others get an understanding of what smuggling means, and that the act of smuggling may not always center around the person hauling around obviously illegal items. I am trying to help those who do not approve of a forced pvp consequence being overrun by those who do. They are both valid viewpoints. It's not so much how I roleplay my character that is causing me to go on about things, it's the perception of what a smuggler is.
Time and time again smugglers have said they are not thieves in these forums. I feel the same way in regards to being considered a criminal. I may be a criminal and I may be a thief, but the essence of smuggling does not require me to be either.
I dont really think we can change what is contraband but I think we can change the basic system. The problem with the system that I think you dont really like and what most people may not like is the fact that they have very little control on their visibility and may be forced into nonconsentual pvp. I have been trying to get people to read my solution of implementing a different smuggler reputation system with no luck. Please read it (it is a bit long so maybe that is why people just look at the thread and leave but I think it has alot of merit) and make some comments.
The problem I have is that in all probability, given how GM has outlined this, players who are trying to progress up the smuggler skill tree that have no interest whatsoever of being involved in PVP, are going to be forced into it regardless. Defining the area around that is what I've tried to accomplish here. Once that is set, it is much easier to find a solution that all can be happy with.
I've argued over the semantics of this stuff half a year ago on and off the forums. This is nothing new to me just this time we are working with a developer viewpoint as opposed to a player viewpoint.
So far the easiest solution I've seen is to align smuggler missions with factions. All this switch stuff is extras that I personally don't feel adds much to the immersiveness or to the solution. It's just extra stuff that makes it more confusing. Side rooms, windows... boot up option... it just gets increasingly complex.
If smuggler missions were aligned with factions, there is no chance of PVP being unconsensual if visibility is only adjusted when a player takes part in those as a member of that faction.
If the player is neutral, he/she should be able to take various missions of a smuggling nature without the PVP consequence. Thus enabling them to skill up the smuggler profession without having toconsent to PVP.
This easilyleaves room for *special* missions whereplayerswithout a faction alignmentcan decide to have a pvp consequence if they *wish* but it can not be a required consequence if PVP combat is to remain based on the consent of the player as it should. Where the reward is equaled by the risk involved.
The increased bonus of using sliced equipment entails extra risk. I have no issues with it having a PVP consequence. In PVE I have no need to use sliced equipment, it's just an extra perk.
No special flags, no TEF's, no new requirements. Existing mechanics that we can work with.
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse! 
GamerProX wrote:
Im so shocked that Smugglers are even THINKING about an NPC Bounty Hunter, thats the biggest insult you could ever do to the whole BH Community, you guys were the first ones to get us excited about possible Smuggler/BH content, now you want it to be an NPC? Why? just cause a few guys what to do the illegal stuff with zero risk? It aint forced PvP if you stay away from the stuff that could bring it.
So if Smugglers get an NPC BH to hunt them, can I get an NPC Smuggler to slice my stuff for me? Its only fair right?
It is forced PVP is EXP progression requires us to take these missions. Thunderheart previously said as much and it is a requested feature of our revamp from time beyond remembering. That missions be required for the smuggler to progress.
However these missions are so laced with PVP consequences that a player has no choice but to participate in PVP if they wish to gain experience in Smuggling.
So they have every right to ask for an NPC consequence.
HOWEVER. I don't agree with them getting all the perks and benefits that a PVP active player gets for the extra risk they assume.
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
It is forced PVP is EXP progression requires us to take these missions. Thunderheart previously said as much and it is a requested feature of our revamp from time beyond remembering. That missions be required for the smuggler to progress.
However these missions are so laced with PVP consequences that a player has no choice but to participate in PVP if they wish to gain experience in Smuggling.
So they have every right to ask for an NPC consequence.
HOWEVER. I don't agree with them getting all the perks and benefits that a PVP active player gets for the extra risk they assume.
>>HOWEVER. I don't agree with them getting all the perks and benefits that a PVP active player gets for the extra risk they assume.<<
100% agreement here.
This isnt special rights, this isnt saying one class is inferior. This is being bluntly honest. PvP has more risk, more content, and by golley it requires the use of more then one player (*see later). As such the reward by deffinition should be greater.
*MMOs are about cooperation, interaction, and mostly about multiple players. These games are designed to award people that "work" together. If you look at say EQ. The reward that a group or a raid can achive is almost universally greater then what any individual can achieve alone. A battle could be no less difficult for a soloer then a different battle for a group, but because the group worked together the reward should be greater. Here we are seeing a proposal somewhat similar. PvP is a type of player interaction. As such, it should be rewarded better then "solo" play.
Ternque01 wrote:
Geevo, I see your point on how NPC and PC BH's can never be equal.
It's the whole "separate but equal" idea. NPC and PC BH's are separate, but they are not equal.
I have some easily applied solutions, but quite frankly i'm starting to like GreenMarine's ideas for lowering visibility/getting of the terms. Hire a smuggler to check it, and if you need to get off them, hire a smuggler to take you off them.
I'm tired of the endless squables on this thread. Those arguing have not stopped and said, "well you know this might work"
For those who feel "forced" into PvP, try looking into the idea of "responsibility". Not to be hard, but grow up.
I don't think the police are "forcing" me to the ground after they catch me five times selling crack-cocaine, now do I?
They are changing the game. The new rule is that you don't have to consent to PvP unless you join a faction or break the law. I dunno. Seems pretty fair to me.
GM has given viable ways to get your visibility lowered or your bounty erased, you have the tools to stay out of PvP, I suggest you use them.
Ternque01 wrote:
Smugglers have the choice to not skim off their suppliers and bosses. GreenMarine has given adequate tools to monitor visibility, lower visibility, and to remove themselves from the terminals. I see no reason why a PvP-wary smuggler could not use the tools at thier disposal to not enter PvP effectively.
Smuggling isa dangerous job, but if a smuggler chooses to rush through missions quickly accumulating visibility, then they bear the responsibility of that visibility.
They would have to actively monitor this when any other player who does not care whether they are involved in PVP can continue to play as normal. You are penalising their gameplay and restricting their game time to use it as they wish.
A player who has no interest in participating in PVP and takes missions to skill up smuggler, should not have to actively check and take away from their enjoyment of the game to see if they are on terminals and act to prevent it. Don't punish them for having a different playstyle than your own and that is what you are wanting to do.
>>They would have to actively monitor this when any other player who does not care whether they are involved in PVP can continue to play as normal. You are penalising their gameplay and restricting their game time to use it as they wish.
A player who has no interest in participating in PVP and takes missions to skill up smuggler, should not have to actively check and take away from their enjoyment of the game to see if they are on terminals and act to prevent it. Don't punish them for having a different playstyle than your own and that is what you are wanting to do. <<
But either way PvP or PvE they have to be punished. What makes more sense. Writing a system where they have to add more and more stuff in to punish both sides or focus down say your breaking the law this is the consequences. At this point Im pretty much ready to say either design it in mind as a PvP game or as a PvE game. Screw political correctness. SoE figure out where your bottom dollar is coming from and build a good game for it. This walking the fence crap trying to appease both sides is ultimately ruining the game. Sure some would be ostracized by such an action. But this wouldnt be the first MMO to cater to one side or the other
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
So far the easiest solution I've seen is to align smuggler missions with factions. All this switch stuff is extras that I personally don't feel adds much to the immersiveness or to the solution. It's just extra stuff that makes it more confusing. Side rooms, windows... boot up option... it just gets increasingly complex.
If smuggler missions were aligned with factions, there is no chance of PVP being unconsensual if visibility is only adjusted when a player takes part in those as a member of that faction.
If the player is neutral, he/she should be able to take various missions of a smuggling nature without the PVP consequence. Thus enabling them to skill up the smuggler profession without having toconsent to PVP.
This easilyleaves room for *special* missions whereplayerswithout a faction alignmentcan decide to have a pvp consequence if they *wish* but it can not be a required consequence if PVP combat is to remain based on the consent of the player as it should. Where the reward is equaled by the risk involved.
The increased bonus of using sliced equipment entails extra risk. I have no issues with it having a PVP consequence. In PVE I have no need to use sliced equipment, it's just an extra perk.
No special flags, no TEF's, no new requirements. Existing mechanics that we can work with.
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 06-18-2004 06:14 PM
Jhovial wrote:
But either way PvP or PvE they have to be punished. What makes more sense. Writing a system where they have to add more and more stuff in to punish both sides or focus down say your breaking the law this is the consequences. At this point Im pretty much ready to say either design it in mind as a PvP game or as a PvE game. Screw political correctness. SoE figure out where your bottom dollar is coming from and build a good game for it. This walking the fence crap trying to appease both sides is ultimately ruining the game. Sure some would be ostracized by such an action. But this wouldnt be the first MMO to cater to one side or the other
Correct, they have to be punished. There needs to be adequate penalties for those who do not wish to pursue a pvp consequence to their illegal activities when progressing up the smuggler skill tree.
If you remember the astromech though, most players in the game are neutral and are not pvp oriented. Those who participate in PVP are the minority.