Smuggler Archive
Thread: Tiggs: Getting to know the Smugglers and our profession!
DrevenStrobe
Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:26 pm
#66
I personally find it to be very constructive...
In a cathartic sort of way...
Chavabegga
Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:31 pm
#67
They will never post here because of our bitter cynical attitudes towards everything and we will never change our attitudes till they post here. A viscious cycle.
DrevenStrobe
Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:00 pm
#68
I really hope that if Tiggs has started reading this, she realizes that the little flirty / fluffy answers she's provided to other threads like this just won'tcut itin this forum.
I hope that when she does choose to reply, she comes in here with her sh!t together.
Tiggs said: "BRING IT!"
Consider it brung...
Message Edited by DrevenStrobe on 09-13-2004 10:06 PM
KefkaQ
Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:19 pm
#69
DrevenStrobe wrote:
I really hope that if Tiggs has started reading this, she realizes that the little flirty / fluffy answers she's provided to other threads like this just won'tcut itin this forum.
I hope that when she does choose to reply, she comes in here with her sh!t together.
Tiggs said: "BRING IT!"
Consider it brung...
Message Edited by DrevenStrobe on 09-13-2004 10:06 PM
Broadsides ready to be brought, cap'n!
true_Kieran
Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:20 pm
#70
JWing wrote:
Well said.
Welcome Tiggs
In this small little section of the forums resides the quietest, sneakiest and sly Smugglers from all across the galaxy.
"Our own lil cantins if you will."
Were very excited on getting some freah eyes on our profession.
/greet whole heartly
"Yep, and the first "spiced" tea is on the house.... along with any additional since we can't sell them anyway and have to get rid of all the crates somehow..."
Selko
Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:15 am
#71
The best thing about this forum is the number of intelligent posters that offer ideas and help to all who come. For the most part our posts are critical and constructive, but no one shies away from telling the truth as they see it. Unfortunatly the very thing that keeps me coming here is whats driving the Dev's away. I believe Tiggs is at a loss to deal with our community. She also knows that the fluff she spouts in other forums will get rejected like rancid cheese on a sour stomach. The Devs know that we want answers and not a "He he he, I found a rare baby today" post. So they avoid us and we wait hunched low like a stalkingcat ready to pounce on the first red name that enters.
I truly don't believe that theDev's sitaround drinking beer wondering howthey can get another laugh out of our anguish. I do not believe they are bringers of lies,false hope yes but outright lies? No.The Dev's, they are victims and members of the drive for the almighty dollar. Everything they do is in hopes of making a dollar for Sony and Lucas Arts, hence we get shuffled to the back of the line again while JTL is top priority. They know that JTL willbring in a ton more gamers, couple this with the release of a Japanese edition at the same time. Of course our measly15 dollars month can't compare to 300,000 new subscribers.
So should we let them have it?Hell yes we should. I will let Caylin do my talking he has a great list of things and I am sure Fishbrains post is in there somewhere, along with a few incendiary devices.
Message Edited by Selko on 09-14-2004 01:16 AM
Message Edited by Selko on 09-18-2004 02:09 AM
Sapperlight
Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:54 am
#72
I agree, Selko. I don't think that the devs intentionally sabotage our profession or the community at large. I think that they suffer from a lack of dedication. This is just a job to them, while we expect it to be a passion. Sure, GreenMarine seems to be passionate and dedicated, but what other devs are at that level? Consider this: if you had designed pistoleer, how would you feel about the fact that over half of the specials don't work 15 months after launch? Sure, there are bound to be bugs and problems initially, but 15 months? If it were one of the professions I had designed, I would put forth the extra effort to ensure that it got the attention it needed. But if I was just punching the clock, I wouldn't bother, knowing that someone else would get to it eventually. Unfortunately, that seems to be the prevailing attitude of most of this dev team. Let's see if Tiggs is any different.
Chavabegga
Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:23 am
#73
Sapperlight wrote:
I agree, Selko. I don't think that the devs intentionally sabotage our profession or the community at large. I think that they suffer from a lack of dedication. This is just a job to them, while we expect it to be a passion. Sure, GreenMarine seems to be passionate and dedicated, but what other devs are at that level? Consider this: if you had designed pistoleer, how would you feel about the fact that over half of the specials don't work 15 months after launch? Sure, there are bound to be bugs and problems initially, but 15 months? If it were one of the professions I had designed, I would put forth the extra effort to ensure that it got the attention it needed. But if I was just punching the clock, I wouldn't bother, knowing that someone else would get to it eventually. Unfortunately, that seems to be the prevailing attitude of most of this dev team. Let's see if Tiggs is any different.
I think more of the devs have a real passion for this game then just GM. I think that most of them really do like this game, the jobthey do, and they want to see everything fixed and make everything better. Unfortunately time is a very precious commodity and they can have their priorities changed by people from higher up who do not have the same passion for the but instead are influenced by the almighty dollar. Even if all the devs really really want to do a smuggler revamp but upper management says no, work on an auction channel, guess what, its the auction channel that will get implemented.
Now, its understandable that the devs must do what their boss tells them to. Even if they have passion for the game it is still a job and in order to keep it they must do what they are told. HOWEVER, if they want to do something and say they are going to do something but then are told to do something else, if they fail to truthfully convey the change(the why, then when, etc) they are just as liable as those that ordered the change. Being ordered to lie or mislead is no excuse to lie or mislead. Its a matter of principle and character and money should never be part of that equation.
true_Kieran
Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:50 am
#74
Chavabegga wrote:
Even if all the devs really really want to do a smuggler revamp but upper management says no, work on an auction channel, guess what, its the auction channel that will get implemented.
Upper management would only do this if there was real money going through that channel and a certain percentage of that money would go to themself. Upper management is in for the money, an auction channel doesn't get you money, a smuggler revamp might get you money because people tell their friends how amazing the "Han Solo" profession is.
Message Edited by true_Kieran on 09-14-2004 03:58 PM
Chavabegga
Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:24 am
#75
true_Kieran wrote:
Upper management would only do this if there was real money going through that channel and a certain percentage of that money would go to themself. Upper management is in for the money, an auction channel doesn't get you money, a smuggler revamp might get you money because people tell their friends how amazing the "Han Solo" profession is.
Message Edited by true_Kieran on 09-14-2004 03:58 PM
Then why is it we got an auction channel but never got a smuggler revamp? And its not because the Devs hate us.
true_Kieran
Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:49 am
#76
Chavabegga wrote:
Then why is it we got an auction channel but never got a smuggler revamp? And its not because the Devs hate us.
Because adding a channel is easy and the smuggler revamp is hell of a job. Maybe they don't hate us, but they don't care much about us either, if you like the idea of lazy devs more than hating devs ok, but the management is in for the money, and keeping the community interested is good for the money.
Message Edited by true_Kieran on 09-14-2004 05:49 PM
Chavabegga
Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:06 pm
#77
To us smuggler is an important part of the game. To the SW purists smuggler is an important part of the game.
To the majority of people who play online games, smuggler is a very unimportant part of the game because it is not an "uber" bad ass combat profession. For those people it is all about Jedi. Those are the people SOE management worries about losing so they have the devs implement things that appeal to that group of people.
Us diehard smugglers won't leave the game because our profession isn't "uber" and full of new content every 3 days. There is no pressure to fix us because we aren't going anywhere. There is, however, the large mass of people that switch games all the time and if there is not something spectacular that caters to their wants they will leave. That is why the Jedi profession takes so long to achieve. Its to keep the powergamer playing and it completely disregards the other group of people who may want to play it simply because its a part of star wars and who do not care if its "uber".
Thats why smuggler ideas get no attention. They are cool and fun for us, the current group of smugglers who play smugglers no matter what. But those ideas won't get the power gamers to play SWG and stay with it. Once the game has a system that can keep the nomadic power gamers in the game then the other pieces, like smuggler, will get some attention.
Does this mean we should threaten to quit unless our demands are met? No, thats just stupid. The way things are done caters to the wrong crowd of people but those are the people SOE needs to compete with other games over. The stable mass of us SW fans are not going to switch to WOW or something because we are here to play a SW game. We just need to hope eventually the game turns around and becomes refocused on its original goal: a SW game that was playable by a casual gamer instead of becoming the same game as everything else just with a SW backdrop.
As for the auction channel, no the smuggler revamp was not held off because of that. It is an example of something though. Instead of working on things that needed tom be fixed devs were told to implement this auction channel. Granted the channel is easier to do then alot of the fixes but the simple fact that it is getting done BEFORE the other stuff can be completed shows that there are misplaced priorities somewhere. Now I don't think its the devs themselves. They made the game and like all true craftsmen want to make it perfect so therefore they would like to fix what is broken. Unfortunately they are limited on time and must do what the people who pay them tell them to do. And contrary to popular belief it is not us who pay them. We pay SOE, SOE pays the devs.
DrevenStrobe
Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:47 pm
#78
Ok...I just read her opening post on the other "Getting to know..." threads...
And I think I understand now why she feels that this thread isn't "quite the format" she wanted...
She wants to know what is MOST important to us individually...not as a community. What is #1 on our personal priority lists?
Well...*looks back at his previous posts*...
I guess for me, it comes down to one thing.
And surprisingly, it isn't smuggling...or the lack thereof. Nope...I know that will come with the revamp, which at this point will be the day after never...but still...I know GreenMarine will do his best to give us at least that much when the time comes.
No...for me, the most important thing on my list is...
you ready?...
positive?...
ok...
COMMUNICATION!!
I'm talking about bonafide, two-way dialog with the community. Wether through Caylin, or (God forbid) an actual Dev post on the forums.
If you are going to mess with something that is going to affect the community, talk to us about it, especially if the effects will be negative.
Examples:
Spice downer nerf
Apparently the Devs knew they were going to screw up the Spice downer. They've even given Caylin some kind of reasoning for it...but then told him he can't share what the reasoning is. Knowing the reasoning for it would at least help the community understand why it was done. Doesn't mean it would make it more acceptible, but at least we could say..."Oh...ok."
Panic Shot
Changed along with Warcry, and basically rendered useless. Despite numerous appeals to the Devs...we actually thought they might be listening on this one. We even got a "We'll re-evaluate this and get back to you" from JustG. However, that was pretty much the end of it. It went live without further discussion, with only a cursory "Combat Balance" comment tossed in our general direction.
Publish-9 Smuggler "Revamp"
Never, leading up to Publish 9 was any thought given to this. Which is why the community basically exploded when we saw our much anticipated "revamp" proposal. Despite that, we did get excited about one thing in that proposal...Liik spice. Poison mitigation spice...it was gonna be great...to alot of people, it meant a shot in the arm for the dead spice market. When the "revamp" was scrapped, TH assured us that Liik was still "In the design." P-9 came and went, and still no Liik spice. But Doctors got poison and disease resist buffs in a mini publish. Yet no reason was ever communicated to Smugglers as to why they were left out...again.
And most recently...
Auto-pull removed from crates of slicing tools.
Surely there was a reason for THIS. It even showed up in the P-9 patch notes. So, obviously the devs knew they were going to impact us. Was there ever any discussion about this with the community? No. And what's sad is, our correspondent is as much in the dark as we are. TH said it was done as a change to a different system and that it was being looked into, and would be changed back. P-10 went live...and guess what...tools STILL don't auto-pull.
Slicing Exploit Fixed (WOOO WHOOO), but no documenation of the fix in patch notes.
Would it really have been so difficult to put the words "Fixed known Slicing bug/exploit" in the patch notes? Come on...there was a feedback thread posted, but no way for us to even know that we needed to give feedback on this. I didn't know myself until I reada rumor on this forum, then logged in to check for myself to see if I needed to either celebrate if it WAS fixed, or to complain if it wasn't. I figure a feedback thread is posted in order to find out if the latest patch worked or didn't work. Kinda hard to give feedback on something that isn't in the patch notes. If the above line had appeared, we could have at least said "Yes it's fixed."...or said, "No it's not fixed, try again." We really do want to help, but you guys make it really tough on us.
I hope I'm clear on the whole COMMUNICATION thing.
Hell...we can't even get adequate descriptions put in our skill boxes...so, you see, the Dev's can't even explain why we can't get a simple TEXT update to the Smuggler profession.
So like I said, wether through Caylin, or through actual Dev posts on the forums. I would just like to be informed if there's going to be a change to an important part of the profession. Maybe even through that dialogue we could come up with an alternate solution that would benefit both the Devs and the profession...or a solution that would be less severe than cutting us off at the knees.
But the COMMUNICATION has toSTART from the Dev side of the fence. And, IMO, it should start by communicating with Caylin and the other Correspondents. From what I see across the board, a majority of the correspondents feel that they're as much in the dark as their communities are when some kind of negative change hits. So, communicate these changes to the correspondents...then...and this is the important part...LET THE CORRESPONDENTS COMMUNICATE THE CHANGES TO THEIR COMMUNITIES...along with the reasoning behind the changes. If nothing else, this will at least soften the blow when the change actually hits.
Oh...and by the way...this would also go a long way toward restoring Dev credibility with the player base.
EDIT: Added note about the lack of communication regarding the recent fix of the Slicing exploit.
Message Edited by DrevenStrobe on 10-11-2004 03:37 PM