Smuggler Archive
Thread: The Debate: Slicing Experimentation
Well Caqoshor, chances are, if we give them their 'pick a slice'
They will come with only 2 of each item.
Meaning we get less money as we are slicing less stuff.
just thought I'd hint at that.
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse!
Solo4114 wrote:
If the only tool that experimentation counts for is the knife, then I'm not sure experimentation will really work, practically speaking. First off, novices should absolutely get the same amount of experimentation points that masters get. I know that's going to ruffle the feathers of the masters, but I'd say that even if I was one (I'm a Slicer, by the way, so I'm pretty close).
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
Well Caqoshor, chances are, if we give them their 'pick a slice'
They will come with only 2 of each item.
Meaning we get less money as we are slicing less stuff.
just thought I'd hint at that.
Yep. Nothing makes me smile like a customer who hands me a crate of 10 VKs wanting that perfect speed slice. Please, please, pleasedon't let us choose.
Also, if this were done at the Master level the slicer would be wiped out. Leave my slicing alone - it worksquite well thanks!
Does anyone have a model for working in experimentation to our tools that the devs could (and would) implement that serves any purpose besides making the marketers happy? I still couldn't care less about the resource gathering required of experimentation, but I still don't see a way it can be shoehorned into our slicing ranges (or even slightly expanded ones) without being a nerf. Wanting experimentation for the sake of experimentation is bad -- just ask the DEs. I'm all for it if it can be done in a reasonable way (like I think spice experimentation can) but noone has come up with anything yet.
Any of the 125+ smugglers who voted for "B" in the poll thread have any ideas?
Wale wrote:
If you want to experiment on items.....become a crafting class....Smugglers are NOT a crafting class...We HOT-WIRE weapons and armor for better performance at the cost of condition of the item...We should be able to do this with what ever quality tools we can get....the skill is in the knowledge ofslicing not how great your clamp is at telling you blue or red...or that super-duper lazer knife that cuts the wire...thats all it does...cuts the wire.....how can a great quality knife cut the wire any better to create a better slice....Think about it...Its not Swoopbike Science.....Its illegal activites of hot-wiring items for suped-up performance that dont last as long as the original design....
Experimentation in spices makes more sense...not that I am for this either
Wale....Master Smuggler.....and if you all get your way....Novice Crafter of Experimented Items that Should Not be Experimented on
( well if I experiment on my butter knife I should be able to make a better PB&J sandwichs...right? )
Agree 110%. We are smugglers not crafters. What we do in the area of slicing is more akin to hot wiring a vehicle than building one. You don't need a "high OQ" pocket knife to hot wire avehicle just the knowledge of how it is done. The "knowledge" is what the customer ispaying forand the willingness of the smuggler to"break thedictates of the Empire".
It is the skill they are paying for. For this reason the Master should have bonuses to slicing that increase their "knowledge" of slicing perhaps increasing their ability to influence the outcome as far as the type of slice they get ie., Speed vs. damage or Encumberance vs. effectiveness etc.
I'm against Experimentation.
To me, Slicing is the only Tree left Currently that's worth a damm..(If the PanicShot Change Does go through). And I see the asking for Experimentation as a Self-Nerf.
I Am a Smuggler, Not an Artisan, or a Miner, or a Smith.
Leia, "You came here in that Pile of Junk? Your Braver than I thought"
Han, "That's the Fastest ship in the Galaxy"
It didn't look Pretty, Wiring was Sliced to hell for Performance.
Most Everyone Wants to use Han or Talon as the Prime Examples of what a Smuggler should be. I never read about them paying attention to quality of Resources. Just grabbing what was around and making it Work. Let alone Making Drug's, Oopps I mean "Spice". (That's another thread)
I have NO desire to run around trying to buy"The Best" possible resources, Or pay attention to resource shifts and go "Oh I got to go place Harvestors!!" Oh Wait, I'm not an Artisan I don't know where it is.. Plus, Idon't want to be one. Let alone get gouged on the "Uber" Copperout there.
All I make are Knives and Mol.Clamps. and as stated we don't even make the WUK's or AUK's. I don't see the Benefit to the Headache.I seriously doubt theyare not going to make The Slicing Percentage go any higher. and the Range is spread good enough. So, what's to Gain? What do You Really Think will be Such a Big benefit to Experimentation??
I don't even want to be able to Choose what I slice. At one time I did, not anymore... Hell Slicing is the "Riskiest" thing we do really. as the game works. And, that's not using a clamp or clicking the wrong color wire and screwwing up the Slice. I like hearing customers comments when I hit a 35% Dam. Slice on that weapon.. or a 43% Encumb. Slice on a Composite Chest Plate.
Smuggler to me is more Like that 5 word thread. McGuyver, Duck Tape, Swiss Army Knife and Inginuity.
Take away the Experimintation Points and Leave it the Hell alone.
I Also think that the Idea of Certified use Clamps is dumb. I know many a Doctor who went up the Enhance Tree without ever crafting any of the Doctor Crap. But as they Level they Medicine use goes up.
We Should Not Be Crafter's, We are Smuggler's dam it. We are suppose to Transport Black Market goods and aviod detection of the Law.
I don't ever remember seeing Han say, "Crap, let me pull out a Crafting tool.. Chewie toss me some of that High Grade Copper!! I need to make a Knife.." So he could tinker/Fix the Falcon. Plus, A knife that has only 10 uses? crap, I have had my Leatherman and my Swiss army for 15 Years. lol.
A Hypothetical Slicing System Revamp: A radical idea.
As slicing currently stands, Smugglers are at the mercy of forces beyond their control, aka The Random Number Generator. Slicing is not skill-based. If it were, Masters would definitely get better slices than Slicers and they wouldn't have to worry about 11% Effectiveness slices on that 200k Composite helmet.
I think we've firmly established that the community will not accept experimentation on slicing tools having any effect on slicing. Last time I checked, the poll was running about even on that debate. We can all agree, however, that we'd like a little more control as long as it doesn't gate the Slicers and Novices.
My proposal is to have actual slicing skill mean something, not tool quality. This would require the creation of a +Slicing skill mod.
The mod would be distributed like so:
Novice: Slicing +10 (1 point)
Slicing 1: Slicing +20 (2 points)
Slicing 2: Slicing +20 (2 points)
Slicing 3: Slicing +10 (1 points)
Slicing 4: Slicing +20 (2 points)
Master: Slicing +20 (2 points)
Total: Slicing +100 (10 points)
Now, you're wondering "What do I use the points for?" Well...I'll tell ya.
You use the points in the new slicing interface that will appear for weapons and armor (maybe terminals) when you use the new tool. "What new tool are you talking about?" The new "Jury Rig", which, in the spirit of professional interdependence, is a Master Artisan schematic.
Slicing now works like this:
1. Choose "Slice" from the radial menu.
- You get the standard Slice dialogue we all know and love now. 2. Apply your clamp or FAN as usual and get the standard red wire / blue wire message. 3. Cut the first wire as directed by the clamp.
Now, here's where it gets fun.
Instead of immediately cutting wire #2, you are now presented with a new choice.
- A. Cut wire #2, in which case it will work like the old random system and you take what you can get.
- B. Insert a "Jury Rig" device.
4. Choose to insert a "Jury Rig."
This opens a new interface, which looks a lot like a crafting experimentation interface, and the options depend on what you are slicing.
-Mission Terminals: A single line of 10 "experimentation" boxes appears. "Well, at Slicing 1, I only have 3 points, what now?" Ok, 3 points, that will let you "experiment" up to 30%. Terminals will grant a bonus of 10%-60%, which is a 50 point spread, you had success on all 3 points which grants you 30% of the 50 point bonus, giving you a total bonus of 25%. At Master you could use all 10 points, for the possible full 60% increase.
*More on how success and failure is defined will be discussed later.
-Travel Terminals: Same concept as the Mission terminals, except the bonus is a 10%-60% decrease in travel costs.
**The same one-line interface could also be applied to Vehicles for durability.
-Weapons: You get 3 lines of 10 boxes: one for speed, one for damage, and one for HAM reduction. Weapon slicing, as a whole, has a range of 10%-35%, with the points I have at Slicing 2, I can achieve half of that range on any one of the 3 attributes. At Slicing 3, I can get 60% of it; Slicing 4, 80%; and Master, 100%. This would place the caps at 22.5%, 25%, 30%, and 35% respectively.
You could choose to increase only one attribute, or split your points and increase 2 or all 3.
-Armor: 2 lines of 10 boxes: Encumbrance, and Effectiveness. Same general idea as weapon slicing, Encumb caps out at 45%, Effect caps out at 35%. Dump all your points into one, or split and go for both.
5. Finish up your "experimenting", click "DONE" on the interface, and cut the remaining wire.
**Success and Failure in this system.
Using points in this system results only in 3 outcomes:
Success: 10% increase (or one box)
Failure: Nothing happens
Critical Failure: 10% decrease (loss of a box)
Should you crit fail to 0%, it simply means the slice will increase the chosen attribute by only the minimum amount. Or this could be made to fail the slice completely.
While this system sounds like a lot more work, I also think it would be a lot of fun...sort of a Slicing minigame. Always gotta wonder when that crit fail is coming. It relies mainly on our skill level, brings the "pick-o-slice" into the system at a level so as not to lock novices and Slicers out of the business, yet still keeps Masters as the elite slicers. Tool quality is left completely out of the equation, since it seems to be a split decision among the community.
And, most importantly, the current system is left intact. Using a clamp without a "Jury Rig" would be equivalent to using a crafting tool without a crafting station. You'd simply take whatever you can get.
Considering that the crafting experimentation system is already in the game, it would probably just be a matter of tweaking the code to work for our purposes.
If you look at the Weaponsmiths, Armorsmiths ... with the upcoming crafting revamp they are mostly unhappy about the experimentation changes.
Due to these changes, I have decided that I am NOT for experimentation on Slice/Spice.
I'll make my points blunt and quick:
1. Decreasing the slicing range to 25-35% from 15-35% really accomplishes nothing. If
we had been given 25-35% at launch, we'd be wanting 30-35%. 15% isn't all that bad guys,
can't you see that the argument for getting better slices is all relative.
2. Smugglers are all about luck. Without the potential for danger, you're just a comfy
crafter. (Note: for those of you who are quick, this point appears to contradict point
#1. Currently, a 15% slice is seen or "percieved" to be a danger by our community.) Also
of note: slicing is currently the only form of risk associated with our profession.
3. Any slicing experimentation ideas that just make it more of a pain in the butt to get
somewhat better tools, which isn't too much of a problem for the rich among us, while
contributing little else outside of decreasing the range of a slice which will further be
comlained about (ex. "Awww man! Not a 25% slice! Give it to me on the house.")
4. The bottom line is that "less is bad". If a customer doesn't get the best, or near
best slice possible on his/her gun, they will be disappointed. Get used to disappointing
people, you're a smuggler, that's your job. Hell, the fact that no matter how good I am,
but can still still disappoint a customer makes this profession COLORFULL to me. Now
to those of you that say that I'm just sadistic to my customers and enjoy giving them
bad slices, you are way off track there. I LOVE DEALING WITH PEOPLE WHO THINK DEALING
WITH ME IS RISKY AS HELL. I don't know how to put it better. To see people wanting to
"market", to "please the customer", or to "achieve", it makes me sick because it would
throw out all the fun that i really enjoy as a smuggler. That is how I really feel about
slicing experimentation. I'd drop master and only keep DF if it were changed.
5. Time is better spent by the devs fixing other parts of our profession. They only have
so much time they can spend on smuggler before they have to move on. I'd want the
"smuggling" content to be as best as it can than be made one iota less because they chose
to invest their time into making slicing more "cushy". Wouldn't you want to spend the
limited time you have playing SWG trying to figure out a way to get past a blockade then
traveling to a field on a remote planet just to plant some boring old harvesters?
Harvesters! They're cool! EXCITING!!!!!!
6. This game is designed for people with limited time to play the game. Having to hunt
resources can be a major pain to those short on cash and time. I would hope that those
not as fortunate to spend hours on end doing whatever they please, can get to experience
the joys of slicing without having to be shut out of slicing by the competition.
7. Attitude. Making the favorite part of smuggling to me a pain in the rump by having to
explain to ungracious and demanding customers that "I offer the best services available sir!"
and to be expected to deliver that with a smile is an insult to being a smuggler. Customers
don't DEMAND things from me! I've got a modified DX2. They don't like what I'm offering,
they could be on the other side of it, and I'll sure as hell pull the trigger. Slicing
experimentation wh0r3s out our "attitude". Welcome to McSlices, how may I help you?
8. Slicing as it stand is simple, balanced, and effective. As many other intelligent people
have pointed out, slicing experimentation really adds nothing (25% will become the new
complained about low), it will make slicing "not fun" for those who can't play the game very
much because they can't "compete", and it makes what is normally a casual, fun thing to do a
pain in the butt.
9. The fact is that slicing IS attractive to players currently, and we make a boatload by
having to slice multiple weapons in the hope that our clients get a good slice.
C'mon guys, I'd really rather spend my time running a package of spice past a checkpoint, or
shipment of spice through a blockade, then hunting down critical materials and bickering with
clients and "competing" with other smugglers. The only competing I want to be doing is
blasting rival factions if you catch my drift...
Slicing should be experimentable, but not in the way you think.
To clarify: The ammount of experimentation points available should be the same from SNovice to Master. However, the ammount that a Smuggler can experiment on a given quality of an item should be less at low levels than it is at Master. Therefore low level Slicers would be able to modify weapons with as many points as a Master, but could specify less where those points went and would create more "average" Sliced weapons, thusly:
Slicing level - Maximum amount of exp. on 1 attribute
Novice - 5
Slicing1 - 6
Slicing2 - 7
Slicing3 - 8
Slicing4 - 9
Master - 10
Example: Say a Slicer with Slicing 1 has 10 experimentation points to spend, and can attribute a maximum of 6 to a given quality (in a window similar if not identical to the existing Experimentation pane), then the low level Slicer can attribute 6 to Damage and 4 to Speed. A Master by contrast can distribute points as they wish, but the overall amount of experimentation stays the same.
In Addition I would like to see slicing of weapons and armour operate on a %age basis, so that there is more benefit to Slicing a slow gun for speed than there is of slicing an already fast one. This would add to the decreasing returns effect and make for a true variety of weapons.
All this would mean that Masters would have business from those who need a particular attribute above all else. In this system I would also suggest a scale of "decreasing returns", where the first point of experimentation on a given attribute has greater effect than the second, which has greater effect than the third and so on.
Point number - %age effect
1 - 5%
2 - 4.5%
3 - 4%
4 - 4.5%
5 - 3%
6 - 3.5%
7 - 3%
8 - 2.5%
9 - 2%
10 - 1%
All of the above presumes that Speed is balanced when considered against damage in the same Slicing patch. I would also like to see additional slicing attributes available, such as HAM costs for specials and range modifiers.
Tool Quality (WUKs, AUKs, Knifes) should affect not the number of points of experimentation, but the likelyhood of experimental failure.
On the Subject of FANs: FAN quality should be a measure of the accuracy of the tools prediction. MolClamps should not be as they are now: instead a MolClamp should give you a %age chance of a retry if you get it wrong, with the chance being determined by tool Quality.
YMMV
okay this is easy to say our slicing is good but weak, Maybe we could slice things for mods or have other things to slice such as speeders droids or have a way to craft thing for other professions to use that would act like a slice when used on harvestors or houses hell even weapons and armor anything
maloso